Post Match Discussion - Round 5

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Has not played a game at this level. History has plenty of high draft picks not living up to expectations. I for one would like to see him lay a few games before hanging the "great hope" tag on him.

Not hanging a "great hope" tag on him at all. My response to another poster was along the same lines as yours here in that we can hope that he "might" bring an X factor but that's all it is at this point given his bad luck and that he's a raw rookie with no history. Certainly wasn't singling him out as any kind of saviour. In fact i was doing the opposite.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Rusty Nails

[beelzebub 23,313]

Disagree that we're coming from alot further back. Dogs rise has come on the back of players who are in their 2nd/3rd seasons in Macrea, Stringer, Bont, Lin Jong and a bunch of no-name defenders (excluding Murphy). The difference is that the Dogs have promising depth in the VFL, whilst we're stuck with players who have shown that they can't impact at AFL level. Our delistings at year end won't be a difficult task.

its a good point.

We seem to still have qyuite the collection of half way decent VFL footy players on our list. By this i mean they wont particularly worry too many for senior spots whilst playing ok in the magoos. That step up is a step too far/hard. The Doggies have better depth and hence pressure as a result.

MFC still need to churn a dozen or so at eos and many a dlander might wince or moan when some names are erased from the list.

As long as the flavour of our list is still tainted with NQRs as opposed developing and/or raw talent we'll be going nowhere fast.

[rjay 24,853]

its a good point.

We seem to still have qyuite the collection of half way decent VFL footy players on our list. By this i mean they wont particularly worry too many for senior spots whilst playing ok in the magoos. That step up is a step too far/hard. The Doggies have better depth and hence pressure as a result.

MFC still need to churn a dozen or so at eos and many a dlander might wince or moan when some names are erased from the list.

As long as the flavour of our list is still tainted with NQRs as opposed developing and/or raw talent we'll be going nowhere fast.

Pretty sure that's the play 'bb'.

[Ted Lasso 19,284]

Disagree that we're coming from alot further back. Dogs rise has come on the back of players who are in their 2nd/3rd seasons in Macrea, Stringer, Bont, Lin Jong and a bunch of no-name defenders (excluding Murphy). The difference is that the Dogs have promising depth in the VFL, whilst we're stuck with players who have shown that they can't impact at AFL level. Our delistings at year end won't be a difficult task.

2013 - 2 wins 56%

2014 - 4 wins 82%

we are coming from the very bottom of the barrel, the doggies were about where we are now, so that's in perspective a decent head start on where we were when Roos took over

[mo64 5,853]

2013 - 2 wins 56%

2014 - 4 wins 82%

we are coming from the very bottom of the barrel, the doggies were about where we are now, so that's in perspective a decent head start on where we were when Roos took over

By rights, the Dogs rebuild should be starting this year. When you lose 3 of your better experienced players in Griffin, Cooney and Higgins, and then your B&f (Libba) for the season, as a 1st year coach, Beveridge would have been excused with a bottom 4 finish. The remaining senior players in Boyd, Morris and Murphy have been injury prone over the last 18 months, and many would have thought that they were on their last legs. If Melbourne were in their situation, many on here would be calling for them to retire, and play the kids.

Their start to the year has been nothing short of remarkable.

[mauriesy 7,256]

Fremantle are a very mature side. On Sunday they had only one player in their team with less than 50 games experience (they also a better midfielder than Ablett, fed by a crane for a ruckman).

Melbourne had 8 players under 50 games. Hogan, Salem, Michie, Newton and Brayshaw had less than 20. I'm not expecting these players to go anywhere near a team like Freo for a couple of years. Anything else is wishful thinking.

[Ted Lasso 19,284]

By rights, the Dogs rebuild should be starting this year. When you lose 3 of your better experienced players in Griffin, Cooney and Higgins, and then your B&f (Libba) for the season, as a 1st year coach, Beveridge would have been excused with a bottom 4 finish. The remaining senior players in Boyd, Morris and Murphy have been injury prone over the last 18 months, and many would have thought that they were on their last legs. If Melbourne were in their situation, many on here would be calling for them to retire, and play the kids.

