POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 22

[spirit of norm smith 13,061]

Inside 50s ...40

Goals 8 (20% return)

Marks inside 50...4

Tackles 88.

Goals gifted from MFC turnovers 6.

These sum up our club.

positives. Hardworking. Contested footy.

negatives. Poor skills. Poor decision making.

Oscar Mc shocking kick, Jonesy 1st quarter howler & Gartletts handball were SHOCKING suburban standard disposal.

[Binmans PA 26,264]

What % of time would you say we are 'on'? 10? 15?

25%ish. Young side. Next year I hope we're pushing 50%. We'll win a lot more often if that's the case. I expect 10-12 wins next season. If we add Prestia and a few others, plus natural improvement from our young crop, we'll get there.

[Pennant St Dee 11,336]

Fremantle kicked the first 5 goals of the game and then the first 5 goals of the 2nd quarter. In that period of time we managed 2 points (1 was rushed) That is a lot longer than 10 minutes PSD

I am just being brutally honest

I am tired of being fed the crap year after year.

Oh jesus I didn't notice that I sat there for 3 hours and that all happened whilst I was reading my book.

You embarrass yourself every time you talk about football, one day you will realise we are tired of your crap, it serves no purpose, you go on about the last 50 years and that is precisely what Roos was referring to last week but you are to dumb to realise that, his comment in his post match press conferences of late about not caring about what caused the issues of the past are directed at you and others like you.

He has been here for 2 years and if you were expecting us to jump up into the 8 based on the squad we had(whilst it it wouldn't surprise me) it again shows how you put unrealistic timeframes on our side getting to where we need to be.

I watched yesterday WYL I was there the 10 minutes we went asleep was at the start of the second quarter,it had nothing to do with the first five goals

Re read my post and try and read it with a view on football what I said about the differences in the two sides with regard to experience across the board, if you understand footy and actually watch the game you will see exactly what I mean and try this watch it with the sound off and concentrate on the play and movement away from the ball you will see exactly where the ten minutes is

[Pennant St Dee 11,336]

PSD you remind me of me about 8 weeks ago.. just trying desperately to find anything that can add some some of currency to the charade that is 'we are improving'

As a matter of fact I have been singing that tune for about 9 years until they lost me in the latter half of this year

What has happened since the great win down at Geelong is nothing short of deplorable and simply cannot be excused

and you can talk for a million years but there is no set of circumstances where I will ever accepot being down ten goals to none, that is wooden spoon stuff

When did I say you had to accept it.

We haven't been improving for 9 years nobody thinks that, well they shouldn't

In 2010 I thought we were improving and we were, some very bad decisions by those who shouldn't have been making them had massive implications on our club from the end of 2010 & through 2011.

2012 & 2013 we all know about and that set this club back so far it isn't remotely funny

I am not trying to convince myself of anything I am realistic and this is where we are at. We are into our second season of our rebuild, forget about the previous ones they were not done correctly and this is what you end up with. We are now at where we were around 2011, what we wont do under this FD or under PJ is make the mistakes of the previous board and FD. The decision on players in the past 2 off seasons have shown me that with the players we have targetted and who we have brought in.

So when I say we have improved I base that on the team we were under Neeld and the team Roos inherited in 2014, I do not base that on the side of 2007. I also look at the season as a whole when talking about improvement

We now have a leading ruckman with Gawn less than 40 games into a career who is showing rapid growth and ability to mix it with the best

• Hogan still very raw but our first forward to kick 40 goals in a season since what 2010/11, and he has had very little support against the leagues best tall defenders. We have him and he is one of these genuine stars who are game changers
• Garlett another forward closing in on 40 goals, I think our entire forward line of 2012-13 struggled to do that
• Brayshaw just a gun and a leader 20 games into a career and showing signs of tiring as many other 1st year players that age have year after year
• Viney leadership and developing the run with part of his game along with his hardness at the ball
• Nate Jones has had a down year and our midfield is performing better than it has in the last 3 years, youngsters must be stepping up
• TMac has petered out as the season went on but there was plenty to like about his form in the first part of the year
• Salem looked good early in the season and showed yesterday despite being horribly underdone the class and hardness he possess
• Vince up until the last 3 weeks probably one of the best run with mids in the AFL had a greta season
• Jetta - out the door under the previous coaching regime now look at him, ultra consistent over the last two seasons
• ANB - has shown enough IMO to suggest he will be a long term player in our side
• Vanders - one of the finds of the season gives us great hardness around the clearances and how we have missed him since he went down with injury
• Kent - I have been a critic of him not getting the best out of himself but until he went down with injury was showing great form and pace to really worry opposition sides

