Too many mids?

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

1 minute ago, P-man said:

Geeze, ANB has been binned pretty quickly. Bizarre. Wasn't he SA's best player or close to in the TAC Cup? A second year player who destroys it in the VFL is worth persevering with. He just hasn't been offered the same opportunities as the likes of Harmes and Hunt. 

Let him slide elsewhere and he is more than capable of burning us. 

I wouldnt bin him, but he hasnt shown as much as either of Harmes or Hunt. Doesnt help him that we have so many inside mids, more than anything i think he doesnt fit right now, but given time he could take the spot of a Bugg or a Vanders. Given and if we keep him around then in 4/5 years he could replace a vince/jones. 

[P-man 13,366]

Just now, ArtificialWisdom said:

I wouldnt bin him, but he hasnt shown as much as either of Harmes or Hunt. Doesnt help him that we have so many inside mids, more than anything i think he doesnt fit right now, but given time he could take the spot of a Bugg or a Vanders. Given and if we keep him around then in 4/5 years he could replace a vince/jones. 

I thought he played well against GC, albeit against an opponent that allowed him more time and space. He was poor on the weekend but I would've retained him personally. Kent is a lucky lad.

Harmes has had plenty of stinkers this year, let's not pretend otherwise. Hunt is a goer, but he's far from the complete package. However it's apples and oranges and as you say, ANB plays in an area where there is a lot more competition.

[dazzledavey36 54,826]

37 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

We have too many mids that should not be part of our future or are yet to be proven

Arguably Grimes, Harmes, Kennedy, MJones, Michie, Neal-Bullen and Newton.

What i have learnt over the past couple of weeks is that we overate our depth.

Guys like Newton ANB Michie who have dominated VFL struggle to make an impact at AFL level when needed. 

[P-man 13,366]

7 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

What i have learnt over the past couple of weeks is that we overate our depth.

Guys like Newton ANB Michie who have dominated VFL struggle to make an impact at AFL level when needed. 

Newton and Michie are 24. ANB is 20. 

He's been given two attempts this year to make an impact. He was pretty good in one of them.

I find it a bit crazy that he is being spoken about as another Newton.

But I take your overall point that the midfield depth gets overstated.

Edited June 3, 2016 by P-man

[beelzebub 23,331]

We're a long way from having too many of anything  ( of  quality )

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

1 hour ago, Bonkers said:

Harmes could develop into an A grader if he cleans up his disposal & can continue to grow his tank. He is pretty hard at it, can take a mark over head & kick a goal, win his own ball & run to receive on the outside, these are all pretty damaging attributes from a match up perspective. If he can get himself to a level where he runs through the midfield more & is more precise with his disposal he would be a pretty good player. At the moment he kicks his fair share of goals but I think in one or two more years time he could be up there as A grade. All personal opinion of course, hope he does get there.

He shows so much and i hope you're right. Either way I think he is 100% going to be part of our best 22 for the future. Just needs to become more consistant, which will come over time, I hope the same for Kent.
 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, P-man said:

Newton and Michie are 24. ANB is 20. 

He's been given two attempts this year to make an impact. He was pretty good in one of them.

I find it a bit crazy that he is being spoken about as another Newton.

But I take your overall point that the midfield depth gets overstated.

ANB is most definitely worth persisting with.  He might not have taken his chances like we hoped in the past two games, but I think there is enough to work with over the next few seasons to suggest he could become a handy role player in our side.

If Newton and Michie don't improve from here then you would think that's it for them.  We are their second club and if they can't make it now then you would think they won't make it period.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

1 hour ago, P-man said:

I thought he played well against GC, albeit against an opponent that allowed him more time and space. He was poor on the weekend but I would've retained him personally. Kent is a lucky lad.

Harmes has had plenty of stinkers this year, let's not pretend otherwise. Hunt is a goer, but he's far from the complete package. However it's apples and oranges and as you say, ANB plays in an area where there is a lot more competition.

Kent will have to play out of form for an extended period for him to be dopped because we a desperate for the forward pace. With kennedy out and fighting for a spot it might help the pressure but Kent keeps playing a few good games mixed in with bad ones which means he keeps getting the benifit of the doubt. Same with Harmes. Both of them could star tomorrow then just as easily be putrid the following week

I did think ANB was a chance to stay in with viney out and Vanders wouldnt be match fit. Although from what ive seen of ANB at VFL level (admitedly limited) he is just an accumulator. While i think they can be usefull especially as depth, they also tend to get left out of the team despite big numbers over a player who has huge impact each time they get the ball. I mean we were calling for him for weeks cos of huge numbers, he comes in and is OK at best and gets dropped... Then we say the FD didn't know what they are doing leaving him out all that time.

I'm fairly back and forth on him (you can probably tell) and although he is worth keeping around for a few more years, im more just hopefull than confident he will become a player.

[P-man 13,366]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

ANB is most definitely worth persisting with.  He might not have taken his chances like we hoped in the past two games, but I think there is enough to work with over the next few seasons to suggest he could become a handy role player in our side.

