On 05/03/2014 at 09:05, old dee said:

That is my point bing. the notices need to be solid or they wont be issued.

somehow I get the notion part of the delay goes to the idea of double dotting and double crossing....to be sure to be sure.

Little and Hird are about to experience something anew....abject failure

  On 05/03/2014 at 07:15, Rhino Richards said:

Conversely, Its also possible that they did not see the need to keep adequate records. Sinister is a possible outcome but so is (incredibly) incompetent, cavalier and slipshod.

Despite some resorting to equation it's not proven on what we know as to what actually happened. I am hoping ASADA can answer these issues. If ASADA does resolve to issues notices then due questions will be raised why they have not did not interview Dank. I suspect that Workcover will wait for the outcome of the ASADA investigation. What would you expect Workcover to do above and beyond ASADAs remit especially when there is an absence of records.

I'm sure I have seen text's or statements from Dank who said while it was happening how much the injections were working. Rhino would I be wrong to assume these people would have been

measuring the doses and who was taking what so they could keep the cycles going to keep the improvements going?

Hail James, the exalted leader of everything great in this hemisphere -

OldDee, of course none of us can say definitely the records existed and were definitely destroyed. But many of us feel that on the balance of probabilities they were kept, and if they no longer exist, were deliberately destroyed.

The only thing that would make me seriously doubt the latter is: If a lot of people were involved in maintaining the records and/or their destruction, then perhaps by now someone would have squealed. Maybe they have. We will have to wait and see.

  On 05/03/2014 at 10:21, Deeman said:

Hail James, the exalted leader of everything great in this hemisphere -

I protest, that should be Paul Roos there.

  On 05/03/2014 at 10:25, sue said:

OldDee, of course none of us can say definitely the records existed and were definitely destroyed. But many of us feel that on the balance of probabilities they were kept, and if they no longer exist, were deliberately destroyed.

The only thing that would make me seriously doubt the latter is: If a lot of people were involved in maintaining the records and/or their destruction, then perhaps by now someone would have squealed. Maybe they have. We will have to wait and see.

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

  On 05/03/2014 at 10:47, Redleg said:

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

yep... stands to reason

as obvious as balls on bull.

Theres no other conclusion that holds water

  On 05/03/2014 at 10:47, Redleg said:

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

  On 05/03/2014 at 10:47, Redleg said:

Logic suggests that there were records, as someone in charge would have had to know what and how much of it, was being administered to each player and when. Surely overdosing on a substance could have been an issue, re testing or effect etc. Someone had to have records to know what was going on simply to properly administer the program.

If that is the case, then they have been hidden or destroyed.

They were given to Bill Valhos for safe keeping in his ute

  On 05/03/2014 at 11:20, Red and Bluebeard said:

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

You have my vote R and B.

Sad part if your theory is true is that the players may never know what they were given.

I cannot imagine what that would be like.

This is a very sad state of affairs and Hird and company think they are being hardly done by.

  On 05/03/2014 at 12:40, old dee said:

You have my vote R and B.

Sad part if your theory is true is that the players may never know what they were given.

I cannot imagine what that would be like.

This is a very sad state of affairs and Hird and company think they are being hardly done by.

Agreed OD. Not knowing is the saddest part of this rotten mess, closely followed by the attitude of certain key players. To paraphrase Andre Agassi from years ago, certain people should use their riches to buy some perspective.

  On 05/03/2014 at 00:45, old dee said:

Once the pollies get involved anything can happen hardtack.

I know someone reasonable close to the Federal political scene they suggest that what the Feds don't want is notices issued that are challengeable in court.

They don't want to have to allocate more money to ASADA, in fact they would like to cut back.

My understanding is that as far as possible they only want infraction notices issued that are as iron clad as possible.

I will be surprised if the notices go ahead.

But hell I have been told things in the past that turn out to have been kite flying.

This of course goes against the core principle of british justice ie that appropriate resources will be allocated to ensure the rule of law is upheld. If it were otherwise, all the likes of Essendon need do to avoid being prosecuted is to threaten to take any prosecution to the appeals court and then the government withdraws funding to avoid a further court process. Under this principle, any crook could avoid prosecution.

