Personally i just do not see the players holding up there end of the bargain. And that is my concern.

AFL is a brutal game and when a player signs on he has consented to that.

As Beezle says above what i am saying is not negative. It is harsh reality.

Look at the crows this year. Under immense grief and loss they have stood up tall to a man and given themselves a chance in September.

I hope they win at least one final.

I don't disagree but I am not sure the players know how to win, especially the older ones. What we need is the likes of Cross, Vince, and Jones to drive the young good ones to want more, to drive change, to inspire the team around them. It shouldn't be up to the young players but I think the few oldies we have must support the young ones to drive this, otherwise they will get tarnished with the player version of MFCSS.

The good young players are there, they are going the right direction and they look hungry, we must ensure we preserve that and then things will improve quickly, if we fail at that then we are stuffed. That is where I think Roos is the right man for the job.

I don't disagree but I am not sure the players know how to win, especially the older ones. What we need is the likes of Cross, Vince, and Jones to drive the young good ones to want more, to drive change, to inspire the team around them. It shouldn't be up to the young players but I think the few oldies we have must support the young ones to drive this, otherwise they will get tarnished with the player version of MFCSS.

The good young players are there, they are going the right direction and they look hungry, we must ensure we preserve that and then things will improve quickly, if we fail at that then we are stuffed. That is where I think Roos is the right man for the job.

But can Jones drive these guys forward? When he to has had losing as a norm for so long...I am sure he wants to but i have my doubts right now that he really knows how to do it as he himself doesn't know winning.

It is not his fault at all, but we must take it on board.

It is why i want the next Captain to come from outside...Not carrying MFC baggage at all

The Previous regime did that much damage.

But can Jones drive these guys forward? When he to has had losing as a norm for so long...I am sure he wants to but i have my doubts right now that he really knows how to do it as he himself doesn't know winning.

It is not his fault at all, but we must take it on board.

It is why i want the next Captain to come from outside...Not carrying MFC baggage at all

The Previous regime did that much damage.

The point I was trying to make was I want Jones and co to drive the young ones to want more, I agree that Jones may not know how to win but I want him to drive the young ones to expect and want nothing less, he doesn't have to know how to win to do this, he only needs to know how to drive the young ones, which I have no idea if he does or not.

You are right about the previous administration and that is why I think improvement etc must be judged since they left, there is no point looking earlier as the damage was done up to 2013, that is our starting point.

Some of what you say WYL is right but banging on about the 70s, 80s, 90s etc means nothing. No-one from those times remains at the club. The 'Dogs are on fire at the moment but they have been rotten for far longer. It does end.

You've forgotten but in terms of finals series we were more regular than any Victorian side for periods under Northey and Daniher - we just didn't clinch the big one. None of that counts now except for giving you fodder for your 50 years rants.

Pit the only thing i will say to that is when we have made finals and done well we have not backed it up with a better effort the following year

John Northey era got mighty close. The last 50 years are part of the clubs journey..and we are yet to rise out of them.

The point I was trying to make was I want Jones and co to drive the young ones to want more, I agree that Jones may not know how to win but I want him to drive the young ones to expect and want nothing less, he doesn't have to know how to win to do this, he only needs to know how to drive the young ones, which I have no idea if he does or not.

You are right about the previous administration and that is why I think improvement etc must be judged since they left, there is no point looking earlier as the damage was done up to 2013, that is our starting point.

I hope you are right..But can Jonesy drive himself to the level needed that he has not even reached...Pre 2013 must still be given some thought because a group of players we still have were put through it...Some may bust through but others won't

I was hoping a lot of the basic baggage would have been sorted by now...But it still exists..you only have to look at the ball use of the team in general, it still reeks of 2008

Basic skills not executed.

But can Jones drive these guys forward? When he to has had losing as a norm for so long...I am sure he wants to but i have my doubts right now that he really knows how to do it as he himself doesn't know winning.

It is not his fault at all, but we must take it on board.

It is why i want the next Captain to come from outside...Not carrying MFC baggage at all

The Previous regime did that much damage.

We've seen this year we have some real ability and dash at times. Can't help but feel that the only way we'll take the next step up is if there's a massive change in the quality of leadership. You may laugh, but I think by and large the guys bring plenty of effort each week, but not belief and it takes a lot more than just the captain to drive this. If anything he should almost sit in his own tier above a (strong) leadership group. I actually think the leadership changes/improvements are far more important than who they recruit in the off season.

Roos keeps on about players not listening /doing. Take aside my thoughts that hes just not one of the better game day strategists going around (but undoubtedly a very good holistic mentor ) then it surely goes to the notion there are still far too many players who dont/cant buy into the new ways.