If Newton and Michie don't improve from here then you would think that's it for them.  We are their second club and if they can't make it now then you would think they won't make it period.

Michie and Newton are very much depth players. Whether the club is happy to retain them as such only time will tell. I think Michie gets underrated offensively, but defensively he still lacks urgency which is disappointing. In the side and culture being developed, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[P-man 13,366]

2 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Kent will have to play out of form for an extended period for him to be dopped because we a desperate for the forward pace. With kennedy out and fighting for a spot it might help the pressure but Kent keeps playing a few good games mixed in with bad ones which means he keeps getting the benifit of the doubt. Same with Harmes. Both of them could star tomorrow then just as easily be putrid the following week

I did think ANB was a chance to stay in with viney out and Vanders wouldnt be match fit. Although from what ive seen of ANB at VFL level (admitedly limited) he is just an accumulator. While i think they can be usefull especially as depth, they also tend to get left out of the team despite big numbers over a player who has huge impact each time they get the ball. I mean we were calling for him for weeks cos of huge numbers, he comes in and is OK at best and gets dropped... Then we say the FD didn't know what they are doing leaving him out all that time.

I'm fairly back and forth on him (you can probably tell) and although he is worth keeping around for a few more years, im more just hopefull than confident he will become a player.

Having only been able to watch Casey through the odd video I'll admit that I probably give more weight to his raw numbers than I should. He may just be an accumulator at this stage and certainly he looks like someone who needs time to develop in terms of his decisonmaking. But in terms of his skill set and his attack on the ball, I see a lot to work with.

Not knowing Kennedy's situation, I don't know if he was dropped purely on performance or if there was a mystery injury involved.  Dropping both he and Kent would upset the balance no doubt, but Kent has gone missing when the chips are down quite badly this year. I think overall it's been a pretty lacklustre season and I'm starting to think he may be overrated. Hopefully he tosses that in my face this weekend.

[praha 11,240]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

We might get a late pick for someone like ANB if he want's to move on for more opportunity...

 

Gee I hope we don't. ANB seems to be like someone that would smoke us and blow the comp away at another club. We should definitely hold onto him. Still extremely young and inexperienced but certainly has what it takes imo.

[rjay 24,916]

1 minute ago, praha said:

Gee I hope we don't. ANB seems to be like someone that would smoke us and blow the comp away at another club. We should definitely hold onto him. Still extremely young and inexperienced but certainly has what it takes imo.

Not saying we should 'praha' but he's probably the only fringe mid with some value. The comment was made to show that we don't really have any "trade bait"...

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, praha said:

Gee I hope we don't. ANB seems to be like someone that would smoke us and blow the comp away at another club. We should definitely hold onto him. Still extremely young and inexperienced but certainly has what it takes imo.

I think we've generally been pretty good in our list management in terms of who we let go.  How many have we delisted or traded that have kicked on after us?  And I mean properly kicked on.  Petterd, Sylvia, Gysberts, Maric, Rivers?  Nope.  Howe has played okay in the last 2 games and Chip has been solid for the Hawks, but I'll back the club in to make the right decision.  If they feel that trading him nets us a pick that will help us get another player we need, then I say go for it.

I do agree, though, that I think there is something to work with going forward.  I'd like to see him given another chance before the season is out so we can see what he can do.

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

5 minutes ago, P-man said:

Having only been able to watch Casey through the odd video I'll admit that I probably give more weight to his raw numbers than I should. He may just be an accumulator at this stage and certainly he looks like someone who needs time to develop in terms of his decisonmaking. But in terms of his skill set and his attack on the ball, I see a lot to work with.

Not knowing Kennedy's situation, I don't know if he was dropped purely on performance or if there was a mystery injury involved.  Dropping both he and Kent would upset the balance no doubt, but Kent has gone missing when the chips are down quite badly this year. I think overall it's been a pretty lacklustre season and I'm starting to think he may be overrated. Hopefully he tosses that in my face this weekend.

Kent is so hard for me to judge without bias. When he first start I latched onto him and said he was going to be our number 1 small forward after 5 years. A lot of good games just as many bad and a long term injury later I still think he can be that star but he just continues to tease and I'm starting to question if he will be that star I was hoing for.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,815]

15 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I think we've generally been pretty good in our list management in terms of who we let go.  How many have we delisted or traded that have kicked on after us?  And I mean properly kicked on.  Petterd, Sylvia, Gysberts, Maric, Rivers?  Nope.  Howe has played okay in the last 2 games and Chip has been solid for the Hawks, but I'll back the club in to make the right decision.  If they feel that trading him nets us a pick that will help us get another player we need, then I say go for it.

I do agree, though, that I think there is something to work with going forward.  I'd like to see him given another chance before the season is out so we can see what he can do.

The main one we have let slip (and I can understand some of the reasoning) was big Steff Martin and to a small degree Cheeny.

