The Loss we had to Have...

[Ted Lasso 17,108]

we've played on average games played, the youngest side in the comp most of the year, and with youth comes inconsistency, so while it's extremely dissapointing to drop a winnable game i think most would have to look at this season and Roos' tenure at the club as a huge positive and a sign of us heading in the right direction. 

I quite like the make up of the list and think it's really heading in the right direction, add in Melksham and maybe Hibberd next year and that's some more pace and skill.

another off season in the GYM and working on ours skills, decision making and getting used to the game plan and i suspect we'll be looking very good for a strong finals tilt next year.

[nutbean 8,837]

I don't disagree with most of your assessment on the list- some can be argued.

I have a problem with the loss we had to have. We know what our best looks like  and whilst unrealistic, there is never a loss we should have, Even add a touch a of realism - Geelong at Geelong is a tough ask but we should not lose to the likes of Carlton st the G. 

[What 18,810]

I am already over the loss.  We all knew we would have some very bad losses and some great wins.  Fact is we are by far the youngest team in the comp.  Thats not an excuse its just the way things happen with a team full of inexperience. The season has been another step in the right direction.

Now lets go [censored] the Cats.

[jnrmac 19,312]

13 hours ago, martin said:

Don't always agree with Roos but his presser was spot on. Carlton have numerous big bodied,mature and experienced players,we do not. Extremely young teams are inconsistent whilst the Blues older players can lead the way on a given day.Not happy tonight but our future is brighter. There will more bad performances to come,however,outweighed by the good.

Just excuses and poor ones at that

[jnrmac 19,312]

1 hour ago, Abe said:

we've played on average games played, the youngest side in the comp most of the year, and with youth comes inconsistency, so while it's extremely dissapointing to drop a winnable game i think most would have to look at this season and Roos' tenure at the club as a huge positive and a sign of us heading in the right direction. 

I quite like the make up of the list and think it's really heading in the right direction, add in Melksham and maybe Hibberd next year and that's some more pace and skill.

another off season in the GYM and working on ours skills, decision making and getting used to the game plan and i suspect we'll be looking very good for a strong finals tilt next year.

This is becoming consistent. Does it represent mental fragility? 

[Undeeterred 2,883]

13 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

He didn't 'fail dismally'.  What else would you have him do?  

And by that, I mean - was it his fault that Hogan and Petracca completely stuffed gettable chances in the last quarter?  Was it his fault that Neal-Bullen and Weideman were picked, even though they were clearly wrong decisions?

Jones does everything he can.  He might miss the odd target from time to time, but wasn't the problem at all today.

Lead a team that has lost it's way, for a start.

He was awful yesterday.

[martin 727]

8 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Just excuses and poor ones at that

Reasons, not excuses.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,927]

17 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

I am already over the loss.  We all knew we would have some very bad losses and some great wins.  Fact is we are by far the youngest team in the comp.  Thats not an excuse its just the way things happen with a team full of inexperience. The season has been another step in the right direction.

Now lets go [censored] the Cats.

That is the attitude I have, 1 thing this club has done this year is shown that if they ever have a down game they come back the next week and earn back some respect. Win lose or draw next week I expect us to put up a fight. I hope that come 2018 these loses will be gone, but we have at least 1 more year of dealing with this inbetween some big steps forward.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

44 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Lead a team that has lost it's way, for a start.

He was awful yesterday.

No he wasn't.  

 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

This is becoming consistent. Does it represent mental fragility? 

No, it represents lack of experience.  If we were mentally fragile we wouldn't have rolled the Hawks or kept Port at bay when they came back in the third term.

[Skin Deeamond 339]

14 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

He didn't 'fail dismally'.  What else would you have him do?  

And by that, I mean - was it his fault that Hogan and Petracca completely stuffed gettable chances in the last quarter?  Was it his fault that Neal-Bullen and Weideman were picked, even though they were clearly wrong decisions?

Jones does everything he can.  He might miss the odd target from time to time, but wasn't the problem at all today.

He regularly misses targets and bombs the ball high in the air to no target. He tries his heart out but needs to focus more on the results of his efforts with better disposal.

[Undeeterred 2,883]

26 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

No he wasn't.  

 

Yes he was. Shall we go on?

[Wiseblood 24,636]

13 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Yes he was. Shall we go on?

Burden of proof isn't on me.  I've explained my stance earlier.  What else do you want him to do?  If he had an 'awful' game, as you put it, then please explain why.

[Undeeterred 2,883]

20 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Burden of proof isn't on me.  I've explained my stance earlier.  What else do you want him to do?  If he had an 'awful' game, as you put it, then please explain why.

So have I.

The main job of a leader is to lead.

Jones had no influence on driving change on the ground yesterday, which is what I would expect from a captain.