Signal more overhauling.. (wholesale) of list.

I agree with these two points especially the second one which I have no doubt is and will occur

The first point with regard to game day strategies under Roos I agree with because of his game plan being very much set and the Sydney side new it inside out and how to make minor changes during game day, what we lack are the Kirks, O'Keefes, Mcveighs and Halls who were absolute experienced on field leaders. It has been a big issue with us for some time now

We've seen this year we have some real ability and dash at times. Can't help but feel that the only way we'll take the next step up is if there's a massive change in the quality of leadership. You may laugh, but I think by and large the guys bring plenty of effort each week, but not belief and it takes a lot more than just the captain to drive this. If anything he should almost sit in his own tier above a (strong) leadership group. I actually think the leadership changes/improvements are far more important than who they recruit in the off season.

73 without belief effort can be tossed aside very easily which i think is the root of the problem. Attitude drives that. This club has had an attitude of hope since '65 (someone else will sort it) from all levels not just on the grass.

Roosy talks as if he doesn't want to know all this.

Clean slate. I can understand that. But our problem is that deep seated i think he must confront it over this summer. Otherwise Goodwin will be handed the poison chalice.

The veil of negativity does exist. It has to because anyone younger than me has only known it. I was born in '63 so it is all i know.

But the players are driving the truck & only they can change course. We sit in the back watching.

Can Jonesy change the course or does he need the guidance as well? I suspect the latter.

And i do not blame him at all? How can he stand tall and direct the show when all he has been influenced by is people who accept mediocraty or implement throwing matches to gain a prize?

All this has happened since Jonesy began. It's all he knows thus far

Look at his stats on sunday before he got hurt

73 without belief effort can be tossed aside very easily which i think is the root of the problem. Attitude drives that. This club has had an attitude of hope since '65 (someone else will sort it) from all levels not just on the grass.

Roosy talks as if he doesn't want to know all this.

Clean slate. I can understand that. But our problem is that deep seated i think he must confront it over this summer. Otherwise Goodwin will be handed the poison chalice.

The veil of negativity does exist. It has to because anyone younger than me has only known it. I was born in '63 so it is all i know.

But the players are driving the truck & only they can change course. We sit in the back watching.

Can Jonesy change the course or does he need the guidance as well? I suspect the latter.

And i do not blame him at all? How can he stand tall and direct the show when all he has been influenced by is people who accept mediocraty or implement throwing matches to gain a prize?

All this has happened since Jonesy began. It's all he knows thus far

Look at his stats on sunday before he got hurt

It is absolutely the latter and that is why Roos and Jones both came out and said at the start of the year that what Jones thought was a good captain and what Roos thought were very different things but that they had come together on what a good captain looks like. I think Jones is becoming a good captain but I think he needs more support than he is given. I think his late season form drop (along with Vince) is a symptom of carrying the team all year. As the youngsters come on hopefully he will have to carry less burden and will increase his effectiveness as captain as this occurs.

The worst thing that could happen is the younsters don't come on in a leadership capacity and we are back to ground zero. There are no guarantees but from the look of Viney, Salem, Brayshaw and Hogan (and Harmes is passions and effort are anything to go by) they will take up the mantel, here's hoping.

It is absolutely the latter and that is why Roos and Jones both came out and said at the start of the year that what Jones thought was a good captain and what Roos thought were very different things but that they had come together on what a good captain looks like. I think Jones is becoming a good captain but I think he needs more support than he is given. I think his late season form drop (along with Vince) is a symptom of carrying the team all year. As the youngsters come on hopefully he will have to carry less burden and will increase his effectiveness as captain as this occurs.

The worst thing that could happen is the younsters don't come on in a leadership capacity and we are back to ground zero. There are no guarantees but from the look of Viney, Salem, Brayshaw and Hogan (and Harmes is passions and effort are anything to go by) they will take up the mantel, here's hoping.

i agree with most of that. Jones may know the look of a captain and he maybe working real hard, but he can only imagine what a Captain in a Top Side is feeling. He has been nowhere near it.

It's why the Captaincy of Grimes & Trengove was an absolute disgrace. I knew Neeld and Craig were no use to us when they vitoed that madness.

Imagine the sly comments on the field at those 2 from oponents.

We need a Big Carl type senario. A player that oponents fear and have to plan strategies around

I would be more than happy with Jonesy as VC in that situation...

Jones is a warrior and a diehard demon. He deserves our respect and is pretty much one of 5 or 6 players on our list that can hold his head up high.

Jones is a warrior and a diehard demon. He deserves our respect and is pretty much one of 5 or 6 players on our list that can hold his head up high.

That is not in question Jnr...It is whether he can lead this team where he himself has not come close to being...