POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

[Adam The God 30,260]

39 minutes ago, bing181 said:

It's called inexperience. Everyone can cite the "a young side" statistic, but when we play like "a young side", DL goes into meltdown.

Yes, it is, but the fact that Jones, for all his heart, has played in losing sides the majority of his career, means not even our experienced captain knows what it takes to close out a match.

The inexperience hurts, but as has been rightly pointed out at various stages on Demonland today, it wasn't the inexperienced players that lost the game. If anything, it was the younger guys stepping up that kept us in the game.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

7 hours ago, bing181 said:

No, it didn't cost us the win. There are/were any number of factors across the whole game, some of them just down to luck (e.g. ball bounces) that cost us the win. 

The only reason you're singling out these two is that they occurred in the last quarter and are thus easier to remember. It's called availability bias.

We can't say for certain that it cost us the win, and as your quote would show if you hadn't cherry-picked, I freely acknowledge that there were other factors. However as I said these were two moments where the opportunity was there and if either one of them had shown better composure we could have won the game.  Their poor judgement during a pivotal period cost us the opportunity to win the game. 

[Je Roos Salem 661]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

For those having a go at Harmes for the last shot I just had a look again and there wasn't really anything else on. Jetta was out laterally to his right and was still outside 50 so not really an option. Considering there was only 30 seconds left he had to have a crack.

I would've been mad if he hadn't had the shot

[bing181 9,240]

24 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

... if you hadn't cherry-picked ...

... it's probably unfair to highlight one or two players, but I'm going to do it anyway. 

[Gator 17,361]

I've only read the first third of this thread, but I'm yet to read that Weideman got a corked thigh in the first quarter and was clearly impeded yet competed for high balls, especially in the last.  I like him for structure, but agree a spell in the twos wouldn't hurt him.  We didn't lose because of Weideman.

We lost because there's a lack of leadership in the midfield.  There's a tonne of talent, but a lack of experience.  They got complacent at half-time and lacked composure in the third when momentum went the other way.  There wasn't a senior player take a few of the mids aside and mix up the tempo by controlling the footy with a more marking game.  They still went helter skelter with the wrong mix of kicks to handballs and kept on turning it over.

As gutted as I am by the loss I can also see the quality of the team we're going to have in the not too distant future.  And even this year we're going to put some good teams to the sword with a 4 quarter performance, which we're yet to see.  

I was annoyed that Oliver started on the pine in the last and couldn't get back on until exactly the 9 minute mark.  I'm not suggesting it cost us the game, as we kicked two very quick goals, but I doubt it helped.

Gawn, Hogan, Lewis, Hibberd, Brayshaw will all hopefully be fit and firing by year's end. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by ProDee

[Dockett 32 1,239]

7 hours ago, A F said:

Yes, it is, but the fact that Jones, for all his heart, has played in losing sides the majority of his career, means not even our experienced captain knows what it takes to close out a match.

The inexperience hurts, but as has been rightly pointed out at various stages on Demonland today, it wasn't the inexperienced players that lost the game. If anything, it was the younger guys stepping up that kept us in the game.

Disagree.

Viney 6 kicks, Jones 8 kicks. Weiderman 3 kicks.

Wasnt just inexperience.

[hank 23]

15 hours ago, Night Crawler said:

Yep. Add Melksham and Hannan to that list at the least.

 

Just to be clear, Melksham will not be dropped, he is the coaches love child.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,841]

10 hours ago, Dee-licious said:

To top it all off - we are probably back in the 8 tonight....

And we can remarkably still be in the 8 next week even if we lose to Richmond if the following results go our way:

St Kilda beat Collingwood today 

and next week:

Adelaide beat GC

North beat Freo

Geelong beat St Kilda

Collingwood beat Essendon

Edited April 15, 2017 by Bring-Back-Powell

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,841]

"Melbourne are a quality side, we knew it would be hard" - Cam McCarthy

Even the opposition players are overrating us.

[binman 42,984]

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

For those having a go at Harmes for the last shot I just had a look again and there wasn't really anything else on. Jetta was out laterally to his right and was still outside 50 so not really an option. Considering there was only 30 seconds left he had to have a crack.

