Salem was our most damaging driver out of defence early last year, and set up all our best forward movements.
When he did his hammy, we fell apart.

He hasn't had the same impact this year, but he is solid as a rock. 
I love seeing his name in the side each week.

Poise.

I still feel more comfortable when the ball is in Salem's hands than the majority of the players in our side. 

With the odd exception, Salem played very well. He does a lot of little things that add up. He was tough at the ball and has football smarts.

Salem still needs to learn that 4 metre kicks are useless... he can pinpoint it to 40-50 metres. He needs 18 kicks and 6 handballs as his minimum stats. 

The other players need to get it to him where he is available.

26 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Salem still needs to learn that 4 metre kicks are useless... he can pinpoint it to 40-50 metres. He needs 18 kicks and 6 handballs as his minimum stats. 

The other players need to get it to him where he is available.

24 touches, with 3:1 kicks to handballs as a minimum? Not one player in our side has achieved anything close to that even once this year.  The only players to have more than 24 touches in a game are Viney x3, Jones N x2, Vince x2, Oliver and Bugg - and in all cases other than Vince, the ratio of kicks to handballs was either close to square, or heavily favoured handballs.  To really spell it out, these are the players who have had 18 kicks in a game this year: Vince in round 2, and Vince in round 3.  That's it.

It'd be nice if we could check that what we're demanding as a par performance was at least semi-reasonable, especially when applying it to a developing 20 year old playing off half back.  Sheesh.

3 hours ago, Tony Tea said:

Poise.

And class.

He has a fraction of that Pendlebury thing where time stands still until he decides which of the multitude of teammates is in the best position to perfectly deliver the ball to. 

I think most of us assume that Christian has this in him and it will continue to develop with experience 

11 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Got turned and burned by Varcoe on the southern stand wing. Otherwise does very well in one on ones, is composed with the ball and has been an important part in getting balance to the side. Sticks key tackles when required.

I'd love him forward but consider at half forward we have:

Kennedy - going really well
Harmes - great tackle and pressure player doing his job
Kent - up and down but the ups the last 6 quarters have been really good
Brayshaw - just getting back to fitness but is a class player
Petracca - building fitness in the VFL and ready to impact when he gets a chance
Vanders and JKH - injured, both shown promise at AFL level

At half back we have:

Vince - gun, but needed to rotate in the midfield
Lumumba - playing pretty well but always a lottery what he'll do with it
Wagner - 2 career games from the rookie list
Hunt - 1 game

 

Did you forget Garlett?

10 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

I don't believe Salem is a defender, I think he is a midfielder, but at present I think he needs to grow into his body more (before we put him in the midfield). So it will be a bit of a nothing year from Salem IMO. Once he does muscle up a bit, and mature, I think he'll be our most effective midfielder. There really aren't many weaknesses with Salem, he instinctively a ball getter, that is why he is struggling a bit down back, because I don't believe it is his natural game.

I think it was a year or two before his Downlow, but if I recall correctly ND had Woey on a HBF, then moved him into the midfield where he just took off. Perhaps a useful 'settling in / development' position in this case. 

21 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Did you forget Garlett?

I think it was a year or two before his Downlow, but if I recall correctly ND had Woey on a HBF, then moved him into the midfield where he just took off. Perhaps a useful 'settling in / development' position in this case. 

Left him out as I think he's more of a specialist small forward than in the half forward mix. But yeah, throw him in, adds even more to point that we need defenders more than forwards at this stage.

19 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Left him out as I think he's more of a specialist small forward than in the half forward mix. But yeah, throw him in, adds even more to point that we need defenders more than forwards at this stage.

And Hunt is much better suited to a wing.

Half-back-ball-user has become the most important position in the game. We should be stoked to have one.

 

I would like him to do much more. He is capable. Creating options when we have the pill. Would like him to explode into contests more rather than take a back seat.

 

Salem's not a defender, but if he doesn't have the fitness to play on ball at present, we don't have many other options.

Good teams will exploit him with the right match up and drag him back towards goal. Then it becomes important for the likes of Dunn and Lumumba to swap opponents and get him out of there.

23 hours ago, P-man said:

On another topic, as Matt Jones' most staunch defender on this site, I'd have hoped you would be a bit more vocal over his recent form. Where's the "I told you so"?

Kudos to you and to him. 

Was never in doubt. ?

14 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Salem still needs to learn that 4 metre kicks are useless... he can pinpoint it to 40-50 metres. He needs 18 kicks and 6 handballs as his minimum stats. 

The other players need to get it to him where he is available.

I agree with the bolded bit. But it's not as easy as it sounds.

