Everyone Has Worked Out Our Weakness (except the coaches)

[Cranky Franky 2,061]

Earlier this year I had the opportunity to ask Brendan MaCartney a question - I asked why we were overusing handball as it was getting us into trouble.  He didn't give me a particularly clear answer.  I pointed out a game where Watts, Oliver & I forget who had something like 50 handballs & 20 kicks between them & pointed out this wouldn't win us many games.  Again I didn't get a clear answer.

All my mates have been exasperated by the same thing and at most games fans are screaming to Melbourne players to kick the friggin ball.

Against Collingwood there were at least 6 centre bounces where we won the ball & then handballed it around until we turned it over.

Now I notice Malthouse's comments about us  "a game style that changed dramatically from running the ball to overusing it, too often during games.

It seems the penny has dropped for everyone except the coaching staff & the players.

[Biffen 12,943]

Big wide looping handball is good and short handballs back and forth do nothing.

A quick kick forward out of a pack is often marked by an opponent.

A kick along the ground can be just as useful, followed by wide targets by hand.

"One twos" are the greatest time waste but sometimes needed to get out of a pack.

in attack the little handball is dumb.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,072]

Is it because our players simply do not know how to 'spread'? Too often they all just stand around a contest handballing to each other, with nobody attempting to clear the pack after they've released the ball, or before receiving. Then you get the inevitable handball to feet which slows everything up enough to create a secondary contest and the rubbish starts again.

I'd love them to kick more, but the number of times our kicks out of packs are smothered is annoying as well. So we're either handballing or kicking when it's not on. Need to get the spread right for mine.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

Breaking free into space to kick the ball requires two things: longer handballs to players who have spread quickly into space, or outright strength and speed to run the ball into space.

Clearly other sides have put work into us to slow down our handball release.

And we lack the players to bust into space with run and grunt.

We also lack players ahead of the ball who know how to find space. (We also lack ball carriers who can hit those players in space.)

I'm not convinced starting more players behind the ball is ultimately sustainable unless we can free up players ahead of the ball. Peter, Paul, etc. It's got to be a shock tactic used sporadically. 

I think we are on the right track - fingers crossed - and natural development still has its work to do.

Ultimately I think we have a few too many physically undersized players who don't look like reaching a big enough size. I also think we lack two zone busting speed merchants. Hopefully our footy department knows we lack grunt and outright speed.

[ignition. 1,466]

Our skills by foot are also atrocious (bar a few of course).

Clarkson is renowned for saying "if you can't kick, you can't play". It makes me wonder how many of our best 22 would fit into his lineup.

Is one reason for this because our team also trains by overusing the handball?

I hope over the off season the coaches revisit the basics of spreading, kicking and rapidly hitting lead up targets.

The club also needs to look into getting a kicking coach (or at least place some emphasis on kicking technique).

 

[Tony Tea 2,809]

8 minutes ago, ignition. said:

Our skills by foot are also atrocious (bar a few of course).

Clarko is right. But half of good kicking is having someone to kick it to. We need to be better able to provide options for the kicker.

[Sydee 4,442]

Interesting observation about Clarkson and kicking - I never thought and still don't think Frawley is an elite kick seems to get a game!

[Little Goffy 14,552]

So, in summary, we lack kicking skills, outside run, inside grunt, ability to spread from a contest, ability to offer leads up forward, ability to spot leads that are offered, and lets not forget our defence has gaping holes all day.

 

[CityDee 738]

I reckon we are handball happy need to bring the ratio 2-3 hanballs per kick and at center clearances with 3-6 fowards kick it quickly. 

I think structurally we let ourselves down with only one player up foward to kick to usually out numbered so the handball gets overused . 

[TGR 1,367]

2 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Earlier this year I had the opportunity to ask Brendan MaCartney a question - I asked why we were overusing handball as it was getting us into trouble.  He didn't give me a particularly clear answer.  I pointed out a game where Watts, Oliver & I forget who had something like 50 handballs & 20 kicks between them & pointed out this wouldn't win us many games.  Again I didn't get a clear answer.

All my mates have been exasperated by the same thing and at most games fans are screaming to Melbourne players to kick the friggin ball.

Against Collingwood there were at least 6 centre bounces where we won the ball & then handballed it around until we turned it over.

