Post Match Discussion - Round 16

[beelzebub 23,313]

I agree with wyl I reckon there are close to 20 out of our list of 40 that are not good enough and will not take us from the bottom four.

Unfortunately it is not possible to change 20 players and find better ones in one season.

It is probably going to take 2 - 3 years to achieve a list that can threaten the top eight.

There is a reason we cannot win games we don't have enough good players plain and simple IMO.

There's a perculiarly irrestible logic to that OD

Our team isnt good enough

A team is made of players

therefore a number or all of the players aren't good enough

Now we can however say that at least 10 or so are indeed good AFL standard

we can roundly suggest as many again either come and go or have potential to solidify into the afore mentioned group.

We have a list of a tad over 40 so if only 20 or thereabouts can be acquitted it must leave as many who can't be.

Kinda an extrapolation of What is...Is.....i. What isn't...ISN"T

[Gipsy Danger 1,067]

No, you are not getting away that easy, you have made the sweeping statement...........

back it up....which 20?....this means there are only 2 left from the last 2 games

Gonna be a sad looking team next year if we only have 2 seniors and the guys who played in the reserves and the injured on the list next year.

Why do so many here think that sacking everyone is the answer. That just leaves you with another 20 odd rookies that someone will want to sack this time next year.

[Satyriconhome 10,742]

WYL and OD, no matter, who are the 20?, any order will do

[Wiseblood 24,637]

I thought you only came on here to have a go at me, you seem to strongly deny the inadequacy however, my insults should be water of a duck's back to any of the well rounded posters on here, yet they don't seem to be

You can't read many posts if you can't see the denigration occurring, let's think what kind of constructive criticism is calling a player a spud

If it is a discussion forum, then I am allowed my own opinion, and my opinion of other's posts, I think that's what discussion means, discuss?

It also means I can come up with whatever theory I want, theorize?

WYL wants 20 delisted, I corrected myself, missed that?

Alright, I'll have a stab at 20 players on our list, currently, who aren't up to AFL standard IMO for us going forward. I may not make it to 20 but here it is:

Shannon Byrnes

Mitch Clisby

Sam Blease

James Strauss

Daniel Nicholson

Aiden Riley

Michael Evans

Luke Tapscott

Jake Spencer

Dean Terlich

Jack Fitzpatrick

I could also happily let Jordie McKenzie, Jayden Hunt and Ro Bail go as well and not really be worried about it, although Bail and McKenzie have at least showed something, and while I don't see anything in Hunt it is only his first year after all and that may be a little harsh.

That's 14 players. Reasoning? To me, and this is only my opinion, none of the above will help us not only reach the finals but our ultimate goal of a premiership. I know we can't delist that many in 1 season but we have so much dead wood on our list that it's infuriating. Players, particularly the younger types, are getting tired and need a break yet there is no one knocking on the door for regular selection in the magoos. This hurts badly and is reflected in our current results.

I like the direction we are heading in overall as a club, but WYL isn't that far off the mark.

[old dee 23,782]

I think you are missing the point HF.

I not sure anyone is saying 20 of Saturday's team of 22 have to go.

I am not.

But the simple fact is we are not even close to having a good list.

twenty of the list of 43 or whatever it is are not good enough.

[P-man 13,366]

I thought you only came on here to have a go at me, you seem to strongly deny the inadequacy however, my insults should be water of a duck's back to any of the well rounded posters on here, yet they don't seem to be

You can't read many posts if you can't see the denigration occurring, let's think what kind of constructive criticism is calling a player a spud

If it is a discussion forum, then I am allowed my own opinion, and my opinion of other's posts, I think that's what discussion means, discuss?

It also means I can come up with whatever theory I want, theorize?

WYL wants 20 delisted, I corrected myself, missed that?

Calling Demonland "a bunch of incredibly dumb people" isn't discussion, it is just insulting, and I'm yet to see you retract it. I won't be holding my breath.

I haven't seen any "spud" labels being thrown about in this thread either. If there was, I don't condone it, but with this many people I understand there is always going to be one or two who resort to that. It is against site rules and mods can deal with that as they see fit.

WYL mentioned 20 after you'd already deemed the Demonland consensus to be 30. So you corrected yourself after throwing out a false accusation to suit your insults. WYL is one poster, and he's entitled to his opinion. You are entitled to yours also, however generally your fallback position is the same: we're all gutless idiots, and Roos knows best so why bother discussing it.