Can't say I have seen a season's end in the last few years with as much as that to look back on

[Sir Why You Little 34,615]

Oh jesus I didn't notice that I sat there for 3 hours and that all happened whilst I was reading my book.

You embarrass yourself every time you talk about football, one day you will realise we are tired of your crap, it serves no purpose, you go on about the last 50 years and that is precisely what Roos was referring to last week but you are to dumb to realise that, his comment in his post match press conferences of late about not caring about what caused the issues of the past are directed at you and others like you.

He has been here for 2 years and if you were expecting us to jump up into the 8 based on the squad we had(whilst it it wouldn't surprise me) it again shows how you put unrealistic timeframes on our side getting to where we need to be.

I watched yesterday WYL I was there the 10 minutes we went asleep was at the start of the second quarter,it had nothing to do with the first five goals

Re read my post and try and read it with a view on football what I said about the differences in the two sides with regard to experience across the board, if you understand footy and actually watch the game you will see exactly what I mean and try this watch it with the sound off and concentrate on the play and movement away from the ball you will see exactly where the ten minutes is

Ok PSD if you think everything is tracking well after the past decade, that is your decision. If you can find solace in defending a 10 goal to zip game go ahead.

But let me tell you one thing...You are treading water and nothing else and when you run out of energy you will drown

Who said anything about making the 8 this year? Not me. But i sure didn't expect the 4th Division Ammo's standard either

PJ was predicting finals next year..Do you reckon it's all rosy in his office right now??

We only get the Club Statements...The Fluff You know that as well as i do

I am amazed that so many supporters just take the hit every week again & again

it's actually sad.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Sir Why You Little

[Pennant St Dee 11,336]

Ok PSD if you think everything is tracking well after the past decade, that is your decision. If you can find solace in defending a 10 goal to zip game go ahead.

But let me tell you one thing...You are treading water and nothing else and when you run out of energy you will drown

Who said anything about making the 8 this year? Not me. But i sure didn't expect the 4th Division Ammo's standard either

PJ was predicting finals next year..Do you reckon it's all rosy in his office right now??

We only get the Club Statements...The Fluff You know that as well as i do

I am amazed that so many supporters just take the hit every week again & again

it's actually sad.

Listen I am going to bed early start tomorrow but again reread what I said forget about the past decade

The sooner you realise we are nearly 2 years in, you will be in a better place mentally

4th grade amos get over yourself, lets not exagerate it only makes your argument worse.

I am done talking football with you its a pointless exercise

[Sir Why You Little 34,615]

Listen I am going to bed early start tomorrow but again reread what I said forget about the past decade

The sooner you realise we are nearly 2 years in, you will be in a better place mentally

4th grade amos get over yourself, lets not exagerate it only makes your argument worse.

I am done talking football with you its a pointless exercise

Sleep well

[rjay 23,930]

Ok PSD if you think everything is tracking well after the past decade, that is your decision. If you can find solace in defending a 10 goal to zip game go ahead.

But let me tell you one thing...You are treading water and nothing else and when you run out of energy you will drown

Who said anything about making the 8 this year? Not me. But i sure didn't expect the 4th Division Ammo's standard either

PJ was predicting finals next year..Do you reckon it's all rosy in his office right now??

We only get the Club Statements...The Fluff You know that as well as i do

I am amazed that so many supporters just take the hit every week again & again

it's actually sad.

I think we will push for finals next season....

The competition is getting tighter from 5th down to around 12th...there is light years to the top few when the whips get cracking though as we will see again in this years finals.