Now I notice Malthouse's comments about us  "a game style that changed dramatically from running the ball to overusing it, too often during games.

It seems the penny has dropped for everyone except the coaching staff & the players.

Slow one paced mids = penchant for congestion = need to handball more often.  Do the maths.

 

SEN and Coincidenceland are anti-handball lots.  The "just kick it" mentality of the red-seats is the lowest common denominator in football.  My fellow tiger supporters microwave memberships, but we don't yell out "just kick it".  That died when Hafey went to Collingwood.

 

If you put 20 footballers in a 15m x 15m space, I challenge you to get away with a clean kick.  Geography, physics and common-sense.

[TGR 1,367]

1 hour ago, Sydee said:

Interesting observation about Clarkson and kicking - I never thought and still don't think Frawley is an elite kick seems to get a game!

You haven't heard the story of Robert Campbell then.  Like Frawley, Clarkson has instructed 'try and wait to give off by hands', but if you must kick, know your limitations and always go percentages.  The other thing Clarko ensured is the Frawley's options gut ran and blocked to create an easy option.

 

Go and check Robbie Campbell's KTH ratio under Clarko.  He kicked it one day and Clarko lost it.

[dimmy 1,307]

38 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

So, in summary, we lack kicking skills, outside run, inside grunt, ability to spread from a contest, ability to offer leads up forward, ability to spot leads that are offered, and lets not forget our defence has gaping holes all day.

 

And we have got the Macdonalds, Tyson,Watts ,Lewis,Vince, Jones, Oliver , Weiderman , JKH, ANB, Stretch, Brayshaw etc etc . It is a wonder we won any games at all..

[jnrmac 20,080]

3 hours ago, ignition. said:

Our skills by foot are also atrocious (bar a few of course).

Clarkson is renowned for saying "if you can't kick, you can't play". It makes me wonder how many of our best 22 would fit into his lineup.

Is one reason for this because our team also trains by overusing the handball?

I hope over the off season the coaches revisit the basics of spreading, kicking and rapidly hitting lead up targets.

The club also needs to look into getting a kicking coach (or at least place some emphasis on kicking technique).

 

He did recruit Vickery and Frawley....

[Wrecker45 3,378]

3 hours ago, Sydee said:

Interesting observation about Clarkson and kicking - I never thought and still don't think Frawley is an elite kick seems to get a game!

Yeah but he is elite compared to Fitzy. I've seen him have a fresh airie.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

3 hours ago, Tony Tea said:

Clarko is right. But half of good kicking is having someone to kick it to. We need to be better able to provide options for the kicker.

This reminds me of the arguments I had with peanuts on here in 2007.

[64" 97]

Just kick the bloody ball for christ sakes!!!

[TGR 1,367]

Jordan Lewis's kicking efficiency may read well for instance, but he is locked into Hawthorn's game-plan in the their peak when they played keepings off.  Visualise Lewis getting the ball, and he will look sideways for a safe short-medium kick.  But this slows us up.  Worked for the Hawks, not us.  We are at our best when we gun-and-run from half-back; to make use of Garlett goal-side on his opponent; the mobile Watts, and Jesse, if he is having a good day.

 

Kicking efficiency needs to incorporate safety and conservatism.  How hard is it to look backwards and see a teammate on his own and hit him.  A kick that is looped and slightly off-target will be marked.  But your opponents press up more, squeeze you, and at the end, we have lost territory.  Bit like the old Steve Waugh not-out to boost the average, the old Jordan Lewis look sideways and safe kick, is a tricky way to make yourself look good to the detriment of the team.

 

Compare the guy, who doesn't go ultra safe and looks forward first.  Goody, like most coaches, wants us to change lanes, but if you have the opportunity for 'instant offence'  in front of you, take it.  Danger does.  Selwood does.  Selwood might not be the most elite kick, but he doesn't run/look sideways and backwards with easy safe options, that boost his kicking efficiency rating.

[TGR 1,367]

4 minutes ago, 64" said:

Just kick the bloody ball for christ sakes!!!