Anyhow, I figured it would be pointless as your first instinct is to bite back, but hopefully you understand the broader point I was making. Enjoy your day, Saty.

[Gipsy Danger 1,067]

I think you are missing the point HF.

I not sure anyone is saying 20 of Saturday's team of 22 have to go.

I am not.

But the simple fact is we are not even close to having a good list.

twenty of the list of 43 or whatever it is are not good enough.

Someone must have said it. I got it off other posters quotes.

And I agree the list isn't anywhere near good enough.

My point is that if you just sack everyone, they need to be replaced and the replacements will just be more rookies who will be in way over their heads with too much expected of them and when they fail someone will be calling for them to be delisted.

As far as I can tell our list is full of players who were the replacements for the last lot of players who were delisted on mass. its a cycle that just doesn't want to end.

[Satyriconhome 10,742]

Alright, I'll have a stab at 20 players on our list, currently, who aren't up to AFL standard IMO for us going forward. I may not make it to 20 but here it is:

Shannon Byrnes

Mitch Clisby

Sam Blease

James Strauss

Daniel Nicholson

Aiden Riley

Michael Evans

Luke Tapscott

Jake Spencer

Dean Terlich

Jack Fitzpatrick

I could also happily let Jordie McKenzie, Jayden Hunt and Ro Bail go as well and not really be worried about it, although Bail and McKenzie have at least showed something, and while I don't see anything in Hunt it is only his first year after all and that may be a little harsh.

That's 14 players. Reasoning? To me, and this is only my opinion, none of the above will help us not only reach the finals but our ultimate goal of a premiership. I know we can't delist that many in 1 season but we have so much dead wood on our list that it's infuriating. Players, particularly the younger types, are getting tired and need a break yet there is no one knocking on the door for regular selection in the magoos. This hurts badly and is reflected in our current results.

I like the direction we are heading in overall as a club, but WYL isn't that far off the mark.

Hunt is injured and has been for last four weeks, seen a lot of him have you?

Byrnes not with us, but 2 premiership medals, must have had something?...he will be gone though

Riley cutting adrift after how many games of AFL?

Spencer was offered a new 2 year contract a couple of weeks ago by Roos, er?

The others are the usual suspects, me personally I have 3 on very shaky ground and 3 alone unless they do something in the next few weeks, and after talking to them, surprisingly all 3 know they are on the last chance, and it is only Tapscott who has lifted in the last couple of weeks

Tapscott

Strauss

Blease

But I am not a member of the Footy Dept so who knows?

Edited July 7, 2014 by Satyriconhome

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Hunt is injured and has been for last four weeks, seen a lot of him have you?

Byrnes not with us, but 2 premiership medals, must have had something?...he will be gone though

Riley cutting adrift after how many games of AFL?

Spencer was offered a new 2 year contract a couple of weeks ago by Roos, er?

The others are the usual suspects, me personally I have 3 on very shaky ground and 3 alone unless they do something in the next few weeks, and after talking to them, surprisingly all 3 know they are on the last chance, and it is only Tapscott who has lifted in the last couple of weeks

Tapscott

Strauss

Blease

But I am not a member of the Footy Dept so who knows?

What I've seen of Hunt hasn't filled me with confidence, but as I said it's harsh on him in his first year.

Byrnes is finished and you know it.

Riley has been given a few chances and can't get near it. Tough, yes. Skilled.... no.

Spencer got a new deal which he never should have been given.

I listed players that are not up to scratch for us as a club going forward. We don't need list cloggers anymore, and we finally have a FD that can make the right decisions this time in who can now come in and fill those gaps.

If you only have 3 players on shaky ground then you are delusional and I thank my lucky stars you have nothing to do with the FD. Our list, outside of a core number of players, is not up to it and most people are smart enough to see that. I want the best for my club and, while it's nothing personal, we have many players on our list who don't have the required talent and skill to take us forward in the direction we want to go.

[old dee 23,782]

Alright, I'll have a stab at 20 players on our list, currently, who aren't up to AFL standard IMO for us going forward. I may not make it to 20 but here it is:

Shannon Byrnes

Mitch Clisby

Sam Blease

James Strauss

Daniel Nicholson

Aiden Riley

Michael Evans

Luke Tapscott

Jake Spencer

Dean Terlich

Jack Fitzpatrick

I could also happily let Jordie McKenzie, Jayden Hunt and Ro Bail go as well and not really be worried about it, although Bail and McKenzie have at least showed something, and while I don't see anything in Hunt it is only his first year after all and that may be a little harsh.

