Post Match Discussion - Round 19

[Scoop Junior 3,435]

I will say again: the drafts of 2008-2011 are our lost generation and we need to cut our losses.

From 2007 to 2009 we were armed with the type of draft picks you can completely rebuild a list with.

10 top 20 draft picks in three years. Of course there are no guarantees but surely you can at least secure a few stars with that draft bounty.

Out of those 10 picks 8 have been failures. One has been a success (Grimes) and the other may or may not be (Trengove). Of the others Morton, Maric, Gysberts and Scully are gone, Tapscott, Blease and Strauss may join them this year and Watts has been an enormous disappointment.

How can you have a 20% (or less) success rate with so many high picks? It's absolutely baffling and it's one of the key reasons why we are where we are.

Watching us yesterday handle and use the ball like it was a pineapple just makes you shake your head at what could have been had we made the right decisions back then. Instead of a clutch of talented 23-24 year olds we are left with a gaping hole and a group of battlers who are not up to it.

As loyal supporters of this club we have been robbed.

[P-man 13,366]

From 2007 to 2009 we were armed with the type of draft picks you can completely rebuild a list with.

10 top 20 draft picks in three years. Of course there are no guarantees but surely you can at least secure a few stars with that draft bounty.

Out of those 10 picks 8 have been failures. One has been a success (Grimes) and the other may or may not be (Trengove). Of the others Morton, Maric, Gysberts and Scully are gone, Tapscott, Blease and Strauss may join them this year and Watts has been an enormous disappointment.

How can you have a 20% (or less) success rate with so many high picks? It's absolutely baffling and it's one of the key reasons why we are where we are.

Watching us yesterday handle and use the ball like it was a pineapple just makes you shake your head at what could have been had we made the right decisions back then. Instead of a clutch of talented 23-24 year olds we are left with a gaping hole and a group of battlers who are not up to it.

As loyal supporters of this club we have been robbed.

Honestly, it is staggering.

Outsiders would argue that Trengove and Grimes could be added to the failure list, which would mean 0% success rate. But we'll allow those two to be rated a success I suppose.

Robbed is the only way to put it.

[Nasher 33,613]

Honestly, it is staggering.

Outsiders would argue that Trengove and Grimes could be added to the failure list, which would mean 0% success rate. But we'll allow those two to be rated a success I suppose.

Robbed is the only way to put it.

Under what criteria would you call Trengove or Grimes failures? No doubt they've been disappointing but they do not belong in the same bucket as Morton, Strauss, Tapscott, Blease, Gysberts, Cook et al. They can, have and do play AFL standard football.

[rjay 24,898]

Under what criteria would you call Trengove or Grimes failures? No doubt they've been disappointing but they do not belong in the same bucket as Morton, Strauss, Tapscott, Blease, Gysberts, Cook et al. They can, have and do play AFL standard football.

That could be argued 'Nasher'. I still have hopes for Trenners but his performances last year were not up to AFL standard and he quickly found himself at Casey this year...we will excuse him through injury (and pressure of captaincy) but he needs to have a big year next year. Grimes is gives us some good, some bad so we can leave him out of the bucket for now but only just.

[old dee 23,782]

After watching yesterdays game and having endured the last eight years I am very close to the end.

Not only are we still losing 90% of the time but the games are next to impossible to watch.

I don't have that many years left on this planet.

I am wonder why I should waste heart beats any longer on the MFC.

[P-man 13,366]

Under what criteria would you call Trengove or Grimes failures? No doubt they've been disappointing but they do not belong in the same bucket as Morton, Strauss, Tapscott, Blease, Gysberts, Cook et al. They can, have and do play AFL standard football.

I didn't say me, I said outsiders. Trengove has all but dropped off the radar since his second season and has been nowhere near the standard of a number 2 pick. To what extent that can be attributed to his injury remains to be seen. I wouldn't call him a failure yet because he obviously has talent that we as supporters have seen and remember, and hopefully we see a regenerated JT in 2015.

