Howe - back or forward?

[jacey 333]

I think he plays better footy down back. The required level of concentration seems to suit him. Up forward he goes missing for long periods & makes silly errors

Maybe playing back was an education that Howe needed.

Learning to concentrate and not drift in and out of games.

Learn forward running patterns and work rate from other forwards.

Howe playing fwd of centre will be more damaging.

[daisycutter 28,709]

Thanks for your thoughts.

So, to respond correctly to the OP;

Backline;

Locked in - McDonald, Dunn, Jetta, Lumumba.

Next - Garland (probably someone who has Howe covered due to him being able to play small or tall a lot better)

Fighting for 6th spot - Howe, Frost, Grimes

Verdict - Could depend on what Roos wants to do with the likes of Toumpas. Could he get some confidence by playing in "the easiest position"? Some will have Frost as a lock, which would mean Dunn can play short(er) if need be.

Forwardline;

Locked in - Hogan, Dawes, Watts (HFF), Garlett

Next - 2nd ruck option (ie Pedersen, Gawn)

Fighting for 6th spot - Kent, JKH, Cross, Howe

Verdict - One HFF spot available. I personally like what Kent brings, and I loved what Cross brought (who may even be able to play HBF if need be).

When you have a centreline (ie 2 wings and one in the middle), then a ruck rover and rover, that is 5 onfield "midfield" positions (Jones, Vince, Tyson, Viney is 4), meaning we have 4 spots (ie 1 onfield mid, 3 on the bench), with Salem, Riley, Michie, Newton, Brayshaw, Petracca. That list would also include either Kent and/or Cross.

As you should be able to see, JH is far, far from one of the first picked.

For your benefit, I've bolded the players that I consider "first picked" - there are 17 players, plus Jamar (not mentioned above). All 18 (inc Jamar) have specific roles to play.

I have 4 spots left to fill my team, and that has to come from Toumpas, Riley, Michie, Howe, Newton, Brayshaw, Petracca, Frost, JKH, Bail, Matt Jones and Grimes - all players that could arguably fill the remaining spots in 2015. Most of those players could play HFF or HBF if need be.

That's my reason why I think you're immediately wrong for having Howe as a first picked player.

just another 2c worth

there is generally 7 forwards, 7 backs and 7 mids

the interchange players typically play as many minutes as the starting 18

often the interchange starts with a top 10 player

[monoccular 16,516]

He would be a bloody difficult match up on a wing, and can drift forward to within scoring range as well as having learned a bit about defence last year.

He would be A kick out target going back to the 50 arc.

Anyone who has been to training - which group is he with, assuming that there are groups already.

Edited December 3, 2014 by monoccular

[Qwerty30 196]

Another poster referred that Howe had been training with the defenders.

It will get crowded on the wing as there have been a number of leads suggesting Lumumba will be played on the wing.

[deeko 937]

It's two seasons up forward under Neeld, one down back under Roos. It seems like Roos is keen to move him forward, and I'll trust that he'll get the best out of him.

To be honest, apart from the marking, IMO Howe is a pretty conventional player (i.e. not outside the box, rather than avg) - he often provides a hard leading target from up forward.

The player who replaces Jeremy in our backline will do a comparable job. I'm not sure if anyone has quite the ability to do the same in the fwd line. Guys who kick goals are just very valuable - kicked 30 goals in one of the most depressing sides to play since 1859.

In bold sums it up pitchfork.

I think we have a few players who can play that extra defender and intercept player. Now that we have Frost, who most believe is best 22, I feel Dunn could be that player. Also, would be nice that we might see Judy get back to his best with completing a full pre-season.

Howe can hit the scoreboard and is a massive point of difference in the forward line.

If (and its a big if!) we ever get our full squad on the park we would see most likely Hoges, Dawes, a rest Maxy/Jamar down forward. Howe would have to get the 4th defender and also not get double teamed like years gone by as the defenders would have to worry about the other 3.

One on one the guys a beast. His contested marking stats confirm it.

[titan_uranus 22,923]

My vote is forward. I don't think a long-term successful MFC side has Howe playing off half-back; he wasn't that good at it, there was just more opportunity for him to touch the ball there in 2014 than there was in the forward line.

I can definitely see him playing a long-term role as a dangerous mobile forward though.

[daisycutter 28,709]

My vote is forward. I don't think a long-term successful MFC side has Howe playing off half-back; he wasn't that good at it, there was just more opportunity for him to touch the ball there in 2014 than there was in the forward line.

