Where we are heading

[deanox 10,045]

From The Age mid season report card:

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-season-2016-melbourne-midseason-report-20160619-gpmull.html

What coach Paul Roos says: "We're trying to set our team up to when we eventually play finals that the game style that we put in place is going to be successful in that environment. That's the focus because we're seeing some teams, without mentioning them, they set up a game style that probably gets you to between eighth to 10th but struggle to get above eighth or seventh, so we don't want to do that."

 

I think this statement puts into context sooner of the dejection and game style issues we've been discussing. It isn't about winning games, it is about developing a winning game style and winning culture. We are still in a development phase and we aren't cutting that development short for the sake of winning an extra 2 games this year,  when it really doesn't count. 

 

I'll back the football club on this one. We've spent money to put a plan and program in place,  and I prefer that we see it out rather than crumble to pressure for short term game. 

 

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

Interesting situation because we also don't want membership and sponsorship to drop off

a fine balancing game

We still need to finish the year off strongly...

[beelzebub 23,390]

Im not sure how winning games is divorced from winning style/culture.

[Diamond_Jim 12,687]

If the game style is similar to that of the Bulldogs I question whether it can take you beyond positions 5 or 6. It is just too easy for the "disciplined and skilful" teams to pick apart the helter skelter game style they play.

It also requires an across the board skill level rarely seen in the team's players ranked 10-16 let alone the last 6.

On its day it can be a winner but consistently through the season and enough to get you to top 4 the jury is still out.

Anyway let's hope it's a "good ride"

[Chris 2,892]

5 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Im not sure how winning games is divorced from winning style/culture.

It all depends how you win them. If you look at port, they put in place a game plan that was great, for a year. Then everyone worked in out and they have struggled. Roos is basically saying we could do that and win heaps in one year, and then struggle for the next few. What he is trying to put in place is a game plan and system that may not have the instant gratification but it will win more games in the long run and deliver more success long term. This approach may not include the instant gratification the other approach gives. 

It will be interesting to see if Carlton crash next year or not. The dogs have stayed up and I expect them to continue to do so due to Maccas building at the start. WC seem to have dropped, especially interstate, are they the next Port?

 

[praha 11,253]

10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Interesting situation because we also don't want membership and sponsorship to drop off

a fine balancing game

We still need to finish the year off strongly...

Doubt that sponsors would drop off because we're sitting comfortably at around 35k average per home game, better than Bulldogs, North, Blues, Saints, even Cats who play more big primetime games. Generally good press this year and a lot of positivity so I would think we're safe for sponsors right now.

Membership is still a concern because there's little growth. We also have a relatively small support base next to other Melbourne teams. Making the finals this year would push us beyond 45k in 2017 but 40k would still be a stretch in 2017 (although I would think we'd get there).

I always thought that in 2014 and 2015, Roos' style was at odds with what Jackson and co. we're trying to achieve. We played ugly, unattractive football, and no one outside of Melbourne supporters wanted to watch the Demons.

Roos is really applying a similar philosophy here as he did with the Swans. Melbourne isn't in a situation where it can afford to drop off again, so it needs sustained success over a long period. Sydney in the 2000s was looking down the barrel and now they're in a position where as a club, it's success or bust: they simply can't afford to bottom out like a Collingwood or a Hawthorn or Geelong. Those teams would survive bottoming out, but Sydney just isn't in a position where it can take that risk. 

Melbourne as the club we know absolutely must be relevant and successful for a long period. The way the league is now and the way information is spread through the internet and social media, when you're down, you're really down. When it rains it pours. It's a long climb back and my pass mark for this year was 10 wins, not finals. I'm fairly confident with where we're out. We need to iron out the kind of losses against Essendon, St Kilda, but tough loses will still happen. As frustrating as Sunday was, it was no disaster. We'll bounce back against the Crows and the media will jump back on us and start talking finals again like they have after every Melbourne win. That's the best we could ask for from a branding perspective at this point.

Dees 2017 premiers. 

[deanox 10,045]

21 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Im not sure how winning games is divorced from winning style/culture.

I'm  surprised you can't see that. 

 

We want to be a club with a strong, pro active game plan,  that all players instinctively follow,  that holds up under pressure and in a variety of conditions. 

We don't want to be a club that performs well against weaker clubs in good conditions and falters whenever the blow torch is applied. 

To achieve this we are selecting the players who follow team (not the players who may natch up the best against particular opposition players or game plans). To achieve this,  we are sticking to our guns and trying to implement our game plan and structures,  even when we are being beaten. 