He needs to know where to run so that the other defenders can get it to him in space, and the other defenders need to know where he's going to run to so they don't have to search for him. If we can get Salem into space with the ball 15 times a game, he'll be incredibly damaging. And the zone defence strategy should make it easier for Salem to get into space when we have the ball.

It probably just comes over time - a core group of defenders playing together often enough that they know each others' games, and getting the most out of zone defence. In fact, though our defence did very well on Sunday, the more that core group of Dunn, T-Mac, Lumumba, Jetta & Salem play together, plus the continued development of the likes of Wagner & Hunt, the more they'll improve offensively as well as defensively.

Still only 20 years old yet he plays with composure and skill. He'll only get better as the season progresses. He'll certainly be a scary prospect when he develops a tank and is able to run through the midfield more often.

Still young and a long way to go...I worry at times about his football nous, I think it's an area he really needs to develop. Experience and studying the game should fix this.

Should be a player, has most of the requisite skills covered.

3 hours ago, poita said:

Salem's not a defender, but if he doesn't have the fitness to play on ball at present, we don't have many other options.

Good teams will exploit him with the right match up and drag him back towards goal. Then it becomes important for the likes of Dunn and Lumumba to swap opponents and get him out of there.

This. He isn't great defensively and teams have looked to go through his man this year, and done so with success. 

He's a talented player, but he needs to do more imo. He needs to get more involved at contests and tighten up defensively. I'd love for him to be a bit fitter and player through the midfield in the future as that will be his best suited role.

15 hours ago, wretched.sylph said:

And Hunt is much better suited to a wing.

Half-back-ball-user has become the most important position in the game. We should be stoked to have one.

 

Yep I'd agree with that. Although Hunt has the speed to run out of trouble and balance up which could be his way of playing half back. Needs to be reliable on the slow play kicks though. I also think he's more physical and competitive than I've given him credit for and could be a  lock down back pocket in time. I'm hoping we've just scratched the surface of development of Hunt so far. 

16 hours ago, fndee said:

And class.

He has a fraction of that Pendlebury Jack Watts thing where time stands still until he decides which of the multitude of teammates is in the best position to perfectly deliver the ball to. 

I think most of us assume that Christian has this in him and it will continue to develop with experience 

Fixed.

5 hours ago, poita said:

Salem's not a defender, but if he doesn't have the fitness to play on ball at present, we don't have many other options.

Good teams will exploit him with the right match up and drag him back towards goal. Then it becomes important for the likes of Dunn and Lumumba to swap opponents and get him out of there.

Zone defence has pro's & con's. The main "pro" is that it's more likely to lead to a turnover, and when it does, it's usually easier & faster to launch attacks.

The main "con" is that there aren't "match-ups" as such, and it requires the nearest defenders to try to win the ball. Each defender guards a certain amount space, which changes depending on which direction the ball's coming from, and competes against any opponent who's within reach, to try to win the ball & launch an attack. This will inevitably lead to mismatches such as Jetta having to contest a mark against Cloke or Petrie, or Dunn chasing Sidebottom. Or Salem caught out against Varcoe's pace & agility.

It's no longer a matter of beating a particular opponent over the whole game. Salem, for example, may be mismatched against a "one-trick-but-a-good-one" opponent 3 or 4 times in a game, but on the other hand he'll launch 8 or 10 dangerous attacking chains. So the "Salem equation" is that we come out way way ahead overall.

As supporters, we've got to learn to think differently about zone defence, and how to evaluate whether our defence has done well or not. It's much more about positioning & running to space, and winning one-on-one contests, while still important, is no longer the main game. It also needs awareness of where your teammates are, and whether to go for the contest or not, so to get better, it's important to have a settled core of defenders who know how each other play. In the meantime, until this understanding develops, we'll probably see times when too many will fly for a mark and when someone's out of position and an opposing forward will be in miles of space.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason that Wagner & Hunt have been tried so early, in preference to Garland & Grimes who are probably much better one-on-one "old-style" defenders, is that Wagner & Hunt (and perhaps O.Mac & White) have adapted much better to zone defence than Garland & Grimes.

Edited April 20, 20169 yr by Akum

3 hours ago, Akum said:

Zone defence has pro's & con's. The main "pro" is that it's more likely to lead to a turnover, and when it does, it's usually easier & faster to launch attacks.

The main "con" is that there aren't "match-ups" as such, and it requires the nearest defenders to try to win the ball. Each defender guards a certain amount space, which changes depending on which direction the ball's coming from, and competes against any opponent who's within reach, to try to win the ball & launch an attack. This will inevitably lead to mismatches such as Jetta having to contest a mark against Cloke or Petrie, or Dunn chasing Sidebottom. Or Salem caught out against Varcoe's pace & agility.