But it is not about the prosecution of the Rule of Law of course. It is about the government looking after their Liberal Party mates who are closely associated with Essendon, and the Essendon Board, especially Paul Little, who is a major donor to the Liberal Party, or used to be when he was associated with Toll.

I have said on this thread many times that the only way Essendon will escape the rule of law is for them to get the federal government to make a special rule for them. Unfortunately I am becoming increasingly convinced this is exactly what is going to happen as the Abbott government appears to be so highly susceptible to vested interests of all kinds, and seems bent on nobbling ASADA.

I'm not quite sure people are really getting this. The only real rule of law here is the WADA code, policed by ASADA and applied by those who are signatories to it (AFL in this case). Abbott, Essendon, Hird or anyone else with a vested interest can think what they want, but at the end of the day, it's irrelevant.

In the Contador case (Clenbuterol), the Spanish Prime Minister came out and said that he was sure Contador was innocent, and he was then cleared by the Spanish cycling Federation (surprise surprise).

At which point WADA stepped in, appealed to CAS, and after a hearing he was banned.

... and Spain had to accept the WADA ruling lest it become an outcast in world sport i.e no Olympics, no World Cup etc. As powerful as the vested interests might be, they will not be able to overcome WADA if it deems that the appropriate action has not been undertaken: in other words, if the WADA Code has not been upheld.

  On 05/03/2014 at 11:20, Red and Bluebeard said:

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

That possibility did occur to me, but I dismissed it as an insult to Essendon's management.

  On 05/03/2014 at 07:15, Rhino Richards said:

Conversely, Its also possible that they did not see the need to keep adequate records. Sinister is a possible outcome but so is (incredibly) incompetent, cavalier and slipshod.

Despite some resorting to equation it's not proven on what we know as to what actually happened. I am hoping ASADA can answer these issues. If ASADA does resolve to issues notices then due questions will be raised why they have not did not interview Dank. I suspect that Workcover will wait for the outcome of the ASADA investigation. What would you expect Workcover to do above and beyond ASADAs remit especially when there is an absence of records.

Re the workcover thing, Workcover are responsible for workplace safety. For them to 'outsource' an investigation to a body that is focused on possibly different things is beyond belief.

Imagine your own workplace and the same thing happening. Its inconceivable that workcover would say " oh, we are waiting for everyone else to finish their investigation and well see what pops up. Evidence is destroyed, memories fade, behaviour continues etc etc A football club is a workplace just like yours and mine. It should be treated no differently.

What you seem to suggest is that that: a) Worksafe will rely entirely on ASADAs findings - which I find incompetent and disturbing; or, they will begin an investigation after ASADA has finished theirs. Either one is deplorable and different to how yours and my workplace would be treated.

And the absence of records we don't know officially about but workcover should be in there finding out. Not relying on some statutory body that frankly has not real track record of doing anything in the way of investigations. I mean, what skills do ASADA have in investigations? And if the records are missing them al the directors should be thrown in the can. Thats what would happen in my workplace.The point is clear. Footy is no different to any workplace.

Its a bit like the police saying, 'we won't investigate that murder because the immigration department is looking into the circumstances. We'll rely on their findings' Clearly wouldn't happen.

  On 05/03/2014 at 17:22, bing181 said:

I'm not quite sure people are really getting this. The only real rule of law here is the WADA code, policed by ASADA and applied by those who are signatories to it (AFL in this case). Abbott, Essendon, Hird or anyone else with a vested interest can think what they want, but at the end of the day, it's irrelevant.

In the Contador case (Clenbuterol), the Spanish Prime Minister came out and said that he was sure Contador was innocent, and he was then cleared by the Spanish cycling Federation (surprise surprise).

At which point WADA stepped in, appealed to CAS, and after a hearing he was banned.

Thats wrong I believe. Worksafe Victoria have a statutory duty to investigate.

  On 05/03/2014 at 06:40, ManDee said:

You are not the only one wondering about workcover. I think it will come. I think it is a matter of getting ones ducks in a line.

https://theconversation.com/time-for-ohs-regulators-to-get-off-the-bench-and-into-the-game-17039

That is a great article. I am going to write to my State member and lodge a formal complaint.

