Time to Flick Casey Scorps

[picket fence 16,999]

Yep, time to part ways!

I can remember the first seeds of discontent started a few years ago with the recruitment of Brendon Fevola. The Dees admin of the time were furious that the Scorps had recruited him based on the potentiality for conflict of interest issues regarding the on field comprimises that might ensue regarding the grooming of our players.. I think quite a few issues with this alignment has arisen and some are still possibly being played out.

I believe it costs in the vicinity of 250-500 a season to field a stand alone team. For that, what you get far outweigh the negatives.

For a start you get to put all your own people into key positions from Coaches to Boot Studders!

If a ground issue is a reason for staying put then surely the Dees can work straight through Casey Council and renegotiate a ground tenacy agreement!

If no such problems arise then I have 2 solutions regarding where to play.

1 As a curtain raiser to Main game ( just like the good old days) OR

2 Punt Rd which has been extensively redeveloped. I'm sure Richmond would be receptive if some financial inducements were made!

Imagine playing an 11.00 am game or whenever it would be 3 hours before a Melbourne home game at the "G" then taking a casual stroll across to the "G" to watch the main game!

I say lets get fair dinkum and make it all Melbourne!!

It really is the recipe for success!

[monoccular 17,409]

I have said in a couple of other posts that I think "sending players down" to Casey is becoming almost toxic. They are heading from a progressing positive learning environment, even though not winning, to a losing environment at Casey.

But I am uncertain of the costs and practicalities of fielding a stand alone team - I will leave that to the experts NB Peter Jackson

Edited June 23, 2014 by monoccular

[Ted Lasso 19,191]

we don't have the money to do it imo,

if we did it would be great for the club but i can't see how we could, our goal is to break even in 2014, we don't have 500-600k spare

[T-34 409]

Many seem to forget that we signed a long term contract ( 30 years iirc ) with Casey.

Before we all jump up and down about the way to go, be aware that Box Hill won the VFL flag with a similar arrangement to what we have with Casey.

Perhaps we should try working harder to improve both clubs before we look to spend the kind of money we don't have to break away.

We have hardly been an ideal partner for them either, making finals and withdrawing all AFL listed players for surgery etc. is not the actions of a caring, sharing partner.

Knee jerk reaction at best.

[drdrake 3,156]

Can someone please tell me what is the difference between a stand alone MFC team to what we have at Casey at present?

My understanding is all Melbourne listed players are playing in the ones besides 1 International player that will be gone at years end.

It seems that Casey are playing the same game plan as Melbourne and players are being played in the positions that I think Melbourne are dictating to them.

Even if we have a stand alone VFL team we still need 10-15 VFL players to top up our team.

Our biggest problem with Casey is the MFC players down there aren't good enough. We may have 3-5 that have any chance of playing regular AFL Footy, the rest are there until they get delisted. From Saturday the only blokes that have a chance to be regular AFL footballers IMO are Toumpas, JKH, Gawn and Mitchie. We have a couple developing that it is a little early to make a call but not many.

Add this to the VFL Casey players being average it gives you an Average team.

The years of premiership glory with Sandy and the finals with Casey where built around strong VFL players and borderline AFL players.

[Bossdog 2,002]

The problem is that Casey is broke.....A lot of very good VFL players left the club and now the VFL players are very young coming from players that didn't get drafted and just out of junior leagues

[demonoid 317]

It seems to me that a lot of blokes playing at casey that are mfc listed are having their development severely hindered. Watched a little bit on abc on the weekend and jimmy t looked a dejected man. I know many here have their opinions on him but you would hope the direction he is being given is positive. I'm not convinced it is.

[praha 11,226]

Casey is an awful club in an awful area that the club got wrong.

What made the club think that just because an area has a booming population that people will flock to Melbourne? I'd have that that demographic and region would be focused on the Saints and Pies.

Easier said than done to get out, though. But I have been down there once and don't ever intend to return. What was the club thinking!?

[Machsy 2,858]

"Potentiality"..??

[MadAsHell 4,212]

Problem with having a stand alone VFL team is that we not only would have to come up with the 500K to field the team, but we then need to pay for more coaches & probably at least a dozen VFL players to top the team up. Plus then we'd need to come up with where we can play the games. I wouldn't want to be paying any money into Richmond's pockets. If you did form our own team I'd ratehr play out of Victoria Park and just pay City of Yarra for use of the ground.

Anyway the issue Casey have, as mnay have pointed out is that they're broke due to a failed pokies venture and have lost a lot of their better VFL listed players. In the last few years they'e lost the like of Fevola, Wall, Stockdale, Lees, Silvagni, Faulks, Mohr, Tynan (The Luke variety), Matthews, Nicholls & Collins just to name a few and I've probably forgotten several others. Add onto that Melbourne have next to zero key position players available at the moment for them and it's no wonder Casey are struggling to kick goals, prevent them and run out games.