I can definitely see him playing a long-term role as a dangerous mobile forward though.

that is a bit unfair, considering he has only had one year in his career in the backline i would say he did quite well for such a big change

there is ever reason to suggest he would only get better as a backman with more exposure there

however, i would prefer him mainly as a winger where it would be much harder for the opposition to double or triple man him in marking contests plus last year's experience in defensive play gives him an extra trick in his arsenal.

additionally, he could be thrown forward or back when/as required

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

Thanks for your thoughts.

So, to respond correctly to the OP;

.

To be fair that's the best response I've seen to many of my questions and reading through it I completely understand your logic and thoughts now.

I would have Howe picked ahead of Garland purely due to form towards the latter end of the season, his intercepts and disposal out of our backline was very handy as well as the third man over the top.

I would have Howe as the forward flank ahead of Watts who I think will spend plenty of time on the wing this year.

But most importantly his ability to play as a defender, forward and spend time in the midfield is why he is vital in the make up of our team. Not to mention his natural abilities (running and jumping/marking) and also he is one of the much better ball users in our team which is another reason he is a certain selection.

I still agree with what you have stated but barring injury he will play 22 games and I think this year push for top 5 bnf

[Go the Biff 3,211]

Another poster referred that Howe had been training with the defenders.

It will get crowded on the wing as there have been a number of leads suggesting Lumumba will be played on the wing.

There's plenty of room. The only one we've got, for all his shortcomings, is Matty Jones

[Go the Biff 3,211]

In bold sums it up pitchfork.

I think we have a few players who can play that extra defender and intercept player. Now that we have Frost, who most believe is best 22, I feel Dunn could be that player. Also, would be nice that we might see Judy get back to his best with completing a full pre-season.

Howe can hit the scoreboard and is a massive point of difference in the forward line.

If (and its a big if!) we ever get our full squad on the park we would see most likely Hoges, Dawes, a rest Maxy/Jamar down forward. Howe would have to get the 4th defender and also not get double teamed like years gone by as the defenders would have to worry about the other 3.

One on one the guys a beast. His contested marking stats confirm it.

Much as he's improved, I wouldn't be relying on Dunn for intercept marking. Garland maybe.

[rjay 24,126]

Wing, high half fwd. he is bloody fit. wasted deep in forward line.

imagine having him on the wing one on one. T Mac has the ball under pressure in def 50. best bail-out kick there is. look for Howey, hack it in his general direction, he'll sit on the blokes head!

then hit up Hogan and BANG! GOAL!

Agree with you, but probably needs to learn to get his hands on the ball a bit more and work as an outside player as well as a marking option.

[Coup Cooper 610]

Much as he's improved, I wouldn't be relying on Dunn for intercept marking. Garland maybe.

Have you missed the last 40 games Dunn has played?

[The Chazz 4,077]

To be fair that's the best response I've seen to many of my questions and reading through it I completely understand your logic and thoughts now.

I would have Howe picked ahead of Garland purely due to form towards the latter end of the season, his intercepts and disposal out of our backline was very handy as well as the third man over the top.

I would have Howe as the forward flank ahead of Watts who I think will spend plenty of time on the wing this year.

But most importantly his ability to play as a defender, forward and spend time in the midfield is why he is vital in the make up of our team. Not to mention his natural abilities (running and jumping/marking) and also he is one of the much better ball users in our team which is another reason he is a certain selection.

I still agree with what you have stated but barring injury he will play 22 games and I think this year push for top 5 bnf

I think he looks out of his depth playing HBF. I don't know if it's playing an unfamiliar role, or that he's just not that good, but I think he was lost on may occasions in 2014 on the HBF, and I think our backline is a lot better when he's not in it. He was indecisive - not knowing when to mark, punch, leave his man, etc. They, of all departments on the ground, need to gel the best, I'm not sure if it does with him there.

That, to me, leaves his best option as a HFF, as I don't think he has the tank to play predominantly as a mid yet. That HFF position is the competitive one, with the likes of Kent and Salem having a lot of upside that would slot perfectly in to that position.

Howe will likely play Round 1, and most likely Round 2. I'm hoping that if he plays 22 in '15 that it's because of his form, as opposed to some players that I have higher expectations of not coming on. I admire your call about him pushing for top 5 in the B&F, but he should be far from our 5th best player - will say more about others than it will of Jeremy.