Grimes splits opinion, let's be honest. He hasn't been a raging success.

But neither should be grouped with the rest.

[jazza 1,323]

Our improvements are clearly measurable.

Yesterday i watched our changeovers or swaps,when a player runs around the back of the "mark".This was one of our worst areas of team game must "DOs" and we have improved heaps in this tactic,although still far behind from being a contender {top2}but at least its an indicator of our improvement.

Kicking to area has also improved,

[Guest]

From 2007 to 2009 we were armed with the type of draft picks you can completely rebuild a list with.

10 top 20 draft picks in three years. Of course there are no guarantees but surely you can at least secure a few stars with that draft bounty.

Out of those 10 picks 8 have been failures. One has been a success (Grimes) and the other may or may not be (Trengove). Of the others Morton, Maric, Gysberts and Scully are gone, Tapscott, Blease and Strauss may join them this year and Watts has been an enormous disappointment.

How can you have a 20% (or less) success rate with so many high picks? It's absolutely baffling and it's one of the key reasons why we are where we are.

Watching us yesterday handle and use the ball like it was a pineapple just makes you shake your head at what could have been had we made the right decisions back then. Instead of a clutch of talented 23-24 year olds we are left with a gaping hole and a group of battlers who are not up to it.

As loyal supporters of this club we have been robbed.

Perhaps they were a draft generation that could have set us up for 10 years. However, the whys, whos and whats are now irrelevant. They haven't come on and all the hoping in the world won't make them into top line AFL players. To keep looking at them as the next generation to take us forward is pointless. We are at ground zero.

We have been robbed but recriminations and finger pointing won't help. We just need to salvage as much as we can from the wreckage and start over. When I say that, I do understand why people get cheesed off about it all.

You can tell a bit by how that group of players recruited in 2008-2013 views themselves and how real professionals from other clubs view themselves by listening to Jack Grimes and Daniel Cross. I almost felt sorry for Grimesy last year when he was forced to front the media after yet another mauling. He almost sounded like a naughty schoolboy who had been scolded by the principal: full of apologies and promises of never misbehaving again with his eyes down and a frown on his face.

Let's be honest. Crossy isn't the most eloquent speaker and the amount of times he 'umms' and 'ahhhs' in an interview drives me crazy as an English teacher. Grimes, as a man, is more articulate. However, Crossy said something after the Eagles loss that got me out of my seat. He was talking about how some people in the club might view the loss as yet another 'here we go again moment' and how some in the club had the expectation that supporters would continue to come so long as the senior list had a crack. Instead of the usual MFC platitudes about not wanting to let the fans down or another empty promise about never playing that way again, he looked at Matt Burgan (?) dead in the eye and said 'Well no, bugger that. I want to be besides blokes who are hell bent on winning at all costs and have a mindset of winning at all costs'

I had never seen a Melbourne player speak that forcefully in well never! There have been better acts of flying the flag (Garry Lyon against Richmond in 1997 and Neita ironing out Luke McCabe) but I haven't seen a Melbourne player actually just tell it like that. In the end, that is the difference. Crossy views losses like that as not consistent as the values he has a man and it infuriates him to lose like that. The post 2008 group seem to have no pride in themselves, have no conviction in what they do and say and merely view losing as their lot in life.

That is the problem with our 2008-2012 draft class. Publicly, it seems like they are sorry for even being AFL footballers (that being said, they enjoy all the other perks that this profession brings them).

Edited August 4, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[old dee 23,782]

Our improvements are clearly measurable.

Yesterday i watched our changeovers or swaps,when a player runs around the back of the "mark".This was one of our worst areas of team game must "DOs" and we have improved heaps in this tactic,although still far behind from being a contender {top2}but at least its an indicator of our improvement.

Kicking to area has also improved,

Would not take very long to measure them jazza

[Satyriconhome 10,742]

After watching yesterdays game and having endured the last eight years I am very close to the end.

Not only are we still losing 90% of the time but the games are next to impossible to watch.

I don't have that many years left on this planet.