I know most want to wallow but we have improved significantly this year. The list is much better than last year which was better than the year before it. I expect it to improve again and hope that a better run with injury will see on ground improvement.

We had the worst list in the AFL, it's improving. Still a long way off but at least it's heading in the right direction.

[Sir Why You Little 34,615]

I think we will push for finals next season....

The competition is getting tighter from 5th down to around 12th...there is light years to the top few when the whips get cracking though as we will see again in this years finals.

I know most want to wallow but we have improved significantly this year. The list is much better than last year which was better than the year before it. I expect it to improve again and hope that a better run with injury will see on ground improvement.

We had the worst list in the AFL, it's improving. Still a long way off but at least it's heading in the right direction.

Hard to predict anything right now rjay. We need to win 2 in a row before anything can be stated with confidence. We should be further ahead but it is obvious certain aspects have stalled. My bet it is above the shoulders

I don't think the players believe they can win. You take that attitude to the first bounce and the oponent will smell blood.

We all know we need better mids particularly with Jonesy having a poor year

But to push to positions 7-11 means 11-13 wins next year

Massive draft victories will be needed to get to there

Hope you are right. Finals in September are mighty special. It has been too long between drinks

[Binmans PA 26,264]

Hard to predict anything right now rjay. We need to win 2 in a row before anything can be stated with confidence. We should be further ahead but it is obvious certain aspects have stalled. My bet it is above the shoulders

I don't think the players believe they can win. You take that attitude to the first bounce and the oponent will smell blood.

We all know we need better mids particularly with Jonesy having a poor year

But to push to positions 7-11 means 11-13 wins next year

Massive draft victories will be needed to get to there

Hope you are right. Finals in September are mighty special. It has been too long between drinks

Come on, mate. Just winning two in a row won't make it any easier to call whether we'll make finals or not. That's a good little hurdle to overcome in the first half of next year though. I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect 10-12 wins next year and that still won't be enough for some people. We're showing steady growth each year.

I'd prefer Roosy to coach for a 4th year and have Goody step in the 5th year, but unfortunately that won't happen. We'd all obviously love to play finals next year, but I think it'll be touch and go. We should be thereabouts though. By the time Goody steps into the role, we should certainly be playing finals. Given where we're coming from, in three years, that'll be close to incredible.

As for the massive draft victories, every off season Roosy has been with us has yielded victories. Tyson, Salem and Vince in his first year and VNB, Brayshaw, ANB and Petracca last year. I'll back him in again this year. We certainly need an A grader in the door this off season and then a couple of role players to fill the holes in our best 22, of which I count 4-5.

Edited August 31, 2015 by AdamFarr

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,941]

I think we will push for finals next season....

The competition is getting tighter from 5th down to around 12th...there is light years to the top few when the whips get cracking though as we will see again in this years finals.

I know most want to wallow but we have improved significantly this year. The list is much better than last year which was better than the year before it. I expect it to improve again and hope that a better run with injury will see on ground improvement.

We had the worst list in the AFL, it's improving. Still a long way off but at least it's heading in the right direction.

Think back two weeks....our first qtr against Carlton. We are in a big hole. A lot would have to go right during trade week.

[praha 10,293]

Finals is a KPI, but it isn't assured. 7 wins was a KPI this year but we probably won't reach it. We should all be prepared for a season where we could finish with anywhere between 7 and 12 wins next year. By 2017 finals won't just be a KPI, it'll be an expectation, a necessity. Finals as a goal for 2016 was set merely as a means to have a benchmark to reach for. I think we are still a fair bit off the mark.

Look at Hawthorn in 2006. After a few years down the bottom, they ended the season really strong and went into 2007 set for finals. 2016 should be our year to lead into finals. Bulldogs won 7 games last year. Port won 5 (?) before pushing for finals.

I think 2015 has been a fantastic year insofar as blooding new talent:

- Hogan

- Brayshaw

- Stretch

- Harmes

- ANB

- VB

And then the likes of Kent, Frost and Salem getting another season and pre-season under their belt. Then Viney, McDonald. Our problem still lies in the quality in the 23-30 range. Dunn, Garland, Jones, Watts just don't cut it as high quality players unfortunately, and we need to draft more mature bodies and minds of the VB, Vince type.

