On 27/09/2020 at 01:18, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Damo Barrett on The Sunday Footy Show mentioned tht he thinks Brown will end up at one of the finals teams. Doesn’t sound like he is connected to Melbourne in anyway at all. 

Please don't call him Damo. It gives the illusion of popularity and mates.

I hope we are considering him.. he is the type of player that will help Weid so much..  Weid goes from getting the strongest best defender to the second, can roam up a bit make contests without having to bolt back to FF. Man we really need another key Fwd.. if not Brown.. then who?

Edited September 30, 20204 yr by Demon3

  On 30/09/2020 at 08:24, Demon3 said:

I hope we are considering him.. he is the type of player that will help Weid so much..  Weid goes from getting the strongest best defender to the second, can roam up a bit make contests without having to bolt back to FF. Man we really need another key Fwd.. if not Brown.. then who?

If we signed Brown then Weid would play in the 2's. Can't have 2 big forwards who don't get a lot of the ball, don't particularly excel in the ruck, don't move well up the ground and can't defend.

  On 26/09/2020 at 03:58, Skuit said:

Or don't overthink it. If we can't accommodate the game's most consistent goal-kicker over the past few years (legit reasons for the slump this year) then we may as well shut up shop. On the market for cheap in terms of trade cookies, late starter, will release Fritsch and co. to do things you don't think Brown can do. 

I'll say one thing: while we are a serious offender (albeit improved this year), just about every fan laments their club's inability to hit up targets and the bombing it long. You think North had sublime delivery skills all the years Brown was kicking bags? 

Straightening a team up is a fairly common phrase for a reason. Brown will be our TMac of 2018. Presents on the lead and opens up the angles and further options. You don't ambivilate when a KPF of Brown's quality is on the market for cheap. 

It's not even true about being the worst side for marks inside 50' s, we average 9 marks a game inside 50, which is 1 above the AFL average, it's a dumb argument to say in not recruiting Ben Brown, he would as they say straighten us up.

Maybe I have an aversion to North players, but I thoroughly don't want either of Brown or Polec.

Both would be on far more coin than their real value and both have the real potential to stink it up and in the process break morale at the club.

  On 30/09/2020 at 09:19, DeeSpencer said:

If we signed Brown then Weid would play in the 2's. Can't have 2 big forwards who don't get a lot of the ball, don't particularly excel in the ruck, don't move well up the ground and can't defend.

Not sure where you're coming from with this. Who exactly would be coming in as the other second tall in the forward line? If Brown came in and was able to find some of the form that made him a dangerous tall forward Weid would move into the secondary forward role, take the second key defender, and probably move into a CHF type player. I'd say that would be the plan regardless of who we try to bring in.

I can't recall which game it was but I remember them speaking very highly for Sam's movement all over the ground and the amount of territory he was covering. Brown would be more of the traditional stay at home forward. As for the forward pressure I'd argue a lot of the improvement in that area needs to come from Fritta, Melksham, AvB, and Kozzie (who did well in first year terms but still needs more at the fall of the ball). 

  On 30/09/2020 at 12:47, Pates said:

Not sure where you're coming from with this. Who exactly would be coming in as the other second tall in the forward line? If Brown came in and was able to find some of the form that made him a dangerous tall forward Weid would move into the secondary forward role, take the second key defender, and probably move into a CHF type player. I'd say that would be the plan regardless of who we try to bring in.

I can't recall which game it was but I remember them speaking very highly for Sam's movement all over the ground and the amount of territory he was covering. Brown would be more of the traditional stay at home forward. As for the forward pressure I'd argue a lot of the improvement in that area needs to come from Fritta, Melksham, AvB, and Kozzie (who did well in first year terms but still needs more at the fall of the ball). 

Absolutely Jackson and if he returns well from injury then Petty as well would make more sense in that CHF role. 

Brown has a big tank too and comes up the ground to contest, he's an excellent endurance runner, but he averages 1.1 tackles a game and Weid's not much better at 1.3. We've seen Weid play in a 3 tall set up or Weid with Preuss and none of it's worked. He needs to be one of the main men crashing packs and complimented by a player who has different skills.

I can't think of a team that plays 2 big key forwards that don't get involved at ground level. The Saints are tall but both their ruckmen and  even more so Max King are great on the ground as is Membrey. Riewoldt was struggling for a while earlier this year but he's got an all round game. Kennedy teams up with Oscar Allen and Darling because they move like midfielders. The Cats don't even play a second key forward, they rotate Stanley or Esava down there for a contest and otherwise use Danger and Rohan.