 

Perhaps we could have beaten St Kilda. We could have thrown out our game plan and gone to a plan B to salvage the match.  But we wouldn't have learnt how to get our structures right under pressure, which is needed if we want to be a top 4 team.

Edited June 21, 2016 by deanox

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

4 minutes ago, Chris said:

It all depends how you win them. If you look at port, they put in place a game plan that was great, for a year. Then everyone worked in out and they have struggled. Roos is basically saying we could do that and win heaps in one year, and then struggle for the next few. What he is trying to put in place is a game plan and system that may not have the instant gratification but it will win more games in the long run and deliver more success long term. This approach may not include the instant gratification the other approach gives. 

It will be interesting to see if Carlton crash next year or not. The dogs have stayed up and I expect them to continue to do so due to Maccas building at the start. WC seem to have dropped, especially interstate, are they the next Port?

 

Interesting point that you make

and in theory probabably the right one

The problem i see is that it is still going to be hard to attract the top tier players to the club. 

We haven't had any for years

The more you lose the harder it is to know what to do to win...

Goodwin and Macca still have a long hill to climb

[Chris 2,892]

4 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Interesting point that you make

and in theory probabably the right one

The problem i see is that it is still going to be hard to attract the top tier players to the club. 

We haven't had any for years

The more you lose the harder it is to know what to do to win...

Goodwin and Macca still have a long hill to climb

I am not so worried about bringing in the top tier players, that sounds odd but I think the bunch of kids we have include some of that next top tier so it is more a question of not losing them than bringing in new ones. I also think we wont have a real tilt at a flag till at least 2019, by which time the current top tier are getting old, unless you plan on getting a gun 20-23 you old into the club, in which case go for it. 

You also highlight what I think is the biggest hurdle the club face at the minute which is they don't know how to win. At some point this should click but I don't see that happening until they go into a game against a good side where it is close to even money and then knock them over. Winning the 50/50 games against good sides (which wont come for a while) will teach you far more than winning one you aren't expected to win (i.e. Geelong last year). 

[Willmoy1947 4,198]

Yes, good subject this, contrary to some others. Couldn't help but notice a lack of  over concern in the box in the last quarter, Sunday. Pretty interesting game on Sunday. We were right up there up to three quarter time with intensity and second, third efforts. Just short on ability. That said I suppose its all about team and game management throughout the whole year.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Interesting point that you make

and in theory probabably the right one

The problem i see is that it is still going to be hard to attract the top tier players to the club. 

We haven't had any for years

The more you lose the harder it is to know what to do to win...

Goodwin and Macca still have a long hill to climb

That will happen when the premiership window opens. I would say we are looking at the end of 2018 when that truely becomes a posibility. For the time being we have to lock in our kids with top tier potential and pick up some middle/middle and a half type tier players. Not quite top tier but good enough to improve the team. Then just get that 1 superstar (or have a kid develop into them) and it will all be in place to finaly make that last push to the top.

As for the question 'where are we heading?' We are heading on a long road to a Grand Final, be we have a long way and a few gut wrenching speed bumps to go through before we get there. One day!

[beelzebub 23,390]

15 minutes ago, deanox said:

I'm  surprised you can't see that. 

 

surely the latter provides the former.. When does a losing style/culture...win ?

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

9 minutes ago, Chris said:

I am not so worried about bringing in the top tier players, that sounds odd but I think the bunch of kids we have include some of that next top tier so it is more a question of not losing them than bringing in new ones. I also think we wont have a real tilt at a flag till at least 2019, by which time the current top tier are getting old, unless you plan on getting a gun 20-23 you old into the club, in which case go for it. 

You also highlight what I think is the biggest hurdle the club face at the minute which is they don't know how to win. At some point this should click but I don't see that happening until they go into a game against a good side where it is close to even money and then knock them over. Winning the 50/50 games against good sides (which wont come for a while) will teach you far more than winning one you aren't expected to win (i.e. Geelong last year). 

Agree with most of that. 

But by not importing A Grade Talent how will our Young Guns learn the Absolute way to winning when faced with real heat?

None of our Leadership Group can handle that level

[Demonised 1,361]

This year is about next year.

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

5 minutes ago, Demonised said:

This year is about next year.

It has been that way since 2006

[DeeSpencer 26,273]

There's a big gap between the good and bad sides at the moment and we are in the middle.

Unfortunately we've faired poorly against the Saints and Power who are in the same bracket as us. We had a good shot at North. Beat GWS playing up and down footy in round 1, which is never a true form guide. Were right in the game against an undermanned Hawthorn in conditions that suited us.

