Training - Wednesday 27th November, 2013

[Hannibal 5,814]

What's your point?

I agreed with a poster a couple of pages ago who said Toumpas' lack of contested possessions dating back to junior level would have been a concern to recruiters. I agreed. He didn't have many crosses against his name, but if there was one, this was it.

Some posters, like Steve, don't think it's important, whereas I happen to. You can please yourself.

Clear enough ?

[Demonsterative 1,948]

Now it's clear. Ill rate Toumpas on his development in the coming years. As I said, in his junior year he was injured so the stats may have lied.

If there is a question on the Toump, it's the clubs ability to develop young players.

[binman 38,441]

I see some similarities between Salem and the Toump - and not just looks. In the Pick Me video in the HUN and in his post drafting interview with Burgs he mentions the importance he places on learning a number of times. An impressive thing to be focused on and something that no doubt is super appealing to clubs these days and Roos as well. I get the same vibe from the Toump.

The Toump seems super motivated to get better and i suspect he would not need to be told that in today's footy all players need to be able to win their share of clearances. No doubt he'll work on it

I suspect both Salem and the Toump will flourish under Roos and the improved development at the club (at least i'm hoping it will be improved).

[rjay 23,923]

I agreed with a poster a couple of pages ago who said Toumpas' lack of contested possessions dating back to junior level would have been a concern to recruiters. I agreed. He didn't have many crosses against his name, but if there was one, this was it.

Some posters, like Steve, don't think it's important, whereas I happen to. You can please yourself.

Clear enough ?

'Ben', do you know if the stats included his senior year in the SANFL when he featured in the finals. It would be interesting to get the figures for that year. His last year at the carnival he was injured and didn't have as good a senior year as it was interrupted.

He was highly regarded by Jack Viney from all reports and Jack had played footy with him in SA. I couldn't imagine Jack being a rap for someone who didn't get his own ball nor could I imagine Todd picking him.

[Don24 103]

You're missing the point. Toumpas contested ball winning percentages were too low at junior level. Recruiters like 30% to be a minimum benchmark and Toumpas was the lowest of all highly ranked mids at 22. Cale Morton was another from his year that was very low in contested ball winning ability. This year it was Aish and interestingly he slipped out of the top 3 where he'd comfortably sat all year. And I'd say he fell due to his poor contested ball winning percentage.

We need Toumpas to hurt on the outside with his beautifully weighted passes and to also win contested footy. It's an area he needs to improve. He knows it and the coaches know it.

Wow Ben Hur has learnt to read the same useless Herald Sun article everyone else has, only we dont preach stats from a sun article and pretend we know what we are talking about.

[Machsy 2,858]

We? Speak for yourself - I do it all the time!

Would also be interested in whether it includes SANFL stats, as rjay asked, as I think it would unfairly slant them based on his role at SANFL level and how they chose to use him, i.e. consistently on the outside, using his pace to punish the opposition in transition.

[jnrmac 19,046]

If everyone wins contests consistently then you have 22 players consistently beating 22 opposition players and winning every week.

Now why would you want that?

NB: I don't want to derail another training thread but it's a good discussion that could perhaps be continued elsewhere.

Well for a start every contest is not contested. You need to be able to hurt teams on turnovers, quick delivery and keeping possession of the ball.

[mdemonski2 403]

Whatever, as long as you are always right, the top 10 this year as in every year was know from way out.....

Ben Hur is always right. Just ask him. I am just glad us mere mortals get to read his posts on demonland.

Agree with you Sat. After all the afl draft writer picked the top 13 all in order, so top 5 consensus is pretty easy to pick.

[deeflating 26]

Wow what the hell is wrong with this place. I used to love reading demonland for the reports and occasional insightful discussion, now one of the few posters who provides that in Ben-Hur (I don't care if his online persona is arrogant - it's an online forum) is being ridiculed for suggesting Toumpas needs to work on his contested ball rate? Of course recruiters would have identified that as an area for improvement, but clearly he has enough valuable assets to make him worthy of a top 5 pick.

I promised myself I wouldn't waste time posting here, but I suppose I'm holding out hope that people will stop using this place as a way to fight to protect their fragile identities from the "nasty arrogant poster" and realise it's an online forum for footy discussion. Grow a pair and stop being so damn precious so i don't have to wade through pages of cyber-fragile-ego-nursing tripe just to find a solitary insightful comment.