I am wonder why I should waste heart beats any longer on the MFC.

Hang OD, yes yesterday was horrible, I walked out with about 5 minutes to go, for the first time ever,...and I am thinking of taking a blindfold next week, but there was still a flicker of life...Viney getting a bit more education, Nev Jetta and Lynden Dunn carrying on with their consistent performances, Kent, Riley,Tyson, Tommy Mc showing glimpses....we all know there will be big changes, and pre season will be a [censored]...but Roos has at least got something to work with, I have faith he will get us back on track

Edited August 4, 2014 by Satyriconhome

[jazza 1,323]

Would not take very long to measure them jazza

Well last year{and thats the only measure we need}Players didnt even chop out for their mates in this regard.

So i would count this as a plus.And thats all we can do at this stage,ADD up whats better.

[Guest]

Our improvements are clearly measurable.

Yesterday i watched our changeovers or swaps,when a player runs around the back of the "mark".This was one of our worst areas of team game must "DOs" and we have improved heaps in this tactic,although still far behind from being a contender {top2}but at least its an indicator of our improvement.

Kicking to area has also improved,

We have improved. No ifs, buts or maybes. Certain players have been salvaged (Dunn is the model of consistency and no longer acts like a tool, Jetta is a solid yet elusive shutdown small defender who has done great jobs on Josh Green and Eddie Betts).

What happened yesterday was a reminder.

If set against the internal MFC standards of last year, we have improved. However, we are that far off the rest of the competition and the standards they have set that it's not funny.

Imagine if we perform those kind of skill errors next week? Roughy might break Fred Fanning's goal kicking record.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Colin B. Flaubert

[JV7 2,350]

Hang OD, yes yesterday was horrible, I walked out with about 5 minutes to go, for the first time ever,...and I am thinking of taking a blindfold next week, but there was still a flicker of life...Viney getting a bit more education, Nev Jetta and Lynden Dunn carrying on with their consistent performances, Kent, Riley,Tyson, Tommy Mc showing glimpses....we all know there will be big changes, and pre season will be a [censored]...but Roos has at least got something to work with, I have faith he will get us back on track

Which part of dunns game yesterday was consistent to his form most of the year ? I thought he was pathetic yesterday. Not sure if he played on Mcstay or Close because there both unknowns to me but he had one of them and either way he was soundly beaten by a kid who's played a handful of game...

Agree with previous posts on bernie, he was lazy yesterday. His foot skills were appalling .

Garland is a shadow of his former self. He did miss majoritity of the pre season so I'm hoping it's that.

Jamar was beaten by a former club reject

I hope watts is carrying some form of injury

Sam Blease may aswell walk now.. Dumb, uses his pace to run into trouble rather than out of it and never uses it to run down/tackle anyone. Can't kick

Thank Christ the NFL starts this weekend.

Edited August 4, 2014 by JV7

[Nasher 33,613]

That could be argued 'Nasher'. I still have hopes for Trenners but his performances last year were not up to AFL standard and he quickly found himself at Casey this year...we will excuse him through injury (and pressure of captaincy) but he needs to have a big year next year. Grimes is gives us some good, some bad so we can leave him out of the bucket for now but only just.

I remember about a decade ago now, Craig Cameron spent some time on 'land rubbing shoulders with the fans, and one of the things he discussed was how 'success' was measured in the recruiting field. One of the things back then was number of games played - which produced funny results like calling Aaron Fiora a success. By this measure, Grimes 85 games makes him a clearly successful pick.

Again, that's not to say that he hasn't been disapointing in my ways, but if people want to argue that Grimes has not been a sucessful draft pick, I'm very interested to hear what clear, measurable, repeatable metric they are using to measure it.

[P-man 13,366]

I remember about a decade ago now, Craig Cameron spent some time on 'land rubbing shoulders with the fans, and one of the things he discussed was how 'success' was measured in the recruiting field. One of the things back then was number of games played - which produced funny results like calling Aaron Fiora a success. By this measure, Grimes 85 games makes him a clearly successful pick.