Where are we at/where are we heading is really hard to measure right now. We are playing a game style that does open the game up more this year which is a huge positive. Our inability to pressure teams is a massive negative though. I know we are a young side but the lack of pressure against good teams is a huge concern for me. 

Then again, if we start to get pressure on against good teams we've got the talent and game style to capitalise. 

The last 9 games will almost all be big tests for us. 

4 against top 8 teams - Adel, Haw, WC, Geel

2 important winnable games at the G that the pressure will be on for - GC, Carl

3 road (if you count Etihad) games against similar teams that we haven't won in years prior - St K, Freo, Port

No more early season, expectation free games where we can just turn up and smash an out of form Rich or Coll, and if GC get players back there's no easy beats.

[DeeSpencer 26,273]

In summary, I think we are downhill skiing a bit right now. We sense a kill and the team lifts and we play fast, aggressive, skillful footy. We play good teams and the pressure gets to us and we become fumbly, disjointed in the backline and lazy going forward. 

It's ok if that's where we are at, but at least once in the last 9 games we have to grind out a 4 quarter performance against a good team to take confidence in to next year. 

[old dee 24,001]

With the exception of the loss to Essendrug we are exactly where I thought we would be at the break.

I thought we would win 10 games this year and still believe we will.

We have come from an VFL list at the end of 2013 and while we have improved substantially we are still a work in progress.

We have the youngest list going around and there still a number of players that are not AFL standard.

In 2016 I will take a list that can take it up to the teams in the bottom half of the ladder.

In 2014 we could hardly beat the bottom couple.

[Chris 2,892]

34 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Agree with most of that. 

But by not importing A Grade Talent how will our Young Guns learn the Absolute way to winning when faced with real heat?

None of our Leadership Group can handle that level

That is the trick, and that is where it may take a little longer to learn it. We do have players there to provide the advice off the field, and the coaches, the problem is they may not do it on the field. 

I think with someone like Viney leading the group we aren't too badly placed, he will not stop or lie down until we win, that can be very contagious. 

[mauriesy 7,410]

21 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

It has been that way since 2006

That doesn't make it wrong.

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

8 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

That doesn't make it wrong.

No but the club has been treading water. 

So far it will not take the big leap into the air. 

The club has never trusted itself for decades. When Roos walked in after 3 years i thought we would have taken that leap by now...

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

16 minutes ago, Chris said:

That is the trick, and that is where it may take a little longer to learn it. We do have players there to provide the advice off the field, and the coaches, the problem is they may not do it on the field. 

I think with someone like Viney leading the group we aren't too badly placed, he will not stop or lie down until we win, that can be very contagious. 

Still think we need to import Talent. Its too risky to just hope

We have to make up a lot of ground. Not just yearly incremental improvements. 

All clubs do that. 

We need an '87 type run that gives the B Graders confidence to believe. 

 

[old dee 24,001]

21 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

That doesn't make it wrong.

The converse is also true!

[Watts the matter 1,235]

1 hour ago, deanox said:

From The Age mid season report card:

http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-season-2016-melbourne-midseason-report-20160619-gpmull.html

What coach Paul Roos says: "We're trying to set our team up to when we eventually play finals that the game style that we put in place is going to be successful in that environment. That's the focus because we're seeing some teams, without mentioning them, they set up a game style that probably gets you to between eighth to 10th but struggle to get above eighth or seventh, so we don't want to do that."

 

I think this statement puts into context sooner of the dejection and game style issues we've been discussing. It isn't about winning games, it is about developing a winning game style and winning culture. We are still in a development phase and we aren't cutting that development short for the sake of winning an extra 2 games this year,  when it really doesn't count. 

 

I'll back the football club on this one. We've spent money to put a plan and program in place,  and I prefer that we see it out rather than crumble to pressure for short term game. 

 

 

 

What? I'm a simple person but this makes no sense.

How do you develop a winning culture when your focus isn't winning games?

IMO it's a cop out from Roosy and an easy thing to say given he wont be around to cop the heat if it doesn't work out. Our game style has shown that we fall right in that bracket at this stage.

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,307]

9 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

What? I'm a simple person but this makes no sense.

How do you develop a winning culture when your focus isn't winning games?

IMO it's a cop out from Roosy and an easy thing to say given he wont be around to cop the heat if it doesn't work out. Our game style has shown that we fall right in that bracket at this stage.

 

 

And that is what worries me. 

3 years is enough time to rebuild a  Football Department if there is belief and committment

i think we have under achieved so far by quite a a way