Anyway, Go Dees...?

[Jarka 767]

Contested possession statistics can be very misleading, a player picking the ball up off the ground with an opposition player within a couple of meters counts as one. That can be argued as not being contested, I always take that stat with a grain of salt. I think clearances and 1%'s are more important, but that's just me and I wouldn't try to force my opinions down other peoples throats.

At u/18 level Toumpas was restricted with hip issues and he missed a big chunk of his first pre-season due to the surgery, this isn't an excuse it's a fact.

[Arrow 1,257]

Wow what the hell is wrong with this place. I used to love reading demonland for the reports and occasional insightful discussion, now one of the few posters who provides that in Ben-Hur (I don't care if his online persona is arrogant - it's an online forum) is being ridiculed for suggesting Toumpas needs to work on his contested ball rate? Of course recruiters would have identified that as an area for improvement, but clearly he has enough valuable assets to make him worthy of a top 5 pick.

I promised myself I wouldn't waste time posting here, but I suppose I'm holding out hope that people will stop using this place as a way to fight to protect their fragile identities from the "nasty arrogant poster" and realise it's an online forum for footy discussion. Grow a pair and stop being so damn precious so i don't have to wade through pages of cyber-fragile-ego-nursing tripe just to find a solitary insightful comment.

Anyway, Go Dees...?

You criticise people for ridiculing him, than tell people to grow a pair stop being so precious with their fragile egos.. You do know what irony is don't you?

Either way, I am completely against this rubbish 30% notion. This year Leigh Montagna, Dustin Martin and Brent Harvey just to name a few had a 30% or worse uncontested to contested possession ratios.

Toumpas further in his first 4 games of AFL had 30 touches with only 1 contested possession. After he was dropped, for the remaining games of the year his ratio was above this '30%' ratio quoted. Playing in the worst Melbourne team in AFL history, in his first year, against men.

The stat is irrelevant, and removing his first games in AFL, he passes said stat regardless.

[Hannibal 5,814]

You criticise people for ridiculing him, than tell people to grow a pair stop being so precious with their fragile egos.. You do know what irony is don't you?

Either way, I am completely against this rubbish 30% notion. This year Leigh Montagna, Dustin Martin and Brent Harvey just to name a few had a 30% or worse uncontested to contested possession ratios.

Toumpas further in his first 4 games of AFL had 30 touches with only 1 contested possession. After he was dropped, for the remaining games of the year his ratio was above this '30%' ratio quoted. Playing in the worst Melbourne team in AFL history, in his first year, against men.

The stat is irrelevant, and removing his first games in AFL, he passes said stat regardless.

The stat is a benchmark for AFL recruiters, who closely study junior footy.

You best tell them it's a stat they shouldn't worry about. I'm sure they'll be relieved.

[Arrow 1,257]

The stat is a benchmark for AFL recruiters, who closely study junior footy.

You best tell them it's a stat they shouldn't worry about. I'm sure they'll be relieved.

Lachie Whitfield is far more an outside player than Toumpas. Recruiters were certainly hiding from him Ben. Slid all the way down to 1!

[deeko 937]

Toumpas won't make A grade

He'll be a steady B-

Typical top 5 Melbourne recruit

Roost It I would be incredibly excited if one of our Top 5's actually got to a steady B-

[low flying Robbo 979]

What happens if a player gets himself into space all the time so that none of his possessions are contested...

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

i think alot of posters on here just disagree with ben-hur for the fun of an arguement, although i do not always agree with his posts, i do not agree with alot of peoples posts, but i think half the time people have a bit of an outdated view on football.

he agreed with a post about how toumpas needs to work on his inside game, and then all of a sudden from reading these posts toumpas has no need for improvement on his inside game but rather our team, he couldnt dominate due to injury and that somehow effected his inside game and the fact that a stat that was released by the herald sun and is clearly one used by the recruiters is a stupid stat.

the thing for me is that toumpas does not have the speed off the mark to be associated with a brad hill or isaac smith because they use their speed to get out of the congestion. in alot of his junior games people gave the footy to him because they knew he could kick it, and i am sure the mfc will do that aswell, but it does not mean that he doesnt need to work on his inside game.

he can kick the ball real good, his decision making is pretty solid, but his tackle pressure and inside game is what he needs to improve on and that is a fact

[rpfc 27,498]

You criticise people for ridiculing him, than tell people to grow a pair stop being so precious with their fragile egos.. You do know what irony is don't you?