That's 14 players. Reasoning? To me, and this is only my opinion, none of the above will help us not only reach the finals but our ultimate goal of a premiership. I know we can't delist that many in 1 season but we have so much dead wood on our list that it's infuriating. Players, particularly the younger types, are getting tired and need a break yet there is no one knocking on the door for regular selection in the magoos. This hurts badly and is reflected in our current results.

I like the direction we are heading in overall as a club, but WYL isn't that far off the mark.

Add Gawn, Barry, Toumpas, Michie, Evans to your list and like you I have serious doubts about Mckenzie.

There also others that are always found wanting when the going gets tough.

Like Watts and Howe

We are third last with four wins from fifteen games.

We are not much chop.

[Axis of Bob 11,767]

Calling Demonland "a bunch of incredibly dumb people" isn't discussion, it is just insulting.

The problem isn't that everyone is unintelligent, it's just that there is a culture of stupidity on the site that is a direct reflection of those that post the most on it.

Generally the best posters on Demonland post less frequently (with a few notable exceptions).

[beelzebub 23,313]

Add Gawn, Barry, Toumpas, Michie, Evans to your list and like you I have serious doubts about Mckenzie.

There also others that are always found wanting when the going gets tough.

Like Watts and Howe

We are third last with four wins from fifteen games.

We are not much chop.

Id go as far to include an unfit Trengove and the current state of play Grimes

[beelzebub 23,313]

Hunt is injured and has been for last four weeks, seen a lot of him have you?

Byrnes not with us, but 2 premiership medals, must have had something?...he will be gone though

Riley cutting adrift after how many games of AFL?

Spencer was offered a new 2 year contract a couple of weeks ago by Roos, er?

The others are the usual suspects, me personally I have 3 on very shaky ground and 3 alone unless they do something in the next few weeks, and after talking to them, surprisingly all 3 know they are on the last chance, and it is only Tapscott who has lifted in the last couple of weeks

Tapscott

Strauss

Blease

But I am not a member of the Footy Dept so who knows?

You seem to miss the gist sometimes Saty

it matter not what Byrnes may have been , currently hes not a player that will take us further and its this notation as applies to many a poster's view on the list that its not just good enough to be good enough, we have to be better than we are.

[P-man 13,366]

Alright, I'll have a stab at 20 players on our list, currently, who aren't up to AFL standard IMO for us going forward. I may not make it to 20 but here it is:

Shannon Byrnes

Mitch Clisby

Sam Blease

James Strauss

Daniel Nicholson

Aiden Riley

Michael Evans

Luke Tapscott

Jake Spencer

Dean Terlich

Jack Fitzpatrick

I could also happily let Jordie McKenzie, Jayden Hunt and Ro Bail go as well and not really be worried about it, although Bail and McKenzie have at least showed something, and while I don't see anything in Hunt it is only his first year after all and that may be a little harsh.

That's 14 players. Reasoning? To me, and this is only my opinion, none of the above will help us not only reach the finals but our ultimate goal of a premiership. I know we can't delist that many in 1 season but we have so much dead wood on our list that it's infuriating. Players, particularly the younger types, are getting tired and need a break yet there is no one knocking on the door for regular selection in the magoos. This hurts badly and is reflected in our current results.

I like the direction we are heading in overall as a club, but WYL isn't that far off the mark.

The problem with the above list is that only Terlich played on the weekend. Bail and Jordie as well if we include your maybe pile (these two are in the definitely pile for mine). Some tough calls will need to be made. 15-20 might be a ballpark figure, but regardless we are looking at another 2-3 years for Roos and co to shape the list.

I'd like to say there will be a greater focus on drafting players who can kick, but that approach has landed us in hot water as well (Strauss, Toumpas (for the moment)..). An ability to win their own ball remains crucial. That has been the Port mantra and it has served them well. If we can land two top end midfielders in the draft, this will be an important addition to the core group.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

The problem with the above list is that only Terlich played on the weekend. Bail and Jordie as well if we include your maybe pile (these two are in the definitely pile for mine). Some tough calls will need to be made. 15-20 might be a ballpark figure, but regardless we are looking at another 2-3 years for Roos and co to shape the list.