Their start to the year has been nothing short of remarkable.

Agree totally, and i think Brendan Mcartney can take a lot of credit for it,

[Slartibartfast 17,189]

The real positive about having Roos is that he buys the club, and by extension the players, time.

Well I presume you mean one of the real positives because he brings so much more than that. He brings credibility, hope, dignity, professionalism and I reckon he's paid for his salary in increased sponsorship and membership. He's probably singlehandedly attracted players and staff - particularly footy staff - Stone and McCartney for starters. Lumumba and Tyson are probably only there because of Roos.

But IMO the greatest thing he has been responsible for is retaining players - Hogan and TMac to name two who may well have considered leaving unless the club got its shyte together very quickly and if they had left then our club was almost dead.

Having said that I don't believe he's immune from evaluation in other areas and I think it's folly to dismiss what others are doing and doing very successfully simply because Roos is Roos. I think most would agree that Hinkley has done exceptionally well at PA and his philosophy is different to Roos. Are we to dismiss it because any evaluation is purely conjecture? Very very early days but should we dismiss what Beverage is doing at Footscray purely because we've no proof it will work at Melbourne?

It goes without saying that Roos has been fantastic for us but if you sit on your laurels I reckon you'd be foolish indeed.

I think we have improved from last year but TBH I find it hard to identify anyone who is playing much better other than TMac and perhaps Garland; I've been disappointed with Lumumba. Hogan and Garlett are the difference I suppose but of our players from last year the improvement I hoped for has not been evident. That's disappointing and I don't think we should stifle the discussion and what role the coaching staff have played.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,825]

Fremantle are a very mature side. On Sunday they had only one player in their team with less than 50 games experience (they also a better midfielder than Ablett, fed by a crane for a ruckman).

Melbourne had 8 players under 50 games. Hogan, Salem, Michie, Newton and Brayshaw had less than 20. I'm not expecting these players to go anywhere near a team like Freo for a couple of years. Anything else is wishful thinking.

Far to reasonable! Didn't you know losing gives us permission to carry on like a bunch of idiots and throw common sense out the window?

Edit: Substituted whingers with idiots.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Ethan Tremblay

[mo64 5,853]

I think we have improved from last year but TBH I find it hard to identify anyone who is playing much better other than TMac and perhaps Garland; I've been disappointed with Lumumba. Hogan and Garlett are the difference I suppose but of our players from last year the improvement I hoped for has not been evident. That's disappointing and I don't think we should stifle the discussion and what role the coaching staff have played.

Bit of a premature call. We selected 7 new players for round 1, and with the possible exception of Frost, they are all in our best 22. We're 5 games in, and Viney, Vince, Jetta, Dawes, Kent and JKH have all missed games. Jones and Tyson are carrying injuries, and have been below their best. Of the rest, I'd say that T. Mac, Garland and Salem have improved. Jamar, Cross and Dunn have been at the same level, which only leaves Watts and Howe.

[chook fowler 19,444]

Viney was great prior to his injury. Garlett is doing as expected and Vandenberg and Newton have been handy.

Must agree I was hoping for more from Lamumba

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Fremantle are a very mature side. On Sunday they had only one player in their team with less than 50 games experience (they also a better midfielder than Ablett, fed by a crane for a ruckman).

Melbourne had 8 players under 50 games. Hogan, Salem, Michie, Newton and Brayshaw had less than 20. I'm not expecting these players to go anywhere near a team like Freo for a couple of years. Anything else is wishful thinking.

Correct. I keep comng back to this year after year. It does go a long way to explaining who wins games of football - our problem is that the average experience of our 22 stays low season after season. The reaosn is because we have players get to 50-100 games and instead of going on with careers , they fizzle out and get replaced by kids. This year it's Grimes, McKenzie, Pederson,etc etc etc

[hemingway 7,615]

Fremantle are a very mature side. On Sunday they had only one player in their team with less than 50 games experience (they also a better midfielder than Ablett, fed by a crane for a ruckman).

