Second Ruckman

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Assuming that both Jamar and PJ are fit next year, who do you think will predominantly be Melbourne's second ruckman behind White in 2007?

[Nasher 33,617]

Jamar is probably the one who complements White better. An athletic, mobile ruckman and the lumbering giant who can take a grab.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that PJ is actually a good AFL ruckman. Until such time, the choice is obvious.

[Adzman 2,154]

I think Jamar should actually be groomed to take over in the ruck. He needs more minutes on the ground, playing 25 mins a game doesnt help develop a player.

Let whitey ruc and run around to float forward and back.

2007 has to be the year where jamar asserts himself as a key ruckman for the MFC. Whites reign is coming to an end, we need a guy to step up and step into the number one job sooner rather than later.

[Nasher 33,617]

Welcome to 2005 Wrath. If Jamar spent on average any less than 50% time on the ground I'd be surprised.

[Pello 1]

I think Jamar is a better option in the ruck but I'd like to see PJ up forward as he leads well and will prove to be a distraction for defenders.

[Cactus 2]

i prefer jamar at the moment but who knows whats going to happen in pre season.

I think russian has lots of improvement left in him and lets hope 2007 is the year that he really shows what he is capable of.

On another note, lets never see all 3 ruckman in the same team again.... PLEASE!!

[Jarka 767]

Next year will be Jamar, however I'm expecting Neaves to quickly overtake him, if not the year after definitely the next.

[Gorgoroth 13,146]

pj is my tip to make a imprint on the first team

[Key Deefender 143]

I see Jamar becoming our centre bounce specialist and will hopefully continuing to gain confidence around the ground. At times he was able to go forward and take the big grab and I would love to see this part of his game develop.

PJ, I see as more of a replacement for Jeff White in the coming year or two as he has the running capacity and athleticism to be a mobile follower all over the ground and less of a tap ruckman. His apparent weakness for taking a pack mark would be negated in this role. Hopefully their differing skills will complement each other.

Neaves, for the little I've seen of him on TV only, strikes me as being able to be both a Jamar and PJ and I've been impressed with his efforts. At least three years behind them in development, he shapes as an interesting prospect. He can take a grab, is no skinny rake and has mobility.

However, none are tall enough to go with the 210cm monsters that have suddenly come back into vogue after the change to the ruck rule. Sandilands and Cox are likely to be dominant over the next 5-10 years as they are quality talls. Peter Street who is a similar height will not, as the quality is not there, although he has improved somewhat - handy at best.

Leuenberger and Renouf and other young skyscrapers will take time to develop, may or may not be champions and who knows - the ruck rule may even change again. The success and ability of Cox and Sandilands has everyone now looking for their rucking clones but in reality they are probably a rare breed rather than readily growing on trees. Cox often gets 20+ possessions, whereas Sandilands would be closer to 10. Sandilands though, is totally immovable at centre bounces.

Rucking tactics and the ability of a quality midfield to rove to a losing ruck can help offset the obvious height disadvantage. We shouldn't take someone in the draft just because he can touch the top of a goalpost unless there's a genuine thought he can make it.

On the other hand, without really knowing anything about his progress, I would be monitoring someone like Robert Warnock, currently about to start the 2nd year of his initial draft contract with Freo. He is way up there in height, and with Sandilands and Longmuir ahead of him, is unlikely to get a look in. The go home factor combined with his ties to Melbourne through Matthew and Sandringham from where he was drafted, could make us an attractive option to him.

He will have had two years in the AFL system to learn and hopefully bulk up a bit, have being tutored under and alonside Sandilands, may be cheapish in terms of a trade and could be worth a punt - but only with good reason.

Sorry, got carried away from the original intention of the thread but would be interested in any knowledge of others regarding Warnock and his rate of development. With his being in Freo and obviously learning his craft in the WAFL, it's a case of out of sight, out of mind.

[old55 23,804]

Good post KD.

Just one clarification.

I think Sandilands is the only one of a new type at 211. AS you say Street is 211 but is not a big threat. Sandilands can play a bit and is super tall.

The thing about Cox is that he is a ripping player, not that he is 204 (altho that adds to it). If he was 200 he'd still be extremely damaging. If he was 204 and as good as Sandilands at football he would not be on the radar. I don't think he's a new type, Spida is 203 and has been playing well for years.

I don't think clubs should alter their philosophy based on one outlier. No-one 211 and 125kg has played before. he's only had one good season. He could easily breakdown and all the fuss be for nothing.

There's too much hysteria about giant rucks.

[Key Deefender 143]

Good post KD.

Just one clarification.

I think Sandilands is the only one of a new type at 211. AS you say Street is 211 but is not a big threat. Sandilands can play a bit and is super tall.

The thing about Cox is that he is a ripping player, not that he is 204 (altho that adds to it). If he was 200 he'd still be extremely damaging. If he was 204 and as good as Sandilands at football he would not be on the radar. I don't think he's a new type, Spida is 203 and has been playing well for years.

I don't think clubs should alter their philosophy based on one outlier. No-one 211 and 125kg has played before. he's only had one good season. He could easily breakdown and all the fuss be for nothing.

There's too much hysteria about giant rucks.