To me, JH is our most overated player, and one I would have at the top of my list to trade. I'm not saying he's a dud, he's an ok footballer, but I think some, Melbourne supporters included, value him a lot higher than his worth. I guess to justify/support my view, I rate both Kent and Howe on a similar level. We wouldn't be offered anywhere near as much for Kent as we would for Howe.

I hope I'm wrong, and he wins the Brownlow next year - I will happily apologise to him.

[nutbean 8,837]

He was indecisive - not knowing when to mark, punch, leave his man, etc. They, of all departments on the ground, need to gel the best, I'm not sure if it does with him there.

Apparently he did know when to mark. Took the second most marks for the year behind Frawley and clearly took the most contested marks.

He did get caught out a bit but I thought he did a good job down back.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Apparently he did know when to mark. Took the second most marks for the year behind Frawley and clearly took the most contested marks.

He did get caught out a bit but I thought he did a good job down back.

Ahh, the good old stats that tell part of a story but not all.

Tell me how many of those marks were junk time marks, or marks where we were playing keepings off in our backline.

I remember when the below clip happened. Going in to 2014 I was a believer of Howe, but from that moment I decided to keep a close eye on him. I was disappointed for most of the season, which is some fault of my own as I had rated him a lot higher than what his output matched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQEez1OMshc

FWIW, I'm in no doubt there was a moment in that last quarter (after the spray) where Howe was sulking. I'm sure if you watched the replay of it you will know exactly the moment.

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

I think he looks out of his depth playing HBF. I don't know if it's playing an unfamiliar role, or that he's just not that good, but I think he was lost on may occasions in 2014 on the HBF, and I think our backline is a lot better when he's not in it. He was indecisive - not knowing when to mark, punch, leave his man, etc. They, of all departments on the ground, need to gel the best, I'm not sure if it does with him there.

That, to me, leaves his best option as a HFF, as I don't think he has the tank to play predominantly as a mid yet. That HFF position is the competitive one, with the likes of Kent and Salem having a lot of upside that would slot perfectly in to that position.

Howe will likely play Round 1, and most likely Round 2. I'm hoping that if he plays 22 in '15 that it's because of his form, as opposed to some players that I have higher expectations of not coming on. I admire your call about him pushing for top 5 in the B&F, but he should be far from our 5th best player - will say more about others than it will of Jeremy.

To me, JH is our most overated player, and one I would have at the top of my list to trade. I'm not saying he's a dud, he's an ok footballer, but I think some, Melbourne supporters included, value him a lot higher than his worth. I guess to justify/support my view, I rate both Kent and Howe on a similar level. We wouldn't be offered anywhere near as much for Kent as we would for Howe.

I hope I'm wrong, and he wins the Brownlow next year - I will happily apologise to him.

There were definite times in the year where he was caught in no mans land as a defender, leaving his man to influence the contest and not getting enough on the ball or choosing to mark instead of spoil. But I think those errors were very few, I recall him having one game that was an absolute stinker and he copped the rocket from Roos, but his overall improvement on his defensive game throughout the year was impressive. Smothering and tackling to me improved as the year went on and I can not ever recall thinking he was hammered by his opponent.

I cant remember the exact stat but he was in top 10 for intercept marks in the latter half of the year and this is what value he adds to the defense and he can use the footy a whole lot better than the other flanker options, Lumumba, Grimes, Terlich.

I thought he was over rated going into last year and thought he was just a bits and piece player and especially when he struggled in our forward line when we needed him, but his transition for the most part of last year was what made me think he is a definite top 10 player.

Kent is a bit of a different player, as he will play small forward rather than provide a marking option, but I see the point. With Garlett coming in as a crumber it makes competition for spots in the forward half greater. Howe ran his pb in the 3k and is on the improve, so I hope he is able to improve like i think he will and hold out Salem and JKH for that other forward, or keep his spot in defense on merit and not because of his "ability" as he has probably done under Neeld

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,194]

I'd like to see Howe play high half forward/wing in tandem with Watts.

He's building a pretty good tank and is able to exploit his greatest asset (his high marking) if he has some space to move in.