It's no longer a matter of beating a particular opponent over the whole game. Salem, for example, may be mismatched against a "one-trick-but-a-good-one" opponent 3 or 4 times in a game, but on the other hand he'll launch 8 or 10 dangerous attacking chains. So the "Salem equation" is that we come out way way ahead overall.

As supporters, we've got to learn to think differently about zone defence, and how to evaluate whether our defence has done well or not. It's much more about positioning & running to space, and winning one-on-one contests, while still important, is no longer the main game. It also needs awareness of where your teammates are, and whether to go for the contest or not, so to get better, it's important to have a settled core of defenders who know how each other play. In the meantime, until this understanding develops, we'll probably see times when too many will fly for a mark and when someone's out of position and an opposing forward will be in miles of space.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason that Wagner & Hunt have been tried so early, in preference to Garland & Grimes who are probably much better one-on-one "old-style" defenders, is that Wagner & Hunt (and perhaps O.Mac & White) have adapted much better to zone defence than Garland & Grimes.

Thanks Akum for that outline of zone defence, a concept that I have trouble coming to grips with.

The overall equation concept is enlightening: rather than expecting to win every contest (hoping to is good: expecting to is unrealistic) the balance of good v bad is after all what determines the outcome.

Good post. 

5 hours ago, Akum said:

Zone defence has pro's & con's. The main "pro" is that it's more likely to lead to a turnover, and when it does, it's usually easier & faster to launch attacks.

The main "con" is that there aren't "match-ups" as such, and it requires the nearest defenders to try to win the ball. Each defender guards a certain amount space, which changes depending on which direction the ball's coming from, and competes against any opponent who's within reach, to try to win the ball & launch an attack. This will inevitably lead to mismatches such as Jetta having to contest a mark against Cloke or Petrie, or Dunn chasing Sidebottom. Or Salem caught out against Varcoe's pace & agility.

It's no longer a matter of beating a particular opponent over the whole game. Salem, for example, may be mismatched against a "one-trick-but-a-good-one" opponent 3 or 4 times in a game, but on the other hand he'll launch 8 or 10 dangerous attacking chains. So the "Salem equation" is that we come out way way ahead overall.

As supporters, we've got to learn to think differently about zone defence, and how to evaluate whether our defence has done well or not. It's much more about positioning & running to space, and winning one-on-one contests, while still important, is no longer the main game. It also needs awareness of where your teammates are, and whether to go for the contest or not, so to get better, it's important to have a settled core of defenders who know how each other play. In the meantime, until this understanding develops, we'll probably see times when too many will fly for a mark and when someone's out of position and an opposing forward will be in miles of space.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason that Wagner & Hunt have been tried so early, in preference to Garland & Grimes who are probably much better one-on-one "old-style" defenders, is that Wagner & Hunt (and perhaps O.Mac & White) have adapted much better to zone defence than Garland & Grimes.

I'm emailing my old man this post. He is taking time to adjust to our zone defence and as you state, he's not the only Demon supporter.

Edited April 20, 20169 yr by AdamFarr

5 hours ago, Akum said:

As supporters, we've got to learn to think differently about zone defence, and how to evaluate whether our defence has done well or not. It's much more about positioning & running to space, and winning one-on-one contests, while still important, is no longer the main game. It also needs awareness of where your teammates are, and whether to ..............

 

Not sure what you're saying here. There were 288 contested possessions last week . I would say that winning one on ones is more vital than ever.

On 4/19/2016 at 10:38 AM, Peter Griffen said:

Hate putting up a slightly negative topic after such a good win but it's been bothering me for a while, i don't believe Salem is working at half back. 

in his first year playing across half forward we saw an extremely creative and dangerous young playing with great skills and goal sense, now while he has transferred some of those attributes across half back, i just feel he's playing well below what he's capable in an attacking sense and he's not a great defender and opposition teams know it.

I understand the importance of good ball users in defense and how important that is to our ball movement and game plan but i really think it's time to get Christian up the ground a bit more and let Wagner and go take up the mantle, Jesse loves when Jack watts delivers the ball to him, imagine having both Watts and Salem doing that on a regular basis.

thoughts?

FFS!  Thats it.  I'm off Dland for awhile. Ya bringing me down unneccassarily Griff.  Catch ya.

On 4/20/2016 at 8:50 PM, pinkshark said:

FFS!  Thats it.  I'm off Dland for awhile. Ya bringing me down unneccassarily Griff.  Catch ya.

Just thinking if we have Wagner coming through maybe Salem would be more damaging further up the ground, i suspect in time he will become a midfielder anyway but if we can cover his loss down back i think he'd really add something further up the ground