Disagree. One he didnt even look. He only considered one option. Going for a 60 metre kick. If he had looked to rhe corridor he would have seen jetta and surely would have kicked out in front of him into the huge hole INSIDE 50 jetts was running toward. There were no defenders and jetts, a very reliable kick, would have had a shot from directly in front 40 out. Boneheaded.

[bandicoot 1,395]

15 hours ago, A F said:

I wanted to punch something on the way out of the ground. I was that frustrated.

I swear I'm one of the only supporters in the MCC who actually uses their voice. It's supposed to be a home game with 28,000 (mostly) Melbourne supporters and it sounded like a library for the majority of the game. I know we've had some lean years, but I would have thought we'd be a lot louder these days.

MCC members should be ashamed.

The ball is thrown in on the members side in the last qtr. dees need as much support as possible and the members area is silent.  It's like they are too good to cheer.

Melbourne doesn't need supporters like that. 

[Demonsone 2,037]

Still very disappointed.... players continue to miss these opportunities thru lapses, poor goal kicking & turovers ...

Edited April 15, 2017 by Hogan2014

[Freak 100]

we just don't have enough players with high footy IQ. 

People were talking about how smart Montagna was last week but stalling in the goalsquare before kicking a goal. It's not smart, it's common sense. it's embarassing to think people hadn't thought of this before. 

We need players to sharpen up and understand the moments of a game. 

 

[fr_ap 2,488]

15 hours ago, Redleg said:

Do we? Remember the Saints game last year. Lost in the last 10 seconds. Players didn't go back behind the ball.

Hit the front today, 3 minutes to play, did you notice our structure?

We haven't learned, not one bit. Poor leadership from the box and on field, dumb footballers, dumb leaders, dumb Coaches..

Secondly, we pick poorly skilled players who panic and turn it over.

We haven't learned at all.

 

We haven't learned because we still have just about the youngest team in the league, as well as the most inexperienced coach. Until this team are older, barring an anomaly we will not be in the window. Look up the maths. 

Whilst shattered and still filthy about Viney as Captain (the kid is a good player when on song but never a leader. Have no idea what Goodwin has seen and hate the unilateral decision), I am a little encouraged that without all of our best firing (jones vince viney hogan lewis gawn are just about our top 6 players), we are still in positions to win games. And really, its off the back of guys like oliver, trac, salem and to a lesser extent ANB (who needs to improve decision making but he is slowly winning me over). 

Take steven, riewoldt, montagna, hickey, roberton and co out of the saints lineup. See how close they get. 

A top 8 team you ask?

Take ward, shaw, coniglio, patton/cameron, z williams and Mumford out of gws and they come back to the pack. 

Martin, vlastuin, cotchin, j. Riewoldt, grigg and nankervis out of richmond. Etc. Etc. Etc. 

Depth is one thing but our outs are ridiculous, and whilst they havent cost us the games per se, hogan and lewis hurt us because their absence has coincided with some very poor form from our other senior players/leaders, and an injury to our spiritual leader and single best player. 

We've seen what we are capable of at our best. Unfortunately, we might not see it again this year with the spate of injuries we've suffered. Wagner over melksham anyday. Hib in so vince can bomb it from the guts. VDB in to complement the lack of size from ANB and laziness from harmes. 

I'll admit, weideman is a worry. He has time though. Hannan does not but looks a natural winger to me if he had a bit more size.

[Jara 1,153]

Some quality journalism in this morning's Age - match report: Best players: Freo: Neale, Mundy, Fyfe etc  Melbourne: Umpires  

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

15 hours ago, A F said:

I agree with this, but at the same time, we did need a tall to take their bigger defenders IMO. And he did bring the ball to ground quite a few times. My biggest knock at this stage is his tank. He struggles for repeat efforts. He also finds himself a little lost on the ground at times and leads up a little too high. He's better out of the square. When he finds himself 45-50m out, it's too easy for defenders to whisk the ball away and there's little implied pressure because the entry isn't deep. I would have liked to see him lead back to the square harder at times.