Jackson is that kind of Oscar Allen/King brothers type athlete that you pair with a less mobile marking forward. I don't think Brown and Weid go well together at all.

  On 02/08/2017 at 04:53, demonique said:

I am quite seriously worried about Jesse Hogan. I do hope you are right about him and this indeed has been a bad year for him . But this feeling from last year I had and  has carried on into this . I am thinking he has plateaued! I am honestly thinking he is not going to be what we want him to be. 

I am willing to bow to people who know more about  him and their expertise with coaching but my doubts remain ! 

Still has my  absolute support, young Jesse. I am sure this is carried by many DL contributors, as well. If there was a feasible way in which his troubled and challenging environment could be soothed I would donate every effort to achieve it for him. LIfe demands one walks through dark woods at times, emerging into the sunshine beyond with a lesson attached to stroll that fortifies rather rapidly. We can only hope that Jesse emerges unhindered with resolve - he still has what we all know he has: immense talents and longer-term capabilities. Wish you well, Jesse, and if you are ever done at the MFC again, bring your fountain pen for that dotted line.

 

  On 30/09/2020 at 13:28, DeeSpencer said:

Absolutely Jackson and if he returns well from injury then Petty as well would make more sense in that CHF role. 

Brown has a big tank too and comes up the ground to contest, he's an excellent endurance runner, but he averages 1.1 tackles a game and Weid's not much better at 1.3. We've seen Weid play in a 3 tall set up or Weid with Preuss and none of it's worked. He needs to be one of the main men crashing packs and complimented by a player who has different skills.

I can't think of a team that plays 2 big key forwards that don't get involved at ground level. The Saints are tall but both their ruckmen and  even more so Max King are great on the ground as is Membrey. Riewoldt was struggling for a while earlier this year but he's got an all round game. Kennedy teams up with Oscar Allen and Darling because they move like midfielders. The Cats don't even play a second key forward, they rotate Stanley or Esava down there for a contest and otherwise use Danger and Rohan.

Jackson is that kind of Oscar Allen/King brothers type athlete that you pair with a less mobile marking forward. I don't think Brown and Weid go well together at all.

You’re not really mentioning Petty, Darling, Kennedy, and Riewoldt in the same post? What has Petty to offer? We don’t know yet but I doubt he’s even an AFL player let alone in the same league as those guys.

according to Tom Morris on the trade chat, we've had preliminary interest in Ben Brown alongside St Kilda.

  On 01/10/2020 at 01:07, Coq au vin said:

You’re not really mentioning Petty, Darling, Kennedy, and Riewoldt in the same post? What has Petty to offer? We don’t know yet but I doubt he’s even an AFL player let alone in the same league as those guys.

Not comparing Petty to those guys but I’m predicting if Brown comes in and takes the full forward spot then Jackson will be the CHF over Weid. Petty also has a strong chance to be preferred over Weid. He has more mobility and versatility. 

  On 01/10/2020 at 03:38, DeeSpencer said:

Not comparing Petty to those guys but I’m predicting if Brown comes in and takes the full forward spot then Jackson will be the CHF over Weid. Petty also has a strong chance to be preferred over Weid. He has more mobility and versatility. 

I agree in principle. I just cannot see Brown, Jackson, Weid and Fritsch all playing in the same forward line.  Add in Petty is impossible.  IMO we don't need another KPF.

  On 01/10/2020 at 07:53, Pollyanna said:

I agree in principle. I just cannot see Brown, Jackson, Weid and Fritsch all playing in the same forward line.  Add in Petty is impossible.  IMO we don't need another KPF.

We can add a superstar or a mobile player who tackles and defends to complement what we have. I don’t think Brown is either of those options 

  On 01/10/2020 at 08:07, DeeSpencer said:

We can add a superstar or a mobile player who tackles and defends to complement what we have. I don’t think Brown is either of those options 

I'm not 100% against Brown (as much as he annoys me as free kick actor) because he at least provides us with a number 1 target that makes each of our other forwards more effective. Weideman as a second tall this year was very effective, but got smothered as a number 1. 

But I think we can use our chips in a better way. I think Petty can play as the contesting forward with Weid and Jackson being the dangerous secondaries, much in the way the McStay plays for Brisbane. Brisbane's worst loss this year was against Richmond when McStay was out of the lineup and Richmond key Brisbane to 4 goals (admittedly it was 4.17!). McStay only kicked 10 goals for the year, but he kills the long kick forward, which allows players like Cameron, Hipwood, Rayner, McCarthy and their midfielders to get good opportunities. Weideman did this at the end of the year when forced to, but he more valuable as the second banana. Jackson can play anywhere because he's a freak. 