Thanks Old - you are right. Sandilands is the only genuine man-mountain the competition has seen especially with his weight factor added. Street is a string of spaghetti by comparison. I hadn't checked the height of Cox but did think he was taller, perhaps because of his dominance.

I favour a quality follower between 198-202cm as the prototype for the modern ruckman. Jeff White at 194cm and nearly 30 is really endangered, yet Jamar and PJ who fall into that ideal height range have yet to really stake their claims. This must be their year to show what they can do. Neaves perhaps waits in the wings to take it away from both of them in time.

I think I wrote around this time last year after Jeff White's facial injury that we must give Jamar and PJ more game time to remove the unhealthy reliance we had on White. PJ's early end to the season didn't help and Jamar made some gains but disappointed at other times.

This year becomes even more crucial for a successful passing of the baton particularly as we enter our window of opportunity.

And I agree with you also about the the over hysteria surrounding ruck giants, and am glad we went down the Frawley path rather than for the available Renouf for our first round pick.

The delisted Sydney Swan Andrew Ericksen apparently training with us doesn't excite me at all. He sounds too much like a gentle giant if we believe the cons against his name. Ruckmen need to be aggressive and intimidating, and he appears to be anything but that and I don't believe it can be taught. It's either there or it ain't, a bit like your inside or outside midfielders.

Just the fact that he is training with us seems to indicate the list managers are looking in that direction for the rookie draft or the future.

Therefore I'm still curious about Robert Warnock and his credentials, just to follow the club's apparent interest in that player type.

[NO MERGER 20]

I prefer Jamar as backup ruckman, although don't mind him as a tall marking forward either.

[Lord Travis 10,783]

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that PJ is actually a good AFL ruckman. Until such time, the choice is obvious.

Agreed. He hasn't shown he can ruck at all yet, where as Jamar produced some fine tap work this year. PJ looks like he could wind up more a forward than a ruckman. Time will tell.

[neitstar 0]

Write this down P.J will be an absolute freak, we have only seen 20% of his ability. Jamar i don't think will get much better. Can't jump over a Jam Tin, which dosn't help

[Doggo 32]

I think i prefer Johnson.

Had he not hurt himself against Sydney in round 4 (doing an extremely selfless team act), i think things may have panned out very differently in 2006.. Jamar was very lucky that things turned out the way they did, i suspect.

IMHO Jamar is a 'battler' type: He will never have the ability or class to make a consistent impact at AFL level. His tap work is good, but as a footballer he leaves very much to be desired. And while his tap work and marking may be better than Paul's at this stage, what attributes Johnson does have, you cant teach to Jamar... and thats how to naturally win the footy and use it well by hand and foot, as well as his good ground work and ability to become another midfield link, a la Jeff White.

I see the upside to Paul Johnson's game as being far superior, along with the hunger he will have gained from spending the majority of 2006 watching Jamar get a game without necessarilly being made to earn his spot...

But as many have already said, only time will tell...

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Are we likely to see Jamar back in Melbourne colours this year?

(Assuming White and Johnson don't get injured.)

[Jonesy is the next captain 0]

In a previous post I remarked that I loved Jamar which raised a few eyebrows but it looks like people in this thread are on the Jamar bandwagon. Fingers crossed Jamar will be back and she should be the second ruckman, he has an imposing body and he has generally been good overall for us. He is a strong forward when we need a tall as well

[Pates 9,661]

Apart from PJ's unfortunate play on in the final quarter, what i saw made me believe that we had our premanent 2nd ruck. He should be given as much game time as possible.

[Madness 44]

Pfft old news, Mark who?

[CarnTheDees 52]

Pfft old news, Mark who?

Interesting how quickly things change isn't it?

[Dee*ceiving 1,699]

Very dissappointed Jamar hasn't taken his oppurtunities afforded to him early in the year. He has a big imposing body and can take a grab and is a decent shot at goal but he just doesn't get to enough contests or impose his might and will on games the way a man of his stature should. He has also struggled in the ruck itself on most occassions.

[jacey 333]

Interesting how quickly things change isn't it?

Things haven't changed.

THe problem is Jamar hasn't developed. He's exactly in the same position he was 2-3 years ago. Shows glimpes that get us all excited but like many of his team mates, hasn't reached his potential.

[deanox 10,033]

In a previous post I remarked that I loved Jamar which raised a few eyebrows but it looks like people in this thread are on the Jamar bandwagon. Fingers crossed Jamar will be back and she should be the second ruckman, he has an imposing body and he has generally been good overall for us. He is a strong forward when we need a tall as well

i think you'll find that this thread was actually written last year, so most people who thought jamar was the go, thought so last year.

this year he has been very dissapointing. im interested to see if he cannot reinvent himself as a marking forward because honestly thats the only part of his game i think has shown to be good enough for afl...

[Finks 19]

The current poll result surprises me. I voted PJ.

Jamar has had more than ample opportunity to develop his game and demonstrate his worth, and apart from 'decent' tap work, his work around the ground has been particularly disappointing. His work up forward hasn't impressed me to date, and I prefer the natural skill of PJ over Jamar's any day. To me, PJ works harder and has more room to improve. His tap work is improving and with more work will be equal to Jamar's by the end of the year. IMO.

It'll be interesting debate come the end of the year.