I think we're closer than a lot think but at the same time, don't underestimate how tight and tough the 5th to 12th range on the ladder is. Really, anyone in that range has a finals-caliber team. It takes 2 or 3 bad games in a season to set you apart from a top 8 spot if you're in that range.

Edited August 31, 2015 by praha

[monoccular 16,197]

Freo just went in to cruise control after they got up by an easy 10 goals.

Disappointing again. Roos must really know how to rev up the player's, the way they came out breathing fire today. FMD.

3 word summary: Roos - Predictable and boring

I am sure he can, but is struggling to overcome 50,000 incoming negative thoughts from members and supporters.

100% certain that had we all pushed forward positive vibes it would have been us who kicked the first 10 goals.

PS: don't send in the psycho squad: I will submit voluntarily when I renew my membership once again after swearing that I wouldn't.

Gives us some hope against GWS I would have thought.

Really? Will anyone be there to notice?

[beelzebub 22,230]

Hard to predict anything right now rjay. We need to win 2 in a row before anything can be stated with confidence. We should be further ahead but it is obvious certain aspects have stalled. My bet it is above the shoulders

I don't think the players believe they can win. You take that attitude to the first bounce and the oponent will smell blood.

We all know we need better mids particularly with Jonesy having a poor year

But to push to positions 7-11 means 11-13 wins next year

Massive draft victories will be needed to get to there

Hope you are right. Finals in September are mighty special. It has been too long between drinks

I wonder how much of this also stems from a FD who's idea of aspirations is a meagre increase of but a handful ( and a small one ) of wins over last season.

When you set the bar that low its only a matter of time before you trip over it..And we did.

The subliminal message to players is...your krap !! and its got through !

[pitmaster 3,064]

Yes, but I think anyone who has truly been watching this season knows we have improved and that our list now is catching up with the modern game and with a few more tweaks (primarily an infusion of midfield pace, ideally another key tall, a back-up left-foot defender for Salem so that we can play down our left wing on occasions), we should be able to make significant ground on what is a transition period at the top - Hawthorn, Freo, Sydney, North and Geelong all are very old sides - and barring them manipulating the draft, we will make gains on them.

Sure you could argue we were in this position six years ago under Bailey when it looked like we had a good crop of youngsters to back up the older guys, but the young guys we had then (Morton, Blease, Strauss, Gysberts, Scully, Wonaemirri and Bennell) simply were not modern-day players and it has shown when they have tried to switch to other clubs.

Yes we still have a few on our list that don't possess the requisite requirements (disposals skills/big bodied tackling units or pace), but we now have a core group of youngsters who simply aren't going to lose ground massively and Roosy's greatest testament is that he has ensured we have an environment where guys don't do a Scully.

Bennell should not be included in that group. He is starting 22 with the second placed team right now. My reaction when he did his leg was career over because he had not shown that much with us but he has been a much better player with the Eagles.

[Chris 2,892]

you may have been typing over the last post

FOUR MEASLY POINTS

You could well argue also that despite having 2 more wins, we were more competitive last year because we lost 5 games by 20 points or less last year, and this year we have only lost 2 close ones, the others were all comfortable losses (15 of them including 6 by 9 goals plus)

So would you prefer we go back to last year and only defend, it gives us close margins and that seems to be what you want. I would prefer we try and mix in the offence, as it is bigger risk it will come with bigger margins, but it is the only way to prosper in the future.

[pinkshark 935]

Dear oh dear oh dear. Funny stuff on this thread. Some genuine (obviously) pain, negativity and positivity. I'm in the positive camp, although I did feel like spewing my guts up in this Freo game. I'm not sure what some people on this thread expected this year. Finals? Idiots. 10-11 wins? Idiots. No need to panic idiots. Get a life. Front up next year and we'll roll the dice again. Does anyone really believe we will win less games next year. Of course not.