But there's only so much salary cap and draft assets to spread around, and there are probably other way we can spend them rather than a key forward. But I can also see the argument in favour of recruiting a high quality marking forward at below market price. 

 

I've turned up to the 'Axis of Bob fan club' only in the last week or two, but I've got to say thank you for such well thought out and balanced posts. Thoroughly enjoy reading what you have to say. The Jack Viney analysis a few days ago was a ripper. Cheers

I've never been afraid to take the Brown Route and I encourage you all to give it a go.

Edited October 1, 20204 yr by Biffen

  On 01/10/2020 at 08:30, Axis of Bob said:

I'm not 100% against Brown (as much as he annoys me as free kick actor) because he at least provides us with a number 1 target that makes each of our other forwards more effective. Weideman as a second tall this year was very effective, but got smothered as a number 1. 

But I think we can use our chips in a better way. I think Petty can play as the contesting forward with Weid and Jackson being the dangerous secondaries, much in the way the McStay plays for Brisbane. Brisbane's worst loss this year was against Richmond when McStay was out of the lineup and Richmond key Brisbane to 4 goals (admittedly it was 4.17!). McStay only kicked 10 goals for the year, but he kills the long kick forward, which allows players like Cameron, Hipwood, Rayner, McCarthy and their midfielders to get good opportunities. Weideman did this at the end of the year when forced to, but he more valuable as the second banana. Jackson can play anywhere because he's a freak. 

But there's only so much salary cap and draft assets to spread around, and there are probably other way we can spend them rather than a key forward. But I can also see the argument in favour of recruiting a high quality marking forward at below market price. 

 

How do you see having 3 195+ blokes in the forward line working? I' don't disagree with you but surely at this point the main option defences will be focusing on will be Weid over Petty?

.

Edited October 1, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

  On 01/10/2020 at 12:47, Murph1524 said:

How do you see having 3 195+ blokes in the forward line working? I' don't disagree with you but surely at this point the main option defences will be focusing on will be Weid over Petty?

I agree that it isn't typical and also not a surefire winner, but the key is Jackson. 

The opposition may wish to focus on Weid, as they probably will, but they will likely be in different parts of the ground. Weid didn't have the high impact late in the year because he was forced to stand down the line and just compete for long balls whilst his best footy was as a move flexible foil for McDonald. Most of his success came from either getting out the back or getting it one on one. He's quite mobile and clever but couldn't use any of that doing the dog work down the line. By bringing in Brown/Petty, you can have them set up down the line to do the aerial competing and Weid can be set up slightly away either to attack the contest if in range or position himself to be dangerous as the next target. For instance, you may wish to focus on stopping Charlie Cameron, but if Brisbane are still going to kick it long to McStay then you still need to defend it and that creates opportunities for others.

As for whether it's possible, last night Port mostly played 3 tall forwards (Dixon, Marshall and Ladhams), which mostly shut down Geelong's strong interceptors and allowed their dangerous small forwards to reap the benefits. But Jackson is unlike any of those forwards because of his unique mobility for a player of his size. His unique attributes make him the sort of player that we can almost create a position for. You could play him as a medium forward, or perhaps even as a 'high half/tall forward' where he plays up around the ball but then pushes forward as a marking threat. Where he ends up, we don't really know because he's different to what has come through in the past.

I suppose my point is that we should be setting up a structure that functions without Jackson because Jackson's flexibility and mobility allows us to play him in unique ways, rather than pigeonholing him as a tall forward. But if we play tall then we do need to get the smalls right around them. 

Sorry, that's just kind of just a brain dump. I hope it made some sense. 

  On 02/10/2020 at 00:01, Axis of Bob said:

I agree that it isn't typical and also not a surefire winner, but the key is Jackson. 

The opposition may wish to focus on Weid, as they probably will, but they will likely be in different parts of the ground. Weid didn't have the high impact late in the year because he was forced to stand down the line and just compete for long balls whilst his best footy was as a move flexible foil for McDonald. Most of his success came from either getting out the back or getting it one on one. He's quite mobile and clever but couldn't use any of that doing the dog work down the line. By bringing in Brown/Petty, you can have them set up down the line to do the aerial competing and Weid can be set up slightly away either to attack the contest if in range or position himself to be dangerous as the next target. For instance, you may wish to focus on stopping Charlie Cameron, but if Brisbane are still going to kick it long to McStay then you still need to defend it and that creates opportunities for others.