I think the Weideman 'out' call will probably come as Hogan will no doubt we back next week. What might save Weeds is he plays marginally better with Hogan by his side, who compensates for the work rate Weideman lacks at this stage. Hogan's movement also opens up space deeper for Weeds.

Anyway, I think it might be time for a Weideman rest.

AF there is no 'saving' Weeds and no room for someone to be 'carried' at this level. That's ok at high school or amateurs level. He occasionally shows glimpses of promise when out in space and gifted the ball when the whole team's doing well. Never seen him stand up when things aren't going so well. Had another opportunity yesterday 15 meters out and failed. All that will happen if we keep flogging the horse is.....

 ....Weeds' defender will be more likely to drop off him most of the time and go third up to blanket Hogan. Then we have two forwards who will be ineffective in the air (one already is...Hogan will be less effective) and only one who 'might' impact a little at ground level.

As I said before yesterday's match, a Tim Smith or even an 80% fit (or thereabouts) Pedders is at least a 50% improvement on Weeds at this points.

Weeds wouldn't be the first player to have had a peek at what the AFL looks like before returning to a lessor league to work on his craft and build a bigger bod & tank. He is miles off it at this point and wasn't anywhere near it when they first trialled him late last year. Unfortunately some coach/s or assistant within the FD has decided he 'shows' something and is 'too good' for Casey. Big big mistake. No one is too good unless they have the tank and are performing at a decent level on the main stage comsistantly most weeks. He might end up being good and needs to be persisted with (when ready) but he is a glaring black hole at this point.

When we change the attitude that 'promising' players should be gifted as many games as possible until they get to an acceptable AFL level  at the selection table we will finally turn things around and start winning 3/4/5 games in succession and start making finals. If we don't, we won't and as supporters we will continue to scratch our heads and ask a bazillion questions as to why we continually can't quite get there and continue to lose very winnable matches, like yesterday.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,736]

It seems that Viney is currently being used as a tagger of sorts, at least that is what it looks like.

If that is the case, then that is extremely dumb coaching.

We take a guy who was a weapon last season as a ball winner and turn him into a defensive player?

Dumb,dumb,dumb.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

49 minutes ago, bandicoot said:

MCC members should be ashamed.

The ball is thrown in on the members side in the last qtr. dees need as much support as possible and the members area is silent.  It's like they are too good to cheer.

Melbourne doesn't need supporters like that. 

I would guess many probably aren't genuine supporters bandi that's why. It's a social club, they go there to catch up with a few buddies and business mates, talk shop and forget about their woes or daily grind over a few quiet ones or maybe more than a few! Footy isn't their main game or passion in most cases I wouldn't think.  Im sure there's a few genuine passionate ones but if they got too noisy or rowdy they would probably be told to settle down or they'll be shown the door by the uppity officials ! ? If you're a seriously passionate MFC supporter then the MCC is probably not the place to hang out.

A fair percentage would also be non MFC members and a small percentage probably barrack for other teams including the opposition.

[Dante 2,739]

14 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

For those having a go at Harmes for the last shot I just had a look again and there wasn't really anything else on. Jetta was out laterally to his right and was still outside 50 so not really an option. Considering there was only 30 seconds left he had to have a crack.

Correct, he had a shot, he was in range and he missed, simple as that. There were plenty of other reasons we lost that game, Jack had a shot on the fly from 30 mtrs out and for some reason he decided to kick round the corner instead of a straight forward drop punt, he missed and I think if he'd just kicked it with his normal action he would have nailed it.

They played a fast game and we couldn't keep up with them, they got fed by Sandilands and we missed Gawn. They got numbers to the ball and strangled our game.

We must look at our game plan for the last 2 to 3 minutes of each quarter, we get scored against far too often, we can't waste 25 minutes of good play with a few minutes of slacking off.

Mainly we need to stop the backline from giving away too many soft goals, we are leaking like a sieve down back.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Dante

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

11 hours ago, Redleg said:

To be honest and without getting hysterical, I think we need to decide if we want to blood players or win games.