To an even number 1-on-1s inside our F50?  Yes

 

But to a 3v1 (opp to MFC) outnumber? No

[TGR 1,367]

Haven't got the stats, but I didn't like our kick-outs in 2017.  Too conservative, safe, predictable and an impediment for ball moment.  The kick long and ultra-wide, makes offensive coast-to-coast too hard.  Clarkson, in Hawthorn's resurgence this winter, ditched the "ultra-wide" long boundary kick-out that his contemporaries default to.  Instead, he instructed the kicker to go for the point of the square.  Pretty courageous.

Football clubs need to realise it is OK to give up a goal if you can get 2 goals your way.  They need to be more daring. 

 

 

pTGR

[Deecisive 1,709]

having numbers around the ball up's results in 1 meter handpasses as we everyone tries to pass it to someone under less pressure. We often have an extra around the ball and allow opposition players to play an extra back of two.  So when we inevitably kick short out of the pack we usually find one of these spare opposition players cleaning up and turning our attack into their attack. we have too many instances where we kick into an outnumbered forward line.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,072]

3 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

So, in summary, we lack kicking skills, outside run, inside grunt, ability to spread from a contest, ability to offer leads up forward, ability to spot leads that are offered, and lets not forget our defence has gaping holes all day.

 

But we're on the right track.

[TGR 1,367]

12 minutes ago, Deecisive said:

having numbers around the ball up's results in 1 meter handpasses as we everyone tries to pass it to someone under less pressure.

Like the Swans of 2005, credit to Roos and co, we are actually good at it.  So while Finey and Co., complaining about Oliver's KTH ratio, I actually am not too fussed about it.  I know why he has to do it with the congestion that is around him.  Credit to the kid, he is in the middle of heavy traffic more often than not.  Give me him over the plethora of outsiders we had in the 2000s that sat outside waiting for easy ball.  Worked well in low-pressure games that counted for nothing.

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

We go handball crazy because they have created a game plan around one paced, ordinary-kicking midfielders. They are always under pressure, so they have to handball it around to get a spare man, because that spare man needs all the time in the world to be a chance of hitting a target.

Put a couple of dashing wingman and a couple of lightning forward flanks around the contest and watch how quickly they get it out of the congestion and into space for some run, carry and precise kicking. 

[Gawn's Beard 378]

Without trying to oversimplify things, there's effectively two competing game styles:

Option 1: Your slower, keep possession style of play where you focus less on winning contested ball and more on keeping it once you have it back (i.e. Hawks of the previous years). This requires a high level of skill to kick through zones, strong defensive structures to absorb forward 50 entries and high level pressure when in certain areas to win the ball back. 

Option 2: A run and carry game where you attempt to run in waves through zones, limiting the amount of kicks (Melbourne / GWS / Adelaide). This relies on you winning the contested ball and getting it on the outside where you run and spread hard. 

You have to build your list to execute one of the 2 game plans. Tnte Hawks had the list for option 1, but then replaced their 2 best kickers with handballers so they struggled and their game style now is a work in progress.

Melbourne have gone for contested beasts and (usually) win the clearances. We have identified the stoppages as a competitive advantage and structured the team accordingly, the idea being to handball to someone outside of the immediate vicinity of the stoppage, who can then do likewise, until such time as it is in the hands of someone on the outside running at full pace to break the lines, or who can hit up a target moving away from the stoppage. When we're on, our run and carry is evident and we rip teams to shreds. When it's not, we look slow, "handball happy" and our backline get caught between streaming forward for the outside run and staying back in their defensive setup  

Ironically, some of melbournes best passages of play this year have been a chain of handpasses, where we've broken through the oppositions line, force the defender to leave their man and commit and we handball over the top. 

Where this breaks down is when we don't have the outside run. The inside mids flick it around looking for it, but if it's not there they then get caught with the ball. 

As for those who scream "just kick it", and then bemoan the player for kicking it to a 1v3 up forward, it's down to the way we are trying to play and why players just don't throw it on the boot. We want to effectively run it into our 50, not launch it high and long from stoppages. Hence the "over handballing". 

I don't criticize the inside mids. They're doing what they're told to do. If you're going to criticize anyone point the finger at the lack of outside run during stretches of some games forcing the inside mids to keep it within the immediate vicinity of a stoppage. 

[drdrake 3,170]

Be interested to see what our stats are like with Viney in our team.  Viney has an amazing ability to break tackles, he still handballs but when you break a tackle it creates the over lap.  Others handballed before getting tackled that just put the next bloke under pressure.