Again, that's not to say that he hasn't been disapointing in my ways, but if people want to argue that Grimes has not been a sucessful draft pick, I'm very interested to hear what clear, measurable, repeatable metric they are using to measure it.

It comes to down to where the bar is for "success". The answer to your question lies in why you would consider him to be disappointing.

Others would judge disappointing as not being a success. It is subjective.

[old dee 23,782]

Which part of dunns game yesterday was consistent to his form most of the year ? I thought he was pathetic yesterday. Not sure if he played on Mcstay or Close because there both unknowns to me but he had one of them and either way he was soundly beaten by a kid who's played a handful of game...

Agree with previous posts on bernie, he was lazy yesterday. His foot skills were appalling .

Garland is a shadow of his former self. He did miss majoritity of the pre season so I'm hoping it's that.

Jamar was beaten by a former club reject

I hope watts is carrying some form of injury

Sam Blease may aswell walk now.. Dumb, uses his pace to run into trouble rather than out of it and never uses it to run down/tackle anyone. Can't kick

Thank Christ the NFL starts this weekend.

Just improved my day JV7 I had forgotten.

[old dee 23,782]

Hang OD, yes yesterday was horrible, I walked out with about 5 minutes to go, for the first time ever,...and I am thinking of taking a blindfold next week, but there was still a flicker of life...Viney getting a bit more education, Nev Jetta and Lynden Dunn carrying on with their consistent performances, Kent, Riley,Tyson, Tommy Mc showing glimpses....we all know there will be big changes, and pre season will be a [censored]...but Roos has at least got something to work with, I have faith he will get us back on track

I am just over being the choping block for every side in the comp Saty

[jazza 1,323]

Hang OD, yes yesterday was horrible, I walked out with about 5 minutes to go, for the first time ever,...and I am thinking of taking a blindfold next week, but there was still a flicker of life...Viney getting a bit more education, Nev Jetta and Lynden Dunn carrying on with their consistent performances, Kent, Riley,Tyson, Tommy Mc showing glimpses....we all know there will be big changes, and pre season will be a [censored]...but Roos has at least got something to work with, I have faith he will get us back on track

Its not that bad fella.

Our backline has begun to learn how to kick to "area"

The coach has worked out who can and who cant.Delistings ans swaps coming up.No more nice blokes at our club.

Midfield has improved in so many ways,{just not how unfooty people like},Next step 2 clear Nicky Dals and another ruck option.

Alot of eggs in Hoges to be a power forward and maybe PR to trade for a 3 year fill in forward.

Its all good saty,

Whatever you do ,dont panic.

[poita 3,898]

Hang OD, yes yesterday was horrible, I walked out with about 5 minutes to go, for the first time ever,...and I am thinking of taking a blindfold next week, but there was still a flicker of life...Viney getting a bit more education, Nev Jetta and Lynden Dunn carrying on with their consistent performances, Kent, Riley,Tyson, Tommy Mc showing glimpses....we all know there will be big changes, and pre season will be a [censored]...but Roos has at least got something to work with, I have faith he will get us back on track

Gee you're easily pleased. Dunn was woeful yesterday - the only one of our defenders to be clearly beaten. Riley & Kent do one nice thing and their next five contributions are shocking. Viney doesn't need an education, he needs to go and get the football. And none of which speaks to how bad the opposition were.

Our defence has clearly improved relative to 2013, but we are six forwards, four midfielders and a ruckman off being a finals team at present, and that assumes we don't lose any more free agents in the meantime.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

I am just over being the choping block for every side in the comp Saty

OD, I think you and I might be of a similar vintage. I remember the dark days of the mid to late 60's, through the 70's and into the early 80's. Records, which no-one wanted, fell with us regularly being the victim of record which was set. Back then, while I admit we lived on what were then relatively recent past glories, we still had players which made you want to go to footy. Even with their evident flaws, we went to see the likes of Dillon and Parke, who made your heart jump with one effort, only to break the same heart with the next. We had the likes of Hardeman, Alves, Wells, who followed on from Tassie Johnson, Vagg, Hassa et al, as they ended the twilight of their careers. As dismal as things were back then, we had blokes who could play footy and for whom the jumper meant something. Not too mention the beer and the pies were at a reasonable price back then. Our spirits were substantially lifted in the late 80's and much of the 90's. We had a real reason to go to the footy back then.