For me it is simple. We carry to many players that would not get a game at another AFL club. But most importantly we have little intelligence and footspeed. And make no mistake, those not so intelligent and slower players will be gone. No doubt about that. You reckon us idiots on here see what the coaches do not? Give me a break. Injuries have very much hurt us. Our mature leaders, if you like, are too few in number and cannot carry the load throughout the length of an AFL season and our young guns are just that. Young.

But jumping up and down and blaming Roos is ridiculous. We needed some respect if you all remember. We were a laughing stock. When no one else wanted to touch us Roosy signed up (for big bucks yes, but so what? His reputation demanded that). Im sure its tougher than he thought, but I'd much rather have him, goodwin, mccartney et al to fix this up as opposed to a little clarkson minion like every other club and a posse of six assistant coaches with a combined age of 16. #@$% that!

In short, we're still no good. But we are much, much better.

[Chris 2,892]

Ok PSD if you think everything is tracking well after the past decade, that is your decision. If you can find solace in defending a 10 goal to zip game go ahead.

But let me tell you one thing...You are treading water and nothing else and when you run out of energy you will drown

Not PSd's point, as he said, and I agree, things are tracking well after 2012-13. That is the benchmark from which this rebuild should be judged, the previous issues have nothing to do with the current coaches or administration, and only have something to do will about half of the players, most of whom are in the VFL.

Last week the effort was there but the execution clearly wasn't for the first quarter and a half, the previous few weeks we have not had the effort, that is not acceptable and no one here says it is. But we also will not throw out the baby with the bathwater over a bad month of footy, to do so would only put us back another decade, if not kill the club.

[beelzebub 22,230]

We were a laughing stock ? Yep

We aren't now ? We're pretty embarrassing as a footy team. Thats the reality.

Roos keeps on about players not listening /doing. Take aside my thoughts that hes just not one of the better game day strategists going around (but undoubtedly a very good holistic mentor ) then it surely goes to the notion there are still far too many players who dont/cant buy into the new ways.

Signal more overhauling.. (wholesale) of list.

There is very very little about our performance this season thats acceptable. Inability to invariably play 4 qtrs of footy on any given day. Incapable of stringing two wins.

There were games to be won but we just seemed not bothered. We continually give massive starts to the opposition before apparently going into 'drive'.

If you applued the idea that some games last season were almost wins...then our success this year isnt that much different. But weve got more games into legs...another preseason and yet I can still hear 'ive got you babe' on the alarm clock.

some see much commentary as negative. Id suggest its just reality.

This isnt really a game of minute measures. Its not like say athletics whete improvement of 1/10 of a sec can mean medal/no medal. Its not about PBs even. Its just two teams on any given day. One wins..one loses (draws aside)

Its about wins. So much other referencibg this or that is for losers trying to justify relevancy.

The Hawthorns and Freos just win. Thats their barometer. And the real one is flags.

64 is a hell of a long time ago.

Not looking like adding to it

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

But we also will not throw out the baby with the bathwater over a bad month of footy

Sorry Chris but you are kidding yourself

Eagles TIO Stadium Loss 60-114 54

Bombers MCG Loss 60-69 9

Lions MCG Win 60-36 24

Saints MCG Loss 46-83 37

Magpies MCG Win 91-54 37

Kangaroos MCG Loss 92-127 35

Bulldogs Etihad Stadium Loss 55-153 98

Blues MCG Loss 55-78 23

Dockers Domain Stadium Loss 54-108 54

The win over the Pies was pretty good. The win over the Lions was one of the worst wins you will ever see. The other seven performances were all terrible. That's 9 weeks since the win at Geelong and we have shown almost nothing. It's far worse than a 'bad month'.

[Chris 2,892]

Sorry Chris but you are kidding yourself

Eagles TIO Stadium Loss 60-114 54

Bombers MCG Loss 60-69 9

Lions MCG Win 60-36 24

Saints MCG Loss 46-83 37

Magpies MCG Win 91-54 37

Kangaroos MCG Loss 92-127 35

Bulldogs Etihad Stadium Loss 55-153 98

Blues MCG Loss 55-78 23

Dockers Domain Stadium Loss 54-108 54

The win over the Pies was pretty good. The win over the Lions was one of the worst wins you will ever see. The other seven performances were all terrible. That's 9 weeks since the win at Geelong and we have shown almost nothing. It's far worse than a 'bad month'.