Either way, I am completely against this rubbish 30% notion. This year Leigh Montagna, Dustin Martin and Brent Harvey just to name a few had a 30% or worse uncontested to contested possession ratios.

Toumpas further in his first 4 games of AFL had 30 touches with only 1 contested possession. After he was dropped, for the remaining games of the year his ratio was above this '30%' ratio quoted. Playing in the worst Melbourne team in AFL history, in his first year, against men.

The stat is irrelevant, and removing his first games in AFL, he passes said stat regardless.

That's interesting.

We have 4 players in the Top 100 Contested Possession winners in the AFL: Jones, Viney, Cross, and McKenzie. So Toumpas isn't really our problem here.

For those interested: Clisby, Vince, and Matt Jones are our only players in the Top 100 Uncontested Possession winners.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Well for a start every contest is not contested. You need to be able to hurt teams on turnovers, quick delivery and keeping possession of the ball.

Exactly right. The game is not that black and white. If a team needed a bunch of contested ball winners only, we'd be talking about a different game. There's way too much emphasis placed on the contested ball winning business.

The stat is a benchmark for AFL recruiters, who closely study junior footy.

You best tell them it's a stat they shouldn't worry about. I'm sure they'll be relieved.

They've told themselves that Ben. As Arrow has pointed out, there have been a number of mids drafted at number 1 who were never contested ball kings. Trav Johnston, Bryce Gibbs and Lachy Whitfield.

It may be a benchmark for certain players, but you're definitely making it out to be something far more important. Proof is in the pudding.

[rpfc 27,498]

i think alot of posters on here just disagree with ben-hur for the fun of an arguement

lol

[Hannibal 5,814]

It may be a benchmark for certain players, but you're definitely making it out to be something far more important. Proof is in the pudding.

I think comprehensions skills are severely lacking round here.

I also happen to think that getting uncontested possessions is crucial to a footballer's armoury. Running and spreading has never been more vital. Finding the footy is an underrated art.

Contested possessions is just one important element and certainly an area Toumpas needs to work on. But he'd know this even if others don't.

[rpfc 27,498]

Uncontested footy is the easier aspect to make quick progress in. If Roos can get some confidence into the midfield group and they spread and work hard, then things get easier for all concerned including a bloke in his second year.

Contested footy is a more individualistic trait in my opinion (you need others to help you get an UP, but not a CP), and harder to improve.

[What 18,810]

http://www.aflphotos.com.au/galleries/results/?q=collection:AFL%202013%20Training%20-%20Melbourne%20271113&image_id=308532

AFL photos were at the session

Check out the pic of Jesse Hogan pushing Brad Miller out of the way like he is nothing

[Biffen 12,342]

AFL photos were at the session

Check out the pic of Jesse Hogan pushing Brad Miller out of the way like he is nothing

[Arrow 1,257]

I think comprehensions skills are severely lacking round here.

I also happen to think that getting uncontested possessions is crucial to a footballer's armoury. Running and spreading has never been more vital. Finding the footy is an underrated art.

Contested possessions is just one important element and certainly an area Toumpas needs to work on. But he'd know this even if others don't.

Absolutely, there isn't a first going-on second year footballer who doesn't have an area he needs to work on.

Just don't think the alarm bells need to be ringing just yet, I can't wait to see him in a proper midfield, with leaders and established players around him, with a full AFL season under his belt.

He was never going to make a huge impact, there's a reason Rich, O'Meara, Wines, Palmer have had excellent first years, they're body ready. Jimmy, I don't think was.

[old dee 22,926]

That's interesting.

We have 4 players in the Top 100 Contested Possession winners in the AFL: Jones, Viney, Cross, and McKenzie. So Toumpas isn't really our problem here.

For those interested: Clisby, Vince, and Matt Jones are our only players in the Top 100 Uncontested Possession winners.

We don't seem to get the ball much rpfc