I'd like to say there will be a greater focus on drafting players who can kick, but that approach has landed us in hot water as well (Strauss, Toumpas (for the moment)..). An ability to win their own ball remains crucial. That has been the Port mantra and it has served them well. If we can land two top end midfielders in the draft, this will be an important addition to the core group.

Very true, and I guess my point is that because of this we lack a great deal of depth within the side at the minute. Clearly someone like Salem needs a rest, Dom Barry is not really ready etc. but we don't have the cattle to replace them right now. We need more depth and we need better overall footballers on our list to put pressure on our current 22 and to help improve our fortunes. I don't see anybody down at Casey right now that has the ability to do that.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Very true, and I guess my point is that because of this we lack a great deal of depth within the side at the minute. Clearly someone like Salem needs a rest, Dom Barry is not really ready etc. but we don't have the cattle to replace them right now. We need more depth and we need better overall footballers on our list to put pressure on our current 22 and to help improve our fortunes. I don't see anybody down at Casey right now that has the ability to do that.

simply this.

Footy smarts first. The ability to jump and touch a tag, the ability to run between cones, the general hype of the 'beep' ...second...all a clear second to the ability to understand how to play this game.

I thought it close to laughable that Buckley had to implement his kicking assessment into the draft camp..Its like an after thought...oh yeah, can you kick a footy. The game IS football !!

[robbiefrom13 887]

Development may still result in big improvement. It wouldn't be unprecedented, especially with Roos.

One problem for us is that we don't have a critical mass of players who have a lot of experience of being in the zone with the team on fire. Difficult to graft more in when there isn't that basis.

Another problem is that we are a team that until this year simply couldn't rack up possessions; as a result of which, we are not experienced in making the play, and we don't have the confidence that is built on experience of being on top; when we get the ball, we are too slow, too protective of what we've achieved; not necessarily because we are useless, but because we don't instantly lock into the killer instinct, seeing the goals in front of us, and spreading and so on.. We don't have it programmed in as a default. Federer knew he could probably pull out another ace, last night. Almost got enough. But poor old MFC, it can't remember playing aces, and it doesn't try for them.

We need to graft out some wins, and slowly build some form and confidence. When our players one day have the right stuff in their minds, their legs will go faster, and the teleological effect will draw the kicks to carry to team-mates or through the goals; we'll get the free kicks, too. Roos is skilled for getting this to happen. But not until then will we really be able to see who actually hasn't got it. It's about belief as much as it is about anything else.

Just an opinion, of course.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,203]

Yes but it is just footy, nobody dies, I invest heavily in the Club, but I don't feel the need to denigrate players who go out at the weekend and give it their best shot, unfortunately in some cases their best is not good enough at the moment

Roos will decide if anybody doesn't deserve a game next week, unfortunately we don't have many replacements demanding to be picked, so Roos is experiencing the same frustrations as we are

We have all played footy, but I assume none have ever reached AFL level, so we have no idea what is required to play at that level

Mate if all you expect from players is they do their best and give them a pat on the back maybe you should go and watch the ammo's - this is professional sport with different standards and expectations and players are rewarded for their efforts so its not as if we're haranguing a bunch of guys just playing for the love of the game. I don't agree with hanging over the fence lambasting players but I think some venting on a footy forum that most players will never see shouldn't be an issue.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Dr. Gonzo

[dazzledavey36 54,454]

Mate if all you expect from players is they do their best and give them a pat on the back maybe you should go and watch the ammo's - this is professional sport with different standards and expectations and players are rewarded for their efforts so its not as if we're haranguing a bunch of guys just playing for the love of the game. I don't agree with hanging over the fence lambasting players but I think some venting on a footy forum that most players will never see shouldn't be an issue.

Oh but remember he tells the players at training that theres a website called demonland and all we do is critize the players.

Edited July 7, 2014 by dazzledavey36

[rpfc 28,286]

Our list is in an awful state relative to even middling teams.

The last couple of drafts/trade weeks have helped comparatively immensely but we don't have a healthy list yet - and we won't for a few years yet.

With that said - you don't get rid of every 'non-AFL standard' player that you have on the list - you would be picking at 104, 105, 106, and 107 while every other club has gone home and you will most likely be delisting those 'talents' two years down the track.

