I will get shoot down ( load your guns).

I understand the notion of player responsibility and when players are outside the club and ingest anything they need to have care.

Justin Charles goes to a doctor outside Richmond Football club and gets caught - no sympathy - he got what he deserved.

I can't help but feel some sympathy for the Essendon players that were put on the program by club officials within the club environment. As a player I would have the expectation that anything that is club sanctioned (big disclaimer - unless they knew it was illegal) is safe and within the rules.

I have zero sympathy for the club itself and the administrators/coach - feed them to the lions.

Yep and the german athletes in the 70s are paying the price now. And it didn't help Raelene Boyle....

Its simple. You can have sympathy for their plight but they are guilty, they put their faith in the wrong people and they have had an advantage. They shouldbe dirty that their careers and possibly their long term health are affected but they are falling in line behind boy wonder. They are totally deluded.

If every athlete that blamed their coach got off for doing drugs then WADA wouldn't have one conviction or suspension, It has to be zero tolerance.

agree 100% jnrmac

Yep and the german athletes in the 70s are paying the price now. And it didn't help Raelene Boyle....

Its simple. You can have sympathy for their plight but they are guilty, they put their faith in the wrong people and they have had an advantage. They shouldbe dirty that their careers and possibly their long term health are affected but they are falling in line behind boy wonder. They are totally deluded.

If every athlete that blamed their coach got off for doing drugs then WADA wouldn't have one conviction or suspension, It has to be zero tolerance.

Absolutely Spot On JnrMac.

The WADA code is there for a reason. It must be adhered to or sport will die out.

I reckon it's pretty funny that the bombers did all these drugs and it still didn't make them good.

i bet bummers supporters can't wait for their hirdy "reward"

will be a good bookend for their asada "reward"

Rnd 23 will be a block buster...

That wont happen unless maybe they put another 1.5 million bucks on the desk for him to pick up on his way out.

To use an ironic turn of phrase, "whatever it takes."

How many mates is Hird going to burn because of his ego: Has gone on bomber tv to state he will be back for round 23. He doesn't care what this does to Bomber Thompson (his coaching mentor for 3 yrs) or the team on the eve of their season start? I don't care; may they end up 22/zip, but the gall of the man!

Hard to understand why EFC is standing behind one club champion (Hird) while seemingly prepared to jettison another (Bomber). You have to wonder what Hird has over people – they can’t all be mesmerized by him. Will someone eventually turn on him?

Would love to see Hird and Dank fall out then it would really hit the fan and some truth would start to come out.

I will get shoot down ( load your guns).

I don't know if you've now deserted this thread given that nobody supported your view but if you go back a few pages you'll see a discussion on the issue I've had with other posters.

I learned a couple of things but the major view seemed to be that it's necessary to punish the Essendon players as a deterrent. After all if they are not punished every athlete will take drugs and hide behind the "it was the coach" defence.

Secondly the player is totally responsible for what goes into his body. Seeking professional advice in a professional organization and relying on coach, FD manager, conditioning coach, club doctor and supplement supplier for confirmation the drug is legal is not acceptable. In fact, if a player is injected for a bad ankle at half time and the doc puts in some anabolic steroid to hasten recovery without telling the player that is the players responsibility. He should be banned.

Thirdly that the law is the law. It doesn't matter that it's bad law that didn't anticipate a particular situation and under no circumstances should people have an ability to apply equitable solutions to difficult situation. The law is the law.

Of course there are some issues that may have been addressed earlier in this monster thread which I haven't seen. But the first issue is that no Essendon player has tested positive to a drug test, to my knowledge at least. Much as Jack says " it's like saying you didn't realise the speed limit was 40 and then you get booked" I'd say banning the Bomber players without a positive drug test is like sentencing someone to hang for murder without a body. For all we know Danks was playing a practical joke and was injecting saline and hoping for a significant placebo effect whilst slipping the real drugs paid for by Essendon into his pocket to be injected into the body builder down at the local gym. But he's probably too honest for that.

And for those arguing for the player to be punished because if they aren't "athletes will hide behind their coaches" their response and concerns will not be allayed unless all 43 Bombers are banned as all 43 were involved in the drug program. If only 14 get "done" the other 29 have got away with it and athletes around the world will have a blueprint of how to take drugs and go unpunished.

It's a stupid, dumb, inequitable, difficult and highly dangerous situation where the players face an uncertain medical future due to the trust they put in recognized and qualified professions. Those championing their disqualification from AFL footy seem to think their medical situation isn't punishing enough and that as well as their problematic medical future they should also lose their liveihood.

In short the human aspect of this event should not be considered and taken into account as the law didn't address this. After all, people are not important and we don't want to dilute the law, particularly as it involves Essendon players.

I don't share their view.

Oh, and from my brief reading of this thread I think Trengove is safe. There is a view that there is no evidence that he put a cream on his foot that contained AOD 9604 and if there's no proof he can't be found guilty. Thank heavens for all those positive drug tests. Oh, hold on..........................

You'd make a good labor attorneyr general bob

Bob. You are the only person around here who think the WADA code laws are wrong.

They are there for all.

Secondly the player is totally responsible for what goes into his body. Seeking professional advice in a professional organization and relying on coach, FD manager, conditioning coach, club doctor and supplement supplier for confirmation the drug is legal is not acceptable. In fact, if a player is injected for a bad ankle at half time and the doc puts in some anabolic steroid to hasten recovery without telling the player that is the players responsibility. He should be banned.

That is totally different. of course its not the players fault then. however, if they knew what they were getting then it was their fault.

if dank has dressed up AOD and put it in a vitamin B bottle then how can it possibly be the players fault - if that were proved to be the case then the player should get a much lesser penalty.

in this case, the essendon players were made to sign waivers WITH THE DRUGS ON THE FORM.