I'm in the middle of building a house next to the ground, so personally I don't want to see the alignment end. Instead I'd love to see the clubs work closer together to help eachother improve and become top teams in eachother's respective competitions. Perhaps players (young and mature age) Melbourne are looking at recruiting they can suggest spend a year at Casey so they can keep a closer eye on them and other joint plans to help build a strong relationship into the future. Casey is one of the Country's major growth corridors, so I'd hate to see the club give up a great footing only to allow another club to swoop in and take advantage of and create a real presence there. Ala giving up first rights to the old Glasshouse to Collingwood.

[What 18,810]

the AFL should fund a standalone reserves side for every AFL team that doesn't have one

If they care about the standard of footy that is

[old dee 23,699]

The problem is not Casey it is the quality of players both MFC and Casey.

We are a bottom four side with a bottom four list, the majority of our players playing at Casey currently are hardly world beaters.

Add the kids Casey provide and you have a average side.

Would it be any different if we had our own reserves side?

I seriously doubt it.

We would have the same ordinary MFC players plus we would have to find and pay another twenty or so players.

The simple fact is we have an ordinary list and cannot afford to field our own side.

[Satyriconhome 10,675]

Yep, time to part ways!

I can remember the first seeds of discontent started a few years ago with the recruitment of Brendon Fevola. The Dees admin of the time were furious that the Scorps had recruited him based on the potentiality for conflict of interest issues regarding the on field comprimises that might ensue regarding the grooming of our players.. I think quite a few issues with this alignment has arisen and some are still possibly being played out.

I believe it costs in the vicinity of 250-500 a season to field a stand alone team. For that, what you get far outweigh the negatives.

For a start you get to put all your own people into key positions from Coaches to Boot Studders!

If a ground issue is a reason for staying put then surely the Dees can work straight through Casey Council and renegotiate a ground tenacy agreement!

If no such problems arise then I have 2 solutions regarding where to play.

1 As a curtain raiser to Main game ( just like the good old days) OR

2 Punt Rd which has been extensively redeveloped. I'm sure Richmond would be receptive if some financial inducements were made!

Imagine playing an 11.00 am game or whenever it would be 3 hours before a Melbourne home game at the "G" then taking a casual stroll across to the "G" to watch the main game!

I say lets get fair dinkum and make it all Melbourne!!

It really is the recipe for success!

I assume if you are going to send this suggestion the Club that you will have your cheque book ready to assist

a. for the cost of the extra players we would need for a standalone side

b. to pay Richmond the 'inducement'

c. to pay the MCG staff for the extra hour they have to be on duty, killing our gate receipts

[Slartibartfast 17,096]

I assume if you are going to send this suggestion the Club that you will have your cheque book ready to assist

a. for the cost of the extra players we would need for a standalone side

b. to pay Richmond the 'inducement'

c. to pay the MCG staff for the extra hour they have to be on duty, killing our gate receipts

Saty I think too much is made of the cost of a stand alone team.

Peter Jackson has come out and said our core business is football and we need to get it right. I've only seen a couple of Casey games but it appeared to me that the Casey stand alone players are not up to it. That means the structures MFC players are trying to put in place don't stand up and it's therefore difficult to develop those standards and systems.

As far as I know we will have a total turnover of around 40 million this year as a club. Half a million dollars is 1.25% of total turnover. Let's call it 2.5% to deflect any mathematical argument. If footy is our core business and the Casey alliance is hurting us then for 2.5% of turnover it can be fixed. The club must look to raise these funds or cut costs in other areas.

If Casey is not a problem and we could get more benefit spending the money where it is or elsewhere then Casey remains. Jackson and Roos will have a much better idea than us what the right outcome is but I find it very hard to believe it's the dollars.

My belief is the best result for MFC would be to play our own team out of Punt Road. Those not wanting to put $$ into RFC miss the point entirely.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Before this year Casey was frequent top 4 team. Yes, their finals record was appalling but is it really much different having Casey listed players as opposed to Melbourne reserves listed players?

[DeeSpencer 25,383]

Where is this understanding that Richmond will let us play at their training ground. Not to mention do the VFL listed guys that we recruit end up training at Gosch's at 6pm, are there even lights?

Miller and Allison are at the Casey games. Even if Welsh is giving different instruction (and I don't believe he is) then the players have 2 coaches on hand overseeing things.

Casey are in a rebuilding stage. They went broke (or close to) and now don't have any good VFL players.

I'd like to watch our VFL team play. But I wonder if going it alone and scuttling Casey is worth. I'd rather see us double down with Casey and help invest in them as a mutual venture. Both clubs are down, both clubs should now work together. The days of Casey signing Fev are as far removed as us pulling all our players from finals.

If we do go down the stand alone VFL path then I'm listening and keen to here ideas. But some magic plan to move in to Punt road like it will just be all fine to happen, I'm not convinced on that.

We'd actually have better luck sharing with Collingwood at Vic Park I would've thought than Punt Road. The only benefit for Richmond would be money and they'd probably charge a lot to use their facilities in which they train at full time and play a VFL game at every second week.

[drdrake 3,156]

Before this year Casey was frequent top 4 team. Yes, their finals record was appalling but is it really much different having Casey listed players as opposed to Melbourne reserves listed players?