While in some respects I'd like to see him do well, I also hope that Fitzy isn't another who could yet burn us given the opportunity and if he can get his body right.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[P-man 13,366]

4 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

The main one we have let slip (and I can understand some of the reasoning) was big Steff Martin and to a small degree Cheeny.

I saw Cheney doing a presser the other day. Couldn't believe my eyes. I don't think I'd ever heard him talk before, let alone be considered worthy of fronting the media. Good on him.

Edited June 3, 2016 by P-man

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,815]

2 hours ago, Bonkers said:

Harmes could develop into an A grader if he cleans up his disposal & can continue to grow his tank. He is pretty hard at it, can take a mark over head & kick a goal, win his own ball & run to receive on the outside, these are all pretty damaging attributes from a match up perspective. If he can get himself to a level where he runs through the midfield more & is more precise with his disposal he would be a pretty good player.

I actually think Harmes is one of our better disposers of the footy.  Seen him hit big Jessy and others with beautiful passes which hit them laces out a number of times this year.  I think the thing is he needs to get better at doing it consistently (like many of our young players), but to me he has shown he has a good basic foot skills as something to work with... not sure that all of our players have that.

Also one thing we need to be mindful of with the likes of Harmes, ANB, Billy, Gus, Trac and the like is that they are still only 1st to 2nd/3rd year players at best.  In years gone by, these guys wouldn't even be getting games at Hawthorn or the Swans and not all players develop at the same rate, so way too early to put too much judgement into their ultimate potential at this point.

Also worth noting that whilst the trend has been for players of all positions to have mid fielder type athletic ability, there is still room for players with good football ability to play a role (I.e. Nev Jetta).  Whist all teams strive to fill their lists with A grade midfields, that is not to say that every player on their list is an A grader.  The good teams also value solid, disiplined no frills players who can use their abilities to 'play a role' for the team.  That all said, I think we have several talented young guys that should hopefully develop into A graders.

[praha 11,240]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

Not saying we should 'praha' but he's probably the only fringe mid with some value. The comment was made to show that we don't really have any "trade bait"...

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like you thought we should. Just that I hope we don't. Not sure that whatever value he has that we'd get something in return that would fill a need. I agree we've made the right decisions the last few years and I think the right decision would be to keep ANB.

Edited June 3, 2016 by praha

[Moonshadow 17,676]

7 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

Kennedy has shown a bit.

 

7 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I think both of these can be very solid B+ players, they are not going to be superstars but will be important cogs. The Last 2 are role players at best, they'll pop in and out as required. The rest might as well be gone.

As I said, arguably.

[Adam The God 30,216]

7 hours ago, P-man said:

Newton and Michie are 24. ANB is 20. 

He's been given two attempts this year to make an impact. He was pretty good in one of them.

I find it a bit crazy that he is being spoken about as another Newton.

But I take your overall point that the midfield depth gets overstated.

Yeah, I'm not sure if ANB will make it, but he's certainly got time on his side, unlike Newton and Michie who are done now.

[titan_uranus 24,991]

A lot of the players being named are, IMO, more half-forwards or half-backs than true midfielders: ANB, Harmes, Newton, Kent, Michie, M Jones, Grimes, Kennedy.

None of them, to me, scream "midfielder" like Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney and Tyson (for example) do.

[Adam The God 30,216]

16 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

A lot of the players being named are, IMO, more half-forwards or half-backs than true midfielders: ANB, Harmes, Newton, Kent, Michie, M Jones, Grimes, Kennedy.

None of them, to me, scream "midfielder" like Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney and Tyson (for example) do.

Brayshaw doesn't scream midfielder to me. I love him, but he's more of a half back that can pinch hit in the midfield or a winger.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

40 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

A lot of the players being named are, IMO, more half-forwards or half-backs than true midfielders: ANB, Harmes, Newton, Kent, Michie, M Jones, Grimes, Kennedy.

None of them, to me, scream "midfielder" like Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney and Tyson (for example) do.

I'm going to be honest and say that all of those non-true midfielders are not midfielders by and large because they are average AFL footballers and would struggle to cement a spot on any current top 8 side, certainly in their midfield. Most are either discards from other teams or have been rejected in trades by other teams

[monoccular 17,418]

10 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

No.

 

10 hours ago, FireOath said:

Thank you for your extensive and thorough reply.

What ore do you expect him to say?  No, sir?

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,815]

57 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

Yeah, I'm not sure if ANB will make it, but he's certainly got time on his side, unlike Newton and Michie who are done now.

Michie: yes - done.  Doesn't do anything for me defensively or offensively.  Probably a waste of a rookie list spot, although may do something for team morale to give a guy willing to put in effort a go.  Good VFL player but like doggie boy, can't see him making it.

Newton:  could still come good/prove worth.  Finds the ball in dangerous spots and generally makes the most of his opertunities - kicks goals!! (Reliably under pressure).  If we can keep him for nothing (which you'd think we could given he's in his second club he can't get a regular gig for), then worth persevering with.