In terms of actual play, he turned his back on Hogan who was 20 metres on his own, then sprayed the shot on goal, at a crucial moment when we really needed one. He dragged a ball under himself 30m out from Carlton's goal at another crucial point which cost us another one, and was flat footed on multiple occasions.

On the flip side, I can't recall much in the way of positive contribution other than fairly undamaging accumulation of possessions.

He did stand in the hole once, and got kneed in the back. The peanut behind me had a crack at him for not buttering up and putting in a second effort, which was a bit unreasonable. I had a go at him about it, given Jones could hardly move after that contest, but he was generally poor all day.

[Red and Blue realist 2,026]

I like the sentiment but not necessarily the title of the thread. Earlier in the pre-season to show the guys what we need to do to go to the next level we should show them a replay of this game, then follow up with the Hawks game.

Show what level of intensity we need to bring all the time to be competitive and go far into a season, highlight that if we think it will just happen then the comp is too even and we'll get embarrassed. Just showing the Hawks game will only get them feeling good, but we also need to know how to play when things aren't going our way which is when intensity and hunger for the contest could at lets allow us to stay in an ugly game like yesterday. 

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,762]

6 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I like the sentiment but not necessarily the title of the thread. Earlier in the pre-season to show the guys what we need to do to go to the next level we should show them a replay of this game, then follow up with the Hawks game.

Show what level of intensity we need to bring all the time to be competitive and go far into a season, highlight that if we think it will just happen then the comp is too even and we'll get embarrassed. Just showing the Hawks game will only get them feeling good, but we also need to know how to play when things aren't going our way which is when intensity and hunger for the contest could at lets allow us to stay in an ugly game like yesterday. 

Agree totally and for the most part our intensity and effort has been great. We generally lose games because of skill and execution. Yesterday, we lost because of our poor effort. 

[Sir Why You Little 34,839]

42 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

So have I.

The main job of a leader is to lead.

Jones had no influence on driving change on the ground yesterday, which is what I would expect from a captain.

In terms of actual play, he turned his back on Hogan who was 20 metres on his own, then sprayed the shot on goal, at a crucial moment when we really needed one. He dragged a ball under himself 30m out from Carlton's goal at another crucial point which cost us another one, and was flat footed on multiple occasions.

On the flip side, I can't recall much in the way of positive contribution other than fairly undamaging accumulation of possessions.

He did stand in the hole once, and got kneed in the back. The peanut behind me had a crack at him for not buttering up and putting in a second effort, which was a bit unreasonable. I had a go at him about it, given Jones could hardly move after that contest, but he was generally poor all day.

Spot on UD. It's always the same in these crucial games. 

We win yesterday and a huge chunk of respect. 

The game was lost at the first bounce and that is the fault of The Leader.

It is his job to have the troops ready once on the ground

[Wiseblood 24,636]

1 hour ago, Undeeterred said:

So have I.

The main job of a leader is to lead.

Jones had no influence on driving change on the ground yesterday, which is what I would expect from a captain.

In terms of actual play, he turned his back on Hogan who was 20 metres on his own, then sprayed the shot on goal, at a crucial moment when we really needed one. He dragged a ball under himself 30m out from Carlton's goal at another crucial point which cost us another one, and was flat footed on multiple occasions.

On the flip side, I can't recall much in the way of positive contribution other than fairly undamaging accumulation of possessions.

He did stand in the hole once, and got kneed in the back. The peanut behind me had a crack at him for not buttering up and putting in a second effort, which was a bit unreasonable. I had a go at him about it, given Jones could hardly move after that contest, but he was generally poor all day.

So you've grabbed 2 pieces of play you didn't like, magnified them to make them look as terrible as possible, and then almost blown off his effort to take a hard hit for the team by backing back into a pack?  Well done.

While Jones is never going to be a matchwinner, I consistently see him getting to every contest and doing everything he can for the side.  Blaming yesterday's loss on him, just as WYL has done above me which is absolutely ridiculous, is short sighted in the extreme.  He might have made a few mistakes, no doubt about it, but much of his hard work on gameday almost goes unnoticed now that we are actually a half decent side.  He is constantly driving the team forward and doing everything in his power to turn the tide.

Again, as I said earlier, players missing easy shots on goal, players making turnovers, the selection committee bringing in players who aren't ready or played out of position are well and truly out of his hands.

His game was solid yesterday, but to lay the loss at his feet and label his game 'awful' is just plain wrong.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

53 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Spot on UD. It's always the same in these crucial games. 

We win yesterday and a huge chunk of respect. 

The game was lost at the first bounce and that is the fault of The Leader.