But in this day and age when footy is really just a business, with little, if any room for sentiment, other than the corporate dollar, the only thing that sustains any footy club is it supporters - MEMBERS. As such, I consider myself a shareholder in this industry they call the AFL. And for my years of investment, I am not sure how much longer I can wait for a fully franked dividend. That said, my hand will again go in my pocket in 2015.

But I say to team at the MFC, just consider how much longer the 'market' will continue to float you, if you keep serving up that tripe, week in and week out. As PJ said at the start of the season, the MFC had for too long betrayed the members trust and that trust had to be earned again. The incalculable in all this is, how much longer will the "market" wait? Time to stand up guys. It ain't just going to happen.

[PaulRB 6,354]

After all the crap Neeld has had directed at him, Roo's has only manage a couple of wins better.

As they say, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear...

Its the players...

Edited August 4, 2014 by PaulRB

[Ethan Tremblay 30,838]

After all the crap Neeld has had directed at him, Roo's has only manage a couple of wins better.

As they say, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear...

Its the players...

At the same time, Neeld was [censored] hated by the playing group and was adding to our already bad culture.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

Trenners is certainly not a failure:

2014 stats, and this was with carrying his foot injury which (hopefully) made him be as slow as he was. He was (i believe) even better his first few seasons.

He is a 22 year old mid/utility with these averages who has played 80 odd games and people want to flick him off to the other clubs. Absolute rubbish.

He'd just end up another Stefan Martin.

Stat link:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-melbourne-demons--jack-trengove

For the lazy:

Disposals 22

Marks 5

Tackles 2

Edited August 4, 2014 by The Song Formerly Known As

[Satyriconhome 10,742]

Gee you're easily pleased. Dunn was woeful yesterday - the only one of our defenders to be clearly beaten. Riley & Kent do one nice thing and their next five contributions are shocking. Viney doesn't need an education, he needs to go and get the football. And none of which speaks to how bad the opposition were.

Our defence has clearly improved relative to 2013, but we are six forwards, four midfielders and a ruckman off being a finals team at present, and that assumes we don't lose any more free agents in the meantime.

I am not the only one, listen to Roos presser, he said the defence was solid, if the ball is coming in and the forward has hectares to lead into the only way you are going to stop them is fouling them, one on one Dunn and Jetta more than held their own, Viney needs the education, Roos says so, it will help him become a better player. That was my point about Riley and Kent (comprehension a bit beyond you), there is something to work with

Edited August 4, 2014 by Satyriconhome

[jackaub 1,402]

From 2007 to 2009 we were armed with the type of draft picks you can completely rebuild a list with.

10 top 20 draft picks in three years. Of course there are no guarantees but surely you can at least secure a few stars with that draft bounty.

Out of those 10 picks 8 have been failures. One has been a success (Grimes) and the other may or may not be (Trengove). Of the others Morton, Maric, Gysberts and Scully are gone, Tapscott, Blease and Strauss may join them this year and Watts has been an enormous disappointment.

How can you have a 20% (or less) success rate with so many high picks? It's absolutely baffling and it's one of the key reasons why we are where we are.

Watching us yesterday handle and use the ball like it was a pineapple just makes you shake your head at what could have been had we made the right decisions back then. Instead of a clutch of talented 23-24 year olds we are left with a gaping hole and a group of battlers who are not up to it.

As loyal supporters of this club we have been robbed.

I believe that we have had over 20 (22 rings a bell ) top 20 draft picks since 2007

How many of those have gone on with it We have wasted the opportunities presented to us

the question is why ?