Casey was a top 4 team and we were fairly close to the worst team in the competition. Now we are approaching being that 12-14 place team with a VFL team that is struggling. We cleaned out a lot of players that weren't AFL standard but very good at VFL level, now we have still some players that will be cleaned out and others are developing. We are starting to use the VFL like other clubs have for many years, pure development with little scoreboard focus. Each player from what I've heard is told what they need to work on, they are moved around into different positions to make them work on their weak areas.

[poita 3,889]

Given that MFC listed players fill the best players list each week, it seems logical that is the Casey listed players are not up to scratch. I'm not saying that the MFC players are superstars, but most of them have shown over a number of years that they are good to very good players at that level.

How much are the top VFL players on? Surely the MFC can chip in the funds for Casey to go and buy some decent players for a fraction of the cost of running our own side. A key forward, a key defender and a Magner/Couch type in the middle would be enough to make the side competitive for starters.

[JV7 2,350]

To be fair to casey, they did lose a lot of good vfl footballers then add into it the likes of manger, couch, Davis and hogan from last year. Most of the MFC listed players are young kids learning the ropes, hence casey last qrt fade outs each week. I'd love a stand alone VFL side, it just makes sense. Plus playing every 2nd week out at the cold and windswept casey fields wouldn't be ideal for the players

Edited June 23, 2014 by JV7

[T-34 409]

Is the real focus winning or development?

I would of thought the latter is more important to us right now, with the knock on effect eventually being the former.

[deanox 9,894]

the AFL should fund a standalone reserves side for every AFL team that doesn't have one

If they care about the standard of footy that is

I agree with this.

There needs to be a single 2nd tier competition across the AFL. At the moment the best 380 players play in the AFL each week (the other AFL players are developing and have the potential to be better than some other players).

The next best 400 are spread across 35+ teams (16 VFL teams, 9 WAFL teams, 10 SANFL teams and some in the other states).

A second tier competition should bring the next best 400 together. It will cost more to run but it would lift the standard of the AFL astronomically.

Kids would develop against the best. There would be more incentive to pay the best plays and let kids develop at tier two. More "late bloomers" will get de deponent and exposure to the system.

Stand alone WAFL teams have a salary cap of 280k, I imagine others are similar.

There may be an increase in costs of flights, support staff and some increase in wages but instead of showing the money across 35 teams why doesn't the money get directed to a single reserves competition.

I assume the main problem is still the Victorian centric nature of a reserves competition. But we need to do something to bridge the gap.

Edited June 23, 2014 by deanox

[Adzman 2,154]

Casey have made 7 finals series in a row................not a bad effort. Melbourne hasn't played finals for about that long, so If you want a chance at a flag you are better off pulling on a Scorps jumper than a dees jumper based on what both sides have produced over the past decade.

Like all VFL clubs, you can turn it around. Give them a couple of years to rebuild, I think it will work out okay for both clubs.

[Nasher 33,607]

I agree with this.

There needs to be a single 2nd tier competition across the AFL. At the moment the best 380 players play in the AFL each week (the other AFL players are developing and have the potential to be better than some other players).

The next best 400 are spread across 35+ teams (16 VFL teams, 9 WAFL teams, 10 SANFL teams and some in the other states).

A second tier competition should bring the next best 400 together. It will cost more to run but it would lift the standard of the AFL astronomically.

Kids would develop against the best. There would be more incentive to pay the best plays and let kids develop at tier two. More "late bloomers" will get de deponent and exposure to the system.

Stand alone WAFL teams have a salary cap of 280k, I imagine others are similar.

There may be an increase in costs of flights, support staff and some increase in wages but instead of showing the money across 35 teams why doesn't the money get directed to a single reserves competition.

I assume the main problem is still the Victorian centric nature of a reserves competition. But we need to do something to bridge the gap.

How do you convince the Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney top up players to travel every second weekend to play after a full week of work?

How do the Sydney and Brisbane teams get sufficient quality local players to be able to compete with the Vic, SA and WA sides, who would have a much bigger talent pool to choose from?

[beelzebub 23,312]

Deanox...nice idea but unworkabe, financially let alone other reasons

[KC from Casey 7,057]

The Casey affiliation is predicated on the MFC gaining a presence in one of the fastest growing residential corridors to develop a new supporter base for one of the competition's least supported sides. This is a long term project and involves a substantial amount of input by the AFL partner but I don't see that the MFC is willing to commit wholeheartedly. The Scorpions don't have the money and as a result the quality of their home grown locals is simply not of a standard necessary to support the MFC players.

In short, Melbourne needs to decide whether it will take its VFL affiliate seriously and commit to bringing some quality VFL standard players to complement the team so that the whole organisation is strong a la Box Hill vis a vis Hawthorn or give up the project and field a team at Punt Road or Toorak Park for the convenience of the few hundred fans who might follow a second team.

I sense that the end result will be that Casey will fold in the same way as Bendigo Gold whose demise was announced today - Decision made on Bendigo's future.