Eagles I thought we would lose, but from memory we were OK that game, but nothing more than OK.

Bombers was deplorable but hit a side with a point to prove, still no excuse.

Lions, a win is a win is a win.

Saints, was frustrating but we were out classed by a team in form

Pies, was a good win.

Roos, Dogs, and Blues, not acceptable levels of performance and a disgrace

Freo, Effort was there but skills weren't.

We are inconsistent, we have had a shocking month, and a bad patch before that.

As BB mentions, Roos is a great holistic manager of a club and team, that is what was needed and what we still need. I agree his game plan could be better but we are coming from so far back all I expect him to do is get us back within the ball park game plan wise, which I think he has done, and let Goodwin add the polish, which he will be doing more and more over the next 12 months.

Roos is there to coach the club and set things up, he was never employed to do any more than that and he is doing that well.

If we are at this same point next year then I will be worried, far far too early to be overly concerned now.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Chris

[Sir Why You Little 34,615]

Not PSd's point, as he said, and I agree, things are tracking well after 2012-13. That is the benchmark from which this rebuild should be judged, the previous issues have nothing to do with the current coaches or administration, and only have something to do will about half of the players, most of whom are in the VFL.

Last week the effort was there but the execution clearly wasn't for the first quarter and a half, the previous few weeks we have not had the effort, that is not acceptable and no one here says it is. But we also will not throw out the baby with the bathwater over a bad month of footy, to do so would only put us back another decade, if not kill the club.

Chris i agree The Club is tracking in the right direction but the playing group has stalled badly.

After the Geelong victory down there surely the belief systems within the players should have kicked in. But when a whole team cannot fire a single shot in the first quarter for multiple weeks on end then questions have to be asked.

The back end of 2015 has been a downgrade from last year in my view, why? Because lessons are not learnt regardless of what is taught at training.

Roos has a major job next year to hand over his team to a young untried coach.

[Chris 2,892]

Chris i agree The Club is tracking in the right direction but the playing group has stalled badly.

After the Geelong victory down there surely the belief systems within the players should have kicked in. But when a whole team cannot fire a single shot in the first quarter for multiple weeks on end then questions have to be asked.

The back end of 2015 has been a downgrade from last year in my view, why? Because lessons are not learnt regardless of what is taught at training.

Roos has a major job next year to hand over his team to a young untried coach.

Stalled is a good word for it, it has not crashed as so many on here seem to think, it is recoverable, all that is needed is for someone at the club to find the key and start it up again. That may be the coaches or the players but the key needs to be found.

I agree with the Geelong win, I saw that as a potentially incredibly significant game int eh clubs history, sadly it wasn't to be.

[Sir Why You Little 34,615]

Stalled is a good word for it, it has not crashed as so many on here seem to think, it is recoverable, all that is needed is for someone at the club to find the key and start it up again. That may be the coaches or the players but the key needs to be found.

I agree with the Geelong win, I saw that as a potentially incredibly significant game int eh clubs history, sadly it wasn't to be.

Personally i just do not see the players holding up there end of the bargain. And that is my concern.

AFL is a brutal game and when a player signs on he has consented to that.

As Beezle says above what i am saying is not negative. It is harsh reality.

Look at the crows this year. Under immense grief and loss they have stood up tall to a man and given themselves a chance in September.

I hope they win at least one final.

[pitmaster 3,064]

Some of what you say WYL is right but banging on about the 70s, 80s, 90s etc means nothing. No-one from those times remains at the club. The 'Dogs are on fire at the moment but they have been rotten for far longer. It does end.

You've forgotten but in terms of finals series we were more regular than any Victorian side for periods under Northey and Daniher - we just didn't clinch the big one. None of that counts now except for giving you fodder for your 50 years rants.