I think the players association have a lot to answer for, regardless of the potential use of TB4 in my opinion they have a responsibility to know intimate details of an injection program on the scale of this one.

In my opinion they should have been provided updates, detailed records and been kept very much in the loop so they could keep an eye out for the players

they either, simply did not know about it, in which case they shouldn't now be slamming WADA for persuing the issue futher

or they did know about it, and were given records vindicating the EFC, which clearly did not happen or ASADA would have them

or they were flat out lied to by the EFC, they know that's the case and the AFL have told them to keep their mouths shut so players aren't suspended

For a Professional League they ( AFLPA ) come across as a pretty amatuerish looking outfit. . To me it looks like a bit of a raggety boyz club where a few know-alls have got it and are trying to rort it for whatever's going.

To be honest, after 3 weeks I wasn't expecting it any more. But bam. Woo be interested to hear how Essendon and the afl respond.

handball, handball, handball,

I think the AFLPA need to be looked into over this saga.

I would have thought the players union would be applauding WADA for seeking the truth.

As a player i would want to know what was in 100's of syringes...

The AFLPA are just as bent as those at AFL House....

It makes me furious that the media is happy to bleat out EFC's cries about being "blindsided" and "surprised" by the appeal.

Have no doubts - they knew it was coming.

This is simply posturing from the EFC to make out that they're the innocent little red riding hood, and WADA is the big bad wolf coming to hunt them down.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

Ash if WADA can't prove to CAS on the balance of probability that Essendon (34) took performance enhancing drugs I think you are entitled to feel exonerated.

I like that you will accept the umpires decision either way. I have a feeling most on here and bomberblit for that matter will only accept the decision if it falls inline with their previously held view.

It is the attitude I am taking.

Like you say, many others have made their minds up [both sides of the fence] and will cry foul if the decision doesn't go their way.

If we have done the wrong thing, whether that be proven at CAS, or with future tests etc, I firmly believe justice must occur.

I don't want my club to have cheated, and I'll be horrified if it's proven.

I don't want my club to "get away with cheating" either, that's not how I operate in my life or beliefs.

But in my eyes, it needs to be proven.

What better way than at CAS.

So much is written on Demonland about corrupt anti-doping tribunals, AFL influence and conspiracies etc.

Just because the original appeal didn't give the masses on here what they wanted.

This appeal is no lose for me and my beliefs.

If we have done the wrong thing, find us guilty and give out the punishments, that's the right thing and that's what should happen.

But if we are found innocent, for a second time, I have no issue with holding my head high saying I support the EFC.

It makes me furious that the media is happy to bleat out EFC's cries about being "blindsided" and "surprised" by the appeal.

Have no doubts - they knew it was coming.

This is simply posturing from the EFC to make out that they're the innocent little red riding hood, and WADA is the big bad wolf coming to hunt them down.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

No one with an modicum of intelligence* is. Unfortunately a lot of the population are short-served in this regard *

Unfortunately in today's business and sporting worlds, you can say anything you like because the purpose is to portray any subject or issue in the best possible light for that organization whether it be truthful or not. Media outlets are used as part of the marketing communications strategy often knowingly and willingly. This is why we should view media commentary with suspicion. Its becoming increasingly difficult to discern the truth on anything. This sits alongside the deteriorating standards of accountability, responsibility and ethical behaviour.

However, other than Hird's poor ethical standards, the thing that annoys me most is the attitude that the players are innocent of all wrongdoing. Given the regime in place, how could anyone think that what they were doing was okay? It's beyond belief. In no other case that I can think of would commentators conclude that the players or athletes were hard done by or innocent of improper behaviour.

What is WADA: a handy guide

I think the AFLPA need to be looked into over this saga.

I would have thought the players union would be applauding WADA for seeking the truth.

As a player i would want to know what was in 100's of syringes...

The AFLPA are just as bent as those at AFL House....

AFLPA are a shambles.

It makes me furious that the media is happy to bleat out EFC's cries about being "blindsided" and "surprised" by the appeal.

Have no doubts - they knew it was coming.