Melbourne had 8 players under 50 games. Hogan, Salem, Michie, Newton and Brayshaw had less than 20. I'm not expecting these players to go anywhere near a team like Freo for a couple of years. Anything else is wishful thinking.

Although we were badly beaten in the end, the hammering on the scoreboard came in the last Q. There are 60 + losses all the time and it is not all about Melbourne. Despite the disappointment with our individual and team performance I can't help think that this may have been a 100 + points loss in previous years. Perhaps not a good way to see it, but an indication that we have improved.

[mo64 5,853]

Although we were badly beaten in the end, the hammering on the scoreboard came in the last Q. There are 60 + losses all the time and it is not all about Melbourne. Despite the disappointment with our individual and team performance I can't help think that this may have been a 100 + points loss in previous years. Perhaps not a good way to see it, but an indication that we have improved.

Based on comments from T.Mac and Vince, the players felt that the scoreboard flattered them at 3/4 time. The only positive was that we created alot of scoring chances from limited inside 50s, and that has been the case all year.

[bluey 1,089]

Good luck to the Bulldogs, just because the MFC failed with a youth policy doesn't mean the policy is a failure. just means the MFC failed in the implementation.

McCartney and Cross are now with us, after being given the bullet, few people at the Bulldogs would be wishing they were still around.

[Timothy Reddan-A'Blew 5,065]

I'm vulnerable to thinking along the lines of a couple of common themes here: 1. Investing exaggerated hope in the youngies who show immediate capability (Hogan, Brayshaw, etc) because of their relative scarcity at MFC and the perceived (positive!) difference between them and many of their experienced colleagues; and 2. Perceiving that those among these more experienced colleagues who were once like these current youngies have apparently since dropped off.

So I'll be keeping an eye on Christian Salem, who has shown himself this year to be one of the first group, I reckon, in the hope Taberner's slam on him after his mark in the 2nd quarter won't make some small contribution to sliding him into the second group. My head tells me he doesn't seem the sort to be affected like that. That there was no suggestion of a head drop in taking such a dangerous mark, and the way he (eventually) bounced up to take his kick, suggests he isn't. Keep up the good work Christian!

[jnrmac 20,053]

Viney was great prior to his injury. Garlett is doing as expected and Vandenberg and Newton have been handy.

Must agree I was hoping for more from Lamumba

Bum wrap I reckon H does a lot of stuff off the ball that goes unnoticed, directs traffic and organises the defence. He's not a prodigious accumulator of the ball but very valuable nonetheless

[Slartibartfast 17,189]

Great stuff from McPherson:

We’re pretty confident in our ability to compete and beat anyone – if we play to the game plan that we put in place,” he told Dee TV.

“We think it stands up and the boys have shown on two or three occasions this year that we can be competitive against anyone.

“We’ll go in pretty confident that provided we all play our role and stick to our game plan, we’re a really good chance to beat the Swans. If we don’t, we’ll get a result like we did on the weekend.”

[jumbo returns 6,737]

Great stuff from McPherson:

We’re pretty confident in our ability to compete and beat anyone – if we play to the game plan that we put in place,” he told Dee TV.

“We think it stands up and the boys have shown on two or three occasions this year that we can be competitive against anyone.

“We’ll go in pretty confident that provided we all play our role and stick to our game plan, we’re a really good chance to beat the Swans. If we don’t, we’ll get a result like we did on the weekend.”

Delusional.

We have too many injuries....no depth.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I'm vulnerable to thinking along the lines of a couple of common themes here: 1. Investing exaggerated hope in the youngies who show immediate capability (Hogan, Brayshaw, etc) because of their relative scarcity at MFC and the perceived (positive!) difference between them and many of their experienced colleagues; and 2. Perceiving that those among these more experienced colleagues who were once like these current youngies have apparently since dropped off.