Clearly ATM we can't do both.

And make finals. Freo had plenty of finals experience In their team yesterday. We have very little. Every loss is super costly to this teams potential progress. Finals is a must this year IMO given our lack of experience and the decade out of them. We are in no position to be blooding players who are clearly NQR or not ready for the big league just yet.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

I've only read the first third of this thread, but I'm yet to read that Weideman got a corked thigh in the first quarter and was clearly impeded yet competed for high balls, especially in the last.  I like him for structure, but agree a spell in the twos wouldn't hurt him.  We didn't lose because of Weideman.

We lost because there's a lack of leadership in the midfield.  There's a tonne of talent, but a lack of experience.  They got complacent at half-time and lacked composure in the third when momentum went the other way.  There wasn't a senior player take a few of the mids aside and mix up the tempo by controlling the few with a more marking game.  They still went helter skelter with the wrong mix of kicks to handballs and kept on turning it over.

As gutted as I am by the loss I can also see the quality of the team we're going to have in the not too distant future.  And even this year we're going to put some good teams to the sword with a 4 quarter performance, which we're yet to see.  

I was annoyed that Oliver started on the pine in the last and couldn't get back on until exactly the 9 minute mark.  I'm not suggesting it cost us the game, as we kicked two very quick goals, but I doubt it helped.

Gawn, Hogan, Lewis, Hibberd, Brayshaw will all hopefully be fit and firing by year's end. 

Like this post. Mirrors my thoughts

We can go through the whole game and criticise, whine and nit pick but it really boils down to lack of experience and leadership.

I cbf reading through this whole thread again but has anyone at all acknowledged Freo had a lot more experience on the park and looked pretty damn good moving the ball.

The most worrying thing for me is how easy teams score when they beat our press.

[Kiss of Death 755]

Relax guys, looks like the club has it under control and have taken steps to improve things like our goal kicking accuracy...

[grazman 7,436]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

Gawn, Hogan, Lewis, Hibberd, Brayshaw will all hopefully be fit and firing by year's end. 

Aaron VDB as well, I think we underestimate how important he is in the role he plays. Big body that runs the angles.  Doesn't get a heap of it, but would have been handy yesterday.

[sue 9,107]

Put me down in the glass-half full group despite all the mistakes, poor play, bad selections and coaching errors posters have bemoaned in this long thread. 

Someone posted we could have been a disaterous 0-4.  Equally we could have been 4-0 with people booking their GF tickets.

In fact everything points to 4-0 being the more likely given the winning position we should have been in both losses.

And this without 2*Hogan, 2*Lewis and1.5*Gawn, some of our better players putting in poor games and a couple of headless chooks being selected, plus a long injury list.   Sorry, I haven't felt less upset about a loss for a long time. Disappointed, but not upset.

[No10 461]

10 hours ago, bing181 said:

Yes, of course it is.

ANB, Stretch, Salem, Hunt and most of the young'uns have all gone up a notch this year, and have played their best games for the club. Same for Spencer. Jones has been great until today (injured? heavily tagged?). Vince had 30 disposals in Round 1, missed a round, was injured in Round 3 and played injured today apparently, though 25 disposals isn't too shoddy. As for Tyson, he had 28 disposals and 9 marks and yeah, shanked a few. 6 Clangers. The same number as Fyfe.

A metre here or there on just one of those shots at goal or ball bounces and we wouldn't even be having these discussions.

ANB has been given a shot and played well, not break out, but good enough...  The rest...  Tyson, Salem, Stretch, Harmes...  not great performances.

Hunt is one of the few players with a role that suits his attributes.  Oliver too.   But so many players trying to play the system aren't playing their best.

What role is Jones even playing?  Or Viney?   Everyone wants A grade players but how do you think that happens if you don't let them play to strengths.   Hogan is one of the few arrogant enough to play where he wants.

I agree with Jumbo, Trac should be tearing apart the competition, he has that level of ability.

Goodwin is following a model that's already out dated.  He has potential stars, he needs to get them firing.