As for whether it's possible, last night Port mostly played 3 tall forwards (Dixon, Marshall and Ladhams), which mostly shut down Geelong's strong interceptors and allowed their dangerous small forwards to reap the benefits. But Jackson is unlike any of those forwards because of his unique mobility for a player of his size. His unique attributes make him the sort of player that we can almost create a position for. You could play him as a medium forward, or perhaps even as a 'high half/tall forward' where he plays up around the ball but then pushes forward as a marking threat. Where he ends up, we don't really know because he's different to what has come through in the past.

I suppose my point is that we should be setting up a structure that functions without Jackson because Jackson's flexibility and mobility allows us to play him in unique ways, rather than pigeonholing him as a tall forward. But if we play tall then we do need to get the smalls right around them. 

Sorry, that's just kind of just a brain dump. I hope it made some sense. 

No that was great, you explained that perfectly cheers

Now we just need Goody to jump on the @Axis of Bob hype train

Edited October 2, 20204 yr by Murph1524

  On 02/10/2020 at 00:27, Murph1524 said:

Now we just need Goody to jump on the @Axis of Bob hype train

I appreciate that Murph, however whilst I am grateful and flattered by some positive comments I received of late, I'm pretty uncomfortable with it. I think it's really important important to note that I'm not an expert on any of this, and have only the barest amount of information and experience of those employed at football clubs. There is so much that they know about football that we don't know, nor would we even realise what information is around for us not to know!

I think we all need to realise this, and also that there isn't one way to skin a cat in a game as complex and random as AFL. 

But it's still fun to try to work these things out with many of the thoughtful posters on here.

  On 02/10/2020 at 01:08, Axis of Bob said:

I appreciate that Murph, however whilst I am grateful and flattered by some positive comments I received of late, I'm pretty uncomfortable with it. I think it's really important important to note that I'm not an expert on any of this, and have only the barest amount of information and experience of those employed at football clubs. There is so much that they know about football that we don't know, nor would we even realise what information is around for us not to know!

I think we all need to realise this, and also that there isn't one way to skin a cat in a game as complex and random as AFL. 

But it's still fun to try to work these things out with many of the thoughtful posters on here.

So you’re not the messiah you’re just a very knowledgeable boy. 

  On 02/10/2020 at 00:01, Axis of Bob said:

But Jackson is unlike any of those forwards because of his unique mobility for a player of his size. His unique attributes make him the sort of player that we can almost create a position for. You could play him as a medium forward, or perhaps even as a 'high half/tall forward' where he plays up around the ball but then pushes forward as a marking threat. Where he ends up, we don't really know because he's different to what has come through in the past.

I suppose my point is that we should be setting up a structure that functions without Jackson because Jackson's flexibility and mobility allows us to play him in unique ways, rather than pigeonholing him as a tall forward. But if we play tall then we do need to get the smalls right around them. 

Could not agree with this more.

Forget about Jackson as a permanent tall forward and let him be whatever the hell he wants/the coaches want on any given day.

I really hope they keep him fairly lean and try and play him as a high half forward who has license to roam anywhere. He can take Melksham's spot and give Half Back Flankers nightmares for the next 2 years.

This is why I am strongly in the get Brown/Gunston camp. Weid is starting to command a good defender, if we can get someone else who command the same, then Jacko as a 3rd tall is a dream setup for us

Edited October 2, 20204 yr by BW511

  On 02/10/2020 at 01:08, Axis of Bob said:

I appreciate that Murph, however whilst I am grateful and flattered by some positive comments I received of late, I'm pretty uncomfortable with it. I think it's really important important to note that I'm not an expert on any of this, and have only the barest amount of information and experience of those employed at football clubs. There is so much that they know about football that we don't know, nor would we even realise what information is around for us not to know!

I think we all need to realise this, and also that there isn't one way to skin a cat in a game as complex and random as AFL. 

But it's still fun to try to work these things out with many of the thoughtful posters on here.

There are plenty of so called experts who know jack s**t about the game despite presenting themselves as knowledgeable. I think there’s a description for it, Expert fallacy. Because someone is an “expert” their view or opinion is somehow more authoritative.

Ex-players, commentators, journalists and coaches talk a fair amount of dribble. Clichés and banalities. Insulting our intelligence most of the time. Seriously, I don’t think I’ve heard Goodwin say one intelligent thing during his press conferences. Clarkson on the other hand..

There are plenty of posters on this site that know more about footy than the so called experts (there’s a fair bit of nonsense to wade through as well though) and whose opinion I respect far more.  

Please continue to post your considered and logical comments axis.