So I'll be keeping an eye on Christian Salem, who has shown himself this year to be one of the first group, I reckon, in the hope Taberner's slam on him after his mark in the 2nd quarter won't make some small contribution to sliding him into the second group. My head tells me he doesn't seem the sort to be affected like that. That there was no suggestion of a head drop in taking such a dangerous mark, and the way he (eventually) bounced up to take his kick, suggests he isn't. Keep up the good work Christian!

his kick was a regulation set shot on goal (albeit a 40 metre penalty instead of 50) that he missed

[Nasher 33,607]

his kick was a regulation set shot on goal (albeit a 40 metre penalty instead of 50) that he missed

No doubt the concussion he was suffering at the time wasn't a big help.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

No doubt the concussion he was suffering at the time wasn't a big help.

someone else should've taken it then

[Deestroy All 14,262]

someone else should've taken it then

And had they missed?

Would you then blame:

A) whichever defender it was that was closest to Salem at the time

B) Salem for being a [censored] and not taking the kick

C) Both

D) Jack Watts

E) All of the above?

[Ted Lasso 19,284]

This attitude is part of the cultural change, we may be huge long shots but the club needs to believe we can win every game to be great again, I think the club thinks it can beat good teams if things go right for us, but belief is something else entirely and something I haven't seen in our club since rev was coach and a bloke called neitz captained

[grazman 7,406]

Well I presume you mean one of the real positives because he brings so much more than that.

Having said that I don't believe he's immune from evaluation in other areas and I think it's folly to dismiss what others are doing and doing very successfully simply because Roos is Roos.

It goes without saying that Roos has been fantastic for us but if you sit on your laurels I reckon you'd be foolish indeed.

I think we have improved from last year but TBH I find it hard to identify anyone who is playing much better other than TMac and perhaps Garland; I've been disappointed with Lumumba. Hogan and Garlett are the difference I suppose but of our players from last year the improvement I hoped for has not been evident. That's disappointing and I don't think we should stifle the discussion and what role the coaching staff have played.

Ahhh, been caught out. Yes, well sort of, maybe. Of course the other positives are important and I wasn't trying to imply it was the only attribute he brought. It is after all a purely academic exercise to break them up into discreet parts (like you could segment Roos and sell off the bits you don't need), but development takes time and therefor in my opinion after three lost years the one thing the club needed was for time without the media blowtorch being constantly turned on to the club (although plenty of fans are happy to do this themselves). Of course this doesn't mean that I think Roos immune from criticism and I'm not sure he's one to rest on his laurels. The best teachers always remain the best students - they continue to have a thirst for knowledge. I think Roos is intelligent and thoughtful and I don't see that he's stuck in a 2005 premiership loop, I think he's moved on. In the same vein its an interesting, but ultimately futile speculative exercise whether Hinkley or Beveridge would achieve the same results at Melbourne. There are too many different variables to know whether their approaches would achieve better results than what we're seeing at the moment. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. RDB had won premierships at Carlton and North, but couldn't do that at Melbourne... had football moved on past his coaching style (was it really that much different to Alan Jeans' style for example) or were we just short on talent?

My point is that both Hinkley and Beveridge had a better starting point than Roos with substantially better lists/development. I think a fairer comparison is to look at a side like Collingwood and think talent wise (with the exception of Pendlebury) that we are about the same mark in terms of overall talent, but they are performing way above expectations. The issue is that many of our blokes aren't anywhere near as well drilled- yet. Watch the way the Pies play, they block and shepherd for team mates, they run to the right spaces and they know where their team mates will be, they shadow their opponents. That takes time and it takes discipline. It will be fairer to compare Goodwin in another 18 months, to both Hinkley and Beveridge.

Unlike McPherson, I'm not expecting us to beat Sydney on Sat night, but I am expecting that we will play tough, hard contested footy to the best of our ability without waving the flag like we did in the fourth quarter against the Dockers.

As an interesting sidenote, I've now heard Roos repeat the same line that Phil Walsh said on the Couch about learning not to 'overcoach' on game day. Footy's a very simple game, but prone to unnecessary overcomplexity.

Edited May 5, 2015 by grazman