Bob. You are the only person around here who think the WADA code laws are wrong.

They are there for all.

He isnt the only one. There are a number of posters who have challenged the good sensevof all this.

And if WADA code is there for all how come Hird. Thompson, Reid and co walk free for their appalling involvement in this fiasco how is the WADA law for all?

That is totally different. of course its not the players fault then. however, if they knew what they were getting then it was their fault.

if dank has dressed up AOD and put it in a vitamin B bottle then how can it possibly be the players fault - if that were proved to be the case then the player should get a much lesser penalty.

in this case, the essendon players were made to sign waivers WITH THE DRUGS ON THE FORM.

How were the players to know what they actually took if the Club didnt know what they took and cant confirm what thry have taken?

Bob , you are wrong. Simply because what youre proffering is at loggerheads with the accepted rules that all signed up to.

if you want to be right....change the rules

Oh, and from my brief reading of this thread I think Trengove is safe. There is a view that there is no evidence that he put a cream on his foot that contained AOD 9604 and if there's no proof he can't be found guilty. Thank heavens for all those positive drug tests. Oh, hold on..........................

Now you're starting to sound like a lawyer

Jeremiah 5:2: "Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not" - lest be nicked by asada

Player receives multiple injections into his body. Player either doesn't know or fully understand what is being injected other than amino acids or such. Player is assured by scientists that products are legal, but keeps no record as to what is being administered and does none of his own research.

There is at least a sufficient degree of recklessness to have the player sanctioned in these circumstances.

If the player was misled by the scientist into believing that he had taken the legal product X and was duped into taking illegal product Y then that would be a different story.

The WADA code needs to be adhered to with a strict liability or it is a waste of time. If a guilty mind needed to be proven in every case then the code is a toothless tiger and drugs in sport will become rampant.

I have already put my thoughts into the ether.

Doesn't matter what we think really. Wouldn't have a clue what will happen.

But players sign agreements when they come into the industry and Essendon weren't the only ones that failed these men - they failed themselves.

And escape from punishment should not come because there are no failed tests - Lance Armstrong never failed a test.

And escape from punishment should not come because they didn't keep (or managed to destroy) records of what was injected. Apparently, evidence gathered points to banned substances.

And escape from punishment should not come because their trust in their employers was misplaced. No other sport would have such a large loophole of rewarded ignorance.

But what will happen?

Who knows.

I have already put my thoughts into the ether.

Doesn't matter what we think really. Wouldn't have a clue what will happen.

But players sign agreements when they come into the industry and Essendon weren't the only ones that failed these men - they failed themselves.

And escape from punishment should not come because there are no failed tests - Lance Armstrong never failed a test.

And escape from punishment should not come because they didn't keep (or managed to destroy) records of what was injected. Apparently, evidence gathered points to banned substances.

And escape from punishment should not come because their trust in their employers was misplaced. No other sport would have such a large loophole of rewarded ignorance.

But what will happen?

Who knows.

Those are probably the wisest six words written on here for some time.

Then did nothing else and allowed it to continue. I was not too harsh on him. I was too lenient.

I stand corrected.

He should go - forthwith

I think this is far too personal for you to be objective BB.

Wade Lees never tested positive. Lance Armstrong didn't test positive enough (Armstrong Tested Positive for Steroids Four Times in 1999 Tour).

Jobe Watson admitted on national television to having been injected with AOD. Stewart Crameri, Scott Gumbleton, Ricky Dyson and Sam Lonergan told ASADA they believed/suspected they had been injected with AOD &/or Thymosin.

If I was on my death bed, I'd surely sign any waiver they put in front of me. No matter what exhausting, foreign, details it contained.

However with my life's health, livelihood, social and professional standing at stake I'd make damned sure to have a complete understanding before signing any waiver my workplace put before me. There are channels, beyond the WhateverItTakes circle, that anyone remotely concerned can use to validate such a document one way or the other. They all wanted to gain a competitive edge and didn't care to know any more.

This is what you are advocating.

Sam Lonergan ain't happy

Saying they are not guilty of taking banned substances because there is no positive drug test is like saying we're not guilty of tanking because there was no written direction found.

1. I think this is far too personal for you to be objective BB.

2. Jobe Watson admitted on national television to having been injected with AOD. Stewart Crameri, Scott Gumbleton, Ricky Dyson and Sam Lonergan told ASADA they believed/suspected they had been injected with AOD &/or Thymosin.

3. They all wanted to gain a competitive edge and didn't care to know any more.

Point 1. It's not personal other than I look at situations and seek the "right" outcome. If these players are banned I think it's wrong. I'm not arguing the law.

Point 2. I can't remember exactly but isn't there some confusion over whether AOD 9604 was banned? I thought Essendon supposedly had a letter or communication saying it was ok. And what did the club tell them? I don't think you know. I'd think it most likely they said the drugs were ok.

Point 3. You've got no idea what the players wanted unless they have all confided in you. Yes they wanted to gain a competitive edge but I don't think that 43 of them were active drug cheats willing to risk their footy careers and reputations.

Anyway I'll leave it again other than to say the players you've mentioned who have said they believed they took those drugs would hardly admit to that if they were cheats and thought the drugs were banned. That doesn't make sense.

I know I'm pretty much one out on this both here and amongst my friends. But I'm not convinced by silly arguments of "it's the law" and "deterrent". I'm even less convinced that the players "knew".

Nobody here has moved me in any way towards the view these players should suffer more than they have. I'm totally comfortable with where I stand.