This is simply posturing from the EFC to make out that they're the innocent little red riding hood, and WADA is the big bad wolf coming to hunt them down.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

Exactly. The "we didn't see this coming" line is either shamefully poor governance or an outright lie. I reckon we know which.

Sports lawyer/academic on ABC radio just now saying decision to appeal was surprising. But not taking the usual media/EFC line. She said it was surprising because AFL is not an international support and because WADA doesn't often appeal having limited resources. Shows how significant this is.

WADA see this as a test which they need to take to its logical conclusion for a number of reasons:

a. it is in the biggest sport in Australia, which has up until recently had super power status when it comes to governance in sport. Basically they think if major powerful sports can get way with this stuff in Australia, then they can anywhere;

b. in their belief the doping was so extensive, and so long term, that if they can't enforce it here they never will;

c. several of their seminal principles were flagrantly broken: destroying evidence, possibly bribing witnesses; and

d.trying to stop the local affiliate (ASADA) investigation through trivial and unwinnable court cases for the sole purpose of delaying the case, and then trying to use the delay as a means of discrediting their local affiliate.

They are ropable about all four of these points. In my view, just one of them would have been sufficient justification in their eyes to enforce the sports laws.

Exactly. The "we didn't see this coming" line is either shamefully poor governance or an outright lie. I reckon we know which.

im going to go with.....LIE

Listening to Hird. OMG

The players have been found innocent! 2 1/2 years and they are still innocent. We will prove our innocence again! It's a surprise but we are ready. They have been proven innocent and we will prove it again.

FMD

So James, prove what they did take?

It is the attitude I am taking.

Like you say, many others have made their minds up [both sides of the fence] and will cry foul if the decision doesn't go their way.

If we have done the wrong thing, whether that be proven at CAS, or with future tests etc, I firmly believe justice must occur.

I don't want my club to have cheated, and I'll be horrified if it's proven.

I don't want my club to "get away with cheating" either, that's not how I operate in my life or beliefs.

But in my eyes, it needs to be proven.

What better way than at CAS.

So much is written on Demonland about corrupt anti-doping tribunals, AFL influence and conspiracies etc.

Just because the original appeal didn't give the masses on here what they wanted.

This appeal is no lose for me and my beliefs.

If we have done the wrong thing, find us guilty and give out the punishments, that's the right thing and that's what should happen.

But if we are found innocent, for a second time, I have no issue with holding my head high saying I support the EFC.

Ash, do not believe that serpent coach. NO innocence has been found, nor guilt for that matter.

If the world governing body appealed a local decision involving you, do you really think that they would pursue that without believing there was guilt to be found?

It beggars belief that otherwise intelligent people confuse not guilty with innocence.

Was Lance Armstrong innocent all those years or just not guilty yet? That is Essendon.

It is the attitude I am taking.

Like you say, many others have made their minds up [both sides of the fence] and will cry foul if the decision doesn't go their way.

If we have done the wrong thing, whether that be proven at CAS, or with future tests etc, I firmly believe justice must occur.

I don't want my club to have cheated, and I'll be horrified if it's proven.

I don't want my club to "get away with cheating" either, that's not how I operate in my life or beliefs.

But in my eyes, it needs to be proven.

What better way than at CAS.

So much is written on Demonland about corrupt anti-doping tribunals, AFL influence and conspiracies etc.

Just because the original appeal didn't give the masses on here what they wanted.

This appeal is no lose for me and my beliefs.

If we have done the wrong thing, find us guilty and give out the punishments, that's the right thing and that's what should happen.

But if we are found innocent, for a second time, I have no issue with holding my head high saying I support the EFC.

and again...with respect Ash....sometimes a Duck...is just a Duck... and its plain to observers who can recognise..... a Duck

I truly think youre kidding yourself if you dont already realise your club has erred, before waiting on WADA to prove it.

I just want justice...and the ridding of the contemptibles. It beholding towards every decent law /rule abiding athlete/sports-professional that this goes the distance and to it's rightful conclusion.