[Webber 10,181]

He's a winger if ever I've seen one. What the boy needs is space, to run into, through, and from. It also is the way he uses his marking talents best. The problem he is facing up forward is when there is a compression of other players, his defender simply bodies him out of the play, as his contested work body on body is woeful. He is the classic outside player with good hands and an insane leap. He doesn't like bodying up, and he's no good at it. Now his endurance is growing, we should see the best of Jeremy Howe. A stay at home, mark clunking forward he is not. A free running, long kicking, hanger taking forward floating winger he is.

[Go the Biff 3,211]

Have you missed the last 40 games Dunn has played?

Not at all. He's been a terrific one on one defender. But he's not a sure mark - to the point he'll sometime go the double fist spoil rather than mark & drifting across the front of packs is not his go

[The Chazz 4,077]

Not at all. He's been a terrific one on one defender. But he's not a sure mark - to the point he'll sometime go the double fist spoil rather than mark & drifting across the front of packs is not his go

I'd rather a defender punching rather than attempting to mark, than a defender that attempts to mark when he should punch.

That role is the only part of Rivers that I miss. He knew when to do either.

[pitmaster 3,140]

I am confident the year in defence was part of his education.

If he went missing as a forward in the past it might have something to do with the fact that there were few other effective targets.

Give Dawes one Hulk Hogan as a foil and Garlett as a crumber then Howe starts to receive less attention and maybe missing less often.

I see him going forward again and being pretty effective along with Watts playing as a wing - high forward to those other three who will be the nucleus of attack.

Should be pretty interesting, really.

[deeko 937]

That HFF position is the competitive one, with the likes of Kent and Salem having a lot of upside that would slot perfectly in to that position.

To me, JH is our most overated player, and one I would have at the top of my list to trade. I'm not saying he's a dud, he's an ok footballer, but I think some, Melbourne supporters included, value him a lot higher than his worth. I guess to justify/support my view, I rate both Kent and Howe on a similar level. We wouldn't be offered anywhere near as much for Kent as we would for Howe.

You're a tough judge on him billy I'll give you that!

I think supporters serious under rate Howe forgetting how good he was in a team that was so (soooooooooo) bad and forgetting the fact he played in a spot that he never has before in his life this season.

We over rate Kent and Salem a lot more in my opinion at present. Both will be fine players I believe but they have shown little more than snippets in there careers so far. I do really like both of these two but Howe offers a hell of a lot more

[nutbean 8,837]

Ahh, the good old stats that tell part of a story but not all.

Tell me how many of those marks were junk time marks, or marks where we were playing keepings off in our backline.

I remember when the below clip happened. Going in to 2014 I was a believer of Howe, but from that moment I decided to keep a close eye on him. I was disappointed for most of the season, which is some fault of my own as I had rated him a lot higher than what his output matched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQEez1OMshc

FWIW, I'm in no doubt there was a moment in that last quarter (after the spray) where Howe was sulking. I'm sure if you watched the replay of it you will know exactly the moment.

Each to their own. I think he had quite a good season and saw enough intercept marks in the back half to think that sending him back was a good move.

Was he exposed a few times - absolutely. I think it was his forward line upbringing where he didn't have to mind a player that caused the lapses but overall I thought he was ok.

Having said that, we will not improve with players like Howe remaining "ok". He needs to do a lot more and be a lot better as do a lot on our list.

[nutbean 8,837]

I'd rather a defender punching rather than attempting to mark, than a defender that attempts to mark when he should punch.

That role is the only part of Rivers that I miss. He knew when to do either.

What I noticed was that Howe was rarely if ever outmarked this past season. To the extent, his prowess at marking is so well known that on occasions I saw forwards going the spoil on Howe.

[ignition. 1,426]

Some really excellent points made for either side and he certainly saw a lot more action this year playing down back.

Although for me I hope to see him spend a bit more time in the forward line come 2015.

With the inclusion of Hogan alongside Dawes he will make a very nice 3rd or 4th option next as would Watts (and maybe Petracca if up to it) who are both capable of pushing up into the midfield. Garlett is also available to crumb at their feet.

With the new inclusions into the back line it should be close to locked down with Dunn, Garland, McDonald, Frost, Jetta, Grimes and Lumumba (creating run) and all rotating though.

I think our midfield can only improve as such youngsters like Tyson and Viney are likely to step it up another notch, so hopefully we see an improvement in the numbers and delivery inside our forward 50.

However on the basis Roos opts to place a spare man back, Howe should be the first named to play that floating role to pick off and intercept marks.

If Howe becomes a quality swing man, forward, back, doesn't matter, I'll be very happy.