It is his job to have the troops ready once on the ground

One of the dumbest comments I've seen here.  Yeah Jonesy, it's your fault Weideman was selected and Hogan and Petracca missed a handful of easy shots on goal.  How dare you not go over and take the kick yourself or somehow get magical powers that blow the kicks through the goals. 

[Undeeterred 2,883]

13 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

So you've grabbed 2 pieces of play you didn't like, magnified them to make them look as terrible as possible, and then almost blown off his effort to take a hard hit for the team by backing back into a pack?  Well done.

While Jones is never going to be a matchwinner, I consistently see him getting to every contest and doing everything he can for the side.  Blaming yesterday's loss on him, just as WYL has done above me which is absolutely ridiculous, is short sighted in the extreme.  He might have made a few mistakes, no doubt about it, but much of his hard work on gameday almost goes unnoticed now that we are actually a half decent side.  He is constantly driving the team forward and doing everything in his power to turn the tide.

Again, as I said earlier, players missing easy shots on goal, players making turnovers, the selection committee bringing in players who aren't ready or played out of position are well and truly out of his hands.

His game was solid yesterday, but to lay the loss at his feet and label his game 'awful' is just plain wrong.

Don't distort my words.

You asked me to provide examples. I did, off the top of my head. I could probably go and find footage of him making one metre handballs to blokes standing still as well. Why don't you show me some examples of positive contributions, beyond the one I've just spoken about? Of the examples you provided, he did in fact miss easy shots and committed turnovers. Yes, selection is not in his control, but if you think having the two unforced omissions in would have changed the way we approached that game, you're dreaming.

What you'll find I have said in the post game thread is that we have a complete failure of leadership, generally, in this team. Jones is the captain - ergo, he must take at least some of the fall for this. He's not on his own.

Our leadership group is constituted of Jones, Garland (who can't get a game), Vince (who I think we can all say makes more very silly mistakes than someone in his position should), Tom McDonald, Gawn and Viney (no complaints on the last three). The fact that half our LG is 24 or younger, and one of other three can't get a game ahead of a pack of 19 and 20 year olds, says more about the current state of the club than I need to.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Undeeterred

[Sir Why You Little 34,839]

13 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

One of the dumbest comments I've seen here.  Yeah Jonesy, it's your fault Weideman was selected and Hogan and Petracca missed a handful of easy shots on goal.  How dare you not go over and take the kick yourself or somehow get magical powers that blow the kicks through the goals. 

Wise you are a passionate supporter but your attitude towards our leadership is why it hasn't changed for a very long time. 

It is the job of the Captain to make sure his troops are switched on. That's why he takes a larger salary. Responsibility is given to the captain. 

It was sadly lacking from the first bounce yesterday. That is a fact. 

You can dress up any excuse you like...

[Uncle Fester 2,840]

Not fussed about the season. If you offered me 10 wins and talking finals in round 22 in Feb I'd have taken it in a heartbeat. We call them awesome when they beat Hawthorn, and dispicable when they lose to Carlton... the truth is in the middle. Young team coming off a decade of being the easybeats. We need to relax a little and see what 2017 brings.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

14 hours ago, rjay said:

Games like today's give a really good gauge, they are true to form for a young team as are games like the Hawthorn win.

rjay I haven't read all of this but I read your first post and then this one and some of the replies so apologies in advance if I'm missing something.

Some good number of years ago I was chatting with Craig Cameron about evaluating players.  He related a story about Simon Black from way back in 1997.  Simon as many will know went on to win a Brownlow and play in the 3 flags for the Lions.  He was a magic player.

Craig said that at the beginning of 1997 he loved Simon and thought he would be a champion.  But as the year went on and he spoke to other people instead of looking at what he could do they started to talk of his shortcomings.  He was slow, not a particularly good kick and so on it went. They picked him apart. In the end with all the negative talk Craig went off him and instead drafted Travis Johnstone (1) and Troy Longmuir (22) ahead of Black (31).  Simon clearly wasn't a star at U18 level so was never in the hunt for our first pick and at 31 every other club saw his faults but he was right in the mix at pick 22.

Craig reckoned it was one of the best lessons he learned.  Never forget what players could do, be balanced when evaluating and recognise your gut instinct. Every player has weaknesses.

IMO your opening post has reflected the CAC experience and you've focused too much on a players weaknesses rather than what they can do.  Frost is a perfect example.  He is fast, agile, has good hands, great closing speed, big and brave.  That's not a bad skill set.  He makes mistakes but they are not deal breakers.  Frawley makes mistakes but won the Hawks the GF last year with his shut down job on Kennedy.