The EFC has gone out of its way to derail a quick and proper resolution, but you still support the club admin in this ? Persons known to be either part of or closely associated with power coterie at eh club came out all but publicly claiming a win through the disappearing of witnesses. You still support .this club ? Im not having a go ( you'd know the difference ) I'm just trying to understand where youre coming from here.

cheers

Wasn't there a TV interview where dank says he gave them TB4 and when told it was illegal denied it and said thymodulin?

Wouldn't that plus the fact they believed he sourced it, compounded it etc lead to guilty?

Once upon a time i would speed on Springvale Rd. And I mean speed, 160kmh twice a day every day for years. I was never caught.

Am I innocent of speeding or not guilty according to the law?

I know I was guilty but I was never caught.

PS:- It was 100mph when I did it.

For legal reasons let us presume that the above is a hypothetical.

Hird reminds me of Lance Armstrong.

He actually believes his lies are the truth.

It's magnificent to watch.

I would love it if players started suing Hird for cooking up this scheme.

Tour de France like in the scale and size of the doping.

I remember when 'Grand New Flag' was the king of this forum, has to be 'Dees2014' now. Kudos for your long, detailed and accurate posts over the past month.

How much kool aid has Jon Ralph been drinking? There's absolutely no way the public will side with Essendon on this.

Mark Robinson one of the most insanely unprofessional articles of all time after they were found not guilty by the 'independent' (LOL) AFL tribunal. A good time to revisit it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-james-hird-have-right-to-feel-angry-after-being-found-not-guilty-by-anti-doping-tribunal/story-fnp04d70-1227286254704

I for one will be very interested/intrigued to see who amongst the 4th estate come out with reasoned and informed comment. Also , who might change their tune... so many little side-bars to the main event !!

I remember when 'Grand New Flag' was the king of this forum, has to be 'Dees2014' now. Kudos for your long, detailed and accurate posts over the past month.

How much kool aid has Jon Ralph been drinking? There's absolutely no way the public will side with Essendon on this.

Mark Robinson one of the most insanely unprofessional articles of all time after they were found not guilty by the 'independent' (LOL) AFL tribunal. A good time to revisit it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-james-hird-have-right-to-feel-angry-after-being-found-not-guilty-by-anti-doping-tribunal/story-fnp04d70-1227286254704

I wouldnt be so quick to cal lthat aspect. Theres a lot of ignorant folk out there, either by way of poor information or inability to see clearly and comprehend ( much just not limitied to this event either )

I remember when 'Grand New Flag' was the king of this forum, has to be 'Dees2014' now. Kudos for your long, detailed and accurate posts over the past month.

How much kool aid has Jon Ralph been drinking? There's absolutely no way the public will side with Essendon on this.

Mark Robinson one of the most insanely unprofessional articles of all time after they were found not guilty by the 'independent' (LOL) AFL tribunal. A good time to revisit it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-james-hird-have-right-to-feel-angry-after-being-found-not-guilty-by-anti-doping-tribunal/story-fnp04d70-1227286254704

That is hands down the most bias, ridiculous article i have read in a long time,

" some people will argue that insufficient evidence does not mean it didn't happen, this is the argument of the desperate "

no mark, that's just fact, ASADA not being able to prove they did it, does not mean for a second that they didn't,

ASADA lost the battle but Essendon didn't win, hense the appeal.

What is WADA: a handy guide

• WADA’s arch enemy is the World Pro-Doping Authority

Gold

Wasn't there a TV interview where dank says he gave them TB4 and when told it was illegal denied it and said thymodulin?

Wouldn't that plus the fact they believed he sourced it, compounded it etc lead to guilty?

Can't see a tv interview being made admissible.

This frustrates me to no end (not you Ash, the media thing).

We have pages and pages of discussion on why WADA would want to appeal on a fan forum for a club that isn't even involved. How can so many issues and points simply not make it into the media coverage?

It seems to me after reading these threads for 2 years that WADA has EVERY reason to appeal.

The media is compliant and pushing an agenda. The only journos who have done good work on this story are the non-footy investigative journos Baker and Mackenzie at Fairfax.