We need to keep those that are showing something and allow Roos to mould them into capable role players (Jetta and Pedersen), use their capital to get capable professionals (Sylvia for Vince), or trading for talent and value (ND2 for Tyson and Salem).

Outside of that, you just have to manage their exit over multiple off seasons so that we don't have to take more than 6 or 7 players in the National Draft. Any more than that and you are just giving a 2 year contract to very speculative teenagers (any new players to the ND get automatic 2 year deals).

So we have 20 players who are currently not AFL-standard (I would argue that would be a conservative number) but that does not mean they won't get to be AFL standard players OR that you remove them in one or even two off seasons...

3, 5, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 26, 27, 29, 32, 33, 35, 37, 41, 42, 43, 45, 46, 47 and 48 would struggle to get a game in a middling team in the AFL as they are a kid or just not good enough. That is 24 players on a list of 44...

[old dee 23,782]

I cannot find much to argue with there rpfc.

You have nailed it.

[Red and Blue Flame 179]

Alright, I'll have a stab at 20 players on our list, currently, who aren't up to AFL standard IMO for us going forward. I may not make it to 20 but here it is:

Shannon Byrnes

Mitch Clisby

Sam Blease

James Strauss

Daniel Nicholson

Aiden Riley

Michael Evans

Luke Tapscott

Jake Spencer

Dean Terlich

Jack Fitzpatrick

I could also happily let Jordie McKenzie, Jayden Hunt and Ro Bail go as well and not really be worried about it, although Bail and McKenzie have at least showed something, and while I don't see anything in Hunt it is only his first year after all and that may be a little harsh.

That's 14 players. Reasoning? To me, and this is only my opinion, none of the above will help us not only reach the finals but our ultimate goal of a premiership. I know we can't delist that many in 1 season but we have so much dead wood on our list that it's infuriating. Players, particularly the younger types, are getting tired and need a break yet there is no one knocking on the door for regular selection in the magoos. This hurts badly and is reflected in our current results.

I like the direction we are heading in overall as a club, but WYL isn't that far off the mark.

You can delist as many as you like, if you trade for draft picks (get two picks for one player kind of thing).

Obviously probably won't/hasn't happened before, but i think when Neeld first came in or his second season we had 10 + list changes.

[beelzebub 23,313]

somehow some miss the bleeding obvious in intent

Some of us are saying ha;lf the list ist kaput

No one expects to be able to churn 20 players. There is even the outside chance a few to a handful of those 20 ( condemned ) may suddenly wake up tomorrow or the next day or season and become half decent players ( or they may not )

Some are on the protected species list as either cruios of the FD or given a pass through contracture. Doesnt change that this list is far from able to pursue its ideal...and there IS only ONE . Premierships.

We have in the past ( very recently in fact ) delisted 12. Id suspect wed go close to this again..9-10 followed by same the next season. And keep doing it til the list is where it needs to be

[Wiseblood 24,637]

somehow some miss the bleeding obvious in intent

Some of us are saying ha;lf the list ist kaput

No one expects to be able to churn 20 players. There is even the outside chance a few to a handful of those 20 ( condemned ) may suddenly wake up tomorrow or the next day or season and become half decent players ( or they may not )

Some are on the protected species list as either cruios of the FD or given a pass through contracture. Doesnt change that this list is far from able to pursue its ideal...and there IS only ONE . Premierships.

We have in the past ( very recently in fact ) delisted 12. Id suspect wed go close to this again..9-10 followed by same the next season. And keep doing it til the list is where it needs to be

Spot on 'bub, and we all know that we won't delist/trade THAT many players. It's a process that will take 2-3 years to do, but the point is that our list is still light on for talent and, while we have a gameplan and FD that is FAR better than what we've had previously, we still need to re-shape the list to get it up to pace with the rest of the competition.

[deesrule 104]

A little nugget from Roos last week where he feels that the players that come from TAC are skilful offensively but lack the AFL requirement of defence. All the good teams leave their players in the seconds for long periods of time to develop this side of their game. Maybe , just maybe the Tapscott, Bleases and now JKH are there to learn and not as some on here would say with their cards marked.

Other player such as Watts have the general skill but not the endurance as shown by his inability to run out games in Darwin.

These players don't gain as much by being in the seconds and are better played in the firsts with more breaks.

"Success is best measured by how far you have come with the talents you have been given." RDB