Our advantage IMO is that we have so many young players playing and learning together.  Much of our team will be the same in 6 to 8 years time as it is today.  McDonald x 2, Hogan, Salem, Watts, Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw, Gawn, Tyson, Oliver, Stretch, Kent, Frost, Weideman and Hunt - that's 16 players - have a very realistic chance to be there over the journey.  That's huge.  In 3 or 4 years time they will be right in the window.  All have their weaknesses but what you ignore, or perhaps haven't said, is the benefit of being together over the journey will be a massive advantage over other clubs with perhaps only GWS better positioned.

There's not one dot of pessimism here.  We are beautifully placed for the future, better than we could have hoped.  And with Jason Taylor's track record on recruiting, McCartney on development and fast becoming a destination club what is there not to like?  Remember the final product is much greater than the sum of the parts.

People should realize this is a journey and although we didn't like yesterdays stopover this trips itinerary is pretty bloody good. 

[rjay 24,040]

9 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

rjay I haven't read all of this but I read your first post and then this one and some of the replies so apologies in advance if I'm missing something.

Some good number of years ago I was chatting with Craig Cameron about evaluating players.  He related a story about Simon Black from way back in 1997.  Simon as many will know went on to win a Brownlow and play in the 3 flags for the Lions.  He was a magic player.

Craig said that at the beginning of 1997 he loved Simon and thought he would be a champion.  But as the year went on and he spoke to other people instead of looking at what he could do they started to talk of his shortcomings.  He was slow, not a particularly good kick and so on it went. They picked him apart. In the end with all the negative talk Craig went off him and instead drafted Travis Johnstone (1) and Troy Longmuir (22) ahead of Black (31).  Simon clearly wasn't a star at U18 level so was never in the hunt for our first pick and at 31 every other club saw his faults but he was right in the mix at pick 22.

Craig reckoned it was one of the best lessons he learned.  Never forget what players could do, be balanced when evaluating and recognise your gut instinct. Every player has weaknesses.

IMO your opening post has reflected the CAC experience and you've focused too much on a players weaknesses rather than what they can do.  Frost is a perfect example.  He is fast, agile, has good hands, great closing speed, big and brave.  That's not a bad skill set.  He makes mistakes but they are not deal breakers.  Frawley makes mistakes but won the Hawks the GF last year with his shut down job on Kennedy.

Our advantage IMO is that we have so many young players playing and learning together.  Much of our team will be the same in 6 to 8 years time as it is today.  McDonald x 2, Hogan, Salem, Watts, Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw, Gawn, Tyson, Oliver, Stretch, Kent, Frost, Weideman and Hunt - that's 16 players - have a very realistic chance to be there over the journey.  That's huge.  In 3 or 4 years time they will be right in the window.  All have their weaknesses but what you ignore, or perhaps haven't said, is the benefit of being together over the journey will be a massive advantage over other clubs with perhaps only GWS better positioned.

There's not one dot of pessimism here.  We are beautifully placed for the future, better than we could have hoped.  And with Jason Taylor's track record on recruiting, McCartney on development and fast becoming a destination club what is there not to like?  Remember the final product is much greater than the sum of the parts.

People should realize this is a journey and although we didn't like yesterdays stopover this trips itinerary is pretty bloody good. 

Agree with a lot of what you have said here.

...but with Frost what you have identified is his athletic prowess, no problem with that. As a footballer I see him as lacking, even in his good games it's his athletic prowess you see. He doesn't have great hands, he makes poor decisions, doesn't position himself well and is a poor kick, I'm not sure this can be turned around.

The problem Cameron and many recruiters had is they looked for an athlete when they should have seen the footballer.

[dpositive 1,558]

Lots of good stuff here

but The loss we had to have

NO

This really needed to be the win we had to have. Players should have been set to win this match to take their chances next week and perhaps then a final. I understand we had the young team against the experienced etc and I certainly am not dispirited with the thoughts of the future. But this game was there to win. If we can beat Hawthorn we can beat the Blues.

That we didnt is the fault of the coaches. Poor selection , poor preparation , poor game day tactics. I hope they had some reason for not having this team selected with the best match ups and the best tactics against a side below us on the ladder. The coaches need to tell the players that their opportunities are fleeting and they must be grabbed. The coaches need to have the players switched on and delivering to a plan. If the plan isnt working they need to have another plan. If the coaches are happy to accept the outcomes of the inconsistency acknowledging progress I can understand that as a plan. But as a long suffering supporter I have seen too many 6 year plans not reach fruition.

Opportunities must be exploited, to be in a position to prolong the season will restore supporters and maybe even grow the next generation. Performances like yesterday A LOSS we had to have NO NO NO. We have lost, we have lost hope, we have lost interest until next season, and if someone tells me then there is a loss we need to have I will say the same thing. We can lose. We will lose. There is a loss we  will learn from but there is never a loss we need to have there is only a win we didnt have

Oh well you must surely get my drift by now. I am disappointed again.