Oh and the guy that wrote was legal counsel for Workcover - he should know...

  On 05/03/2014 at 09:47, Cards13 said:

I'm sure I have seen text's or statements from Dank who said while it was happening how much the injections were working. Rhino would I be wrong to assume these people would have been

measuring the doses and who was taking what so they could keep the cycles going to keep the improvements going?

Do you have a link to the reports Cards?

And who are these people you refer to?

  On 05/03/2014 at 21:02, jnrmac said:

Re the workcover thing, Workcover are responsible for workplace safety. For them to 'outsource' an investigation to a body that is focused on possibly different things is beyond belief.

Imagine your own workplace and the same thing happening. Its inconceivable that workcover would say " oh, we are waiting for everyone else to finish their investigation and well see what pops up. Evidence is destroyed, memories fade, behaviour continues etc etc A football club is a workplace just like yours and mine. It should be treated no differently.

What you seem to suggest is that that: a) Worksafe will rely entirely on ASADAs findings - which I find incompetent and disturbing; or, they will begin an investigation after ASADA has finished theirs. Either one is deplorable and different to how yours and my workplace would be treated.

And the absence of records we don't know officially about but workcover should be in there finding out. Not relying on some statutory body that frankly has not real track record of doing anything in the way of investigations. I mean, what skills do ASADA have in investigations? And if the records are missing them al the directors should be thrown in the can. Thats what would happen in my workplace.The point is clear. Footy is no different to any workplace.

Its a bit like the police saying, 'we won't investigate that murder because the immigration department is looking into the circumstances. We'll rely on their findings' Clearly wouldn't happen.

Your analogies are misplaced and you have mis represented my point or view.The issue of the supplements being given would appear to have administered at a multitude of locations not just in the workplace. There is significant overlap in the interests of ASADA and Workcover which may have been jeopardised had both gone concurrently to do there own investigations. Workcover may well rely on ASADA outcomes but would be free to further investigate. When the issue is the investigation is the existing of sports doping program associated with the ACCs investigation into the importation and distribution of illegal substances then ASADA is the best party to represent WADAs interest and investigate this.

  On 05/03/2014 at 20:49, sue said:

That possibility did occur to me, but I dismissed it as an insult to Essendon's management.

After what we have witnessed to date, I doubt whether anything could represent an insult to Essendon's management.

  On 05/03/2014 at 11:20, Red and Bluebeard said:

Could it be that Essendon never kept records, but Dank did? I am sort of in OD's camp, in that they may simply have trusted Dank, who would surely have kept thorough records, but never actually seen or known themselves. Not good, to say the least, but somehow seems possible given the need for plausible deniability in affairs like this ...

well if their objective was plausible deniability then that in itself should be damning, indicating a reckless concern for the players and an acknowledgement that the program was not above board

can't have it both ways

  On 05/03/2014 at 21:28, Rhino Richards said:

Do you have a link to the reports Cards?

And who are these people you refer to?

Still trying to find the others I saw, here is a couple but it does not clearly have Dank stating the specific improvements, "just up and about" typoe stuff. By people I mean Dank and the people he was sourcing the cocktails from. They would have to have kept records on dosages, and the outcomes otherwise there is no real benefit and there one can assume a real risk to the health of the players.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/texts-reveal-stephen-dank-discussed-injecting-bombers-with-experimental-racehorse-drug/story-fni5f6kv-1226706049266

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-04-11/hird-given-drug-report

recent statements and developments suggest to me that the dons are ready for pain.

the president and coaching staff are hoping it wont be bad ,but they know its going to come by the end of next month.

never been a betting man,but im willing to put 35c on an eviction from the house.

the big fella will make sure the dons will survive,but pain is coming.

  On 05/03/2014 at 22:34, jazza said:

recent statements and developments suggest to me that the dons are ready for pain.

the president and coaching staff are hoping it wont be bad ,but they know its going to come by the end of next month.

never been a betting man,but im willing to put 35c on an eviction from the house.

the big fella will make sure the dons will survive,but pain is coming.

It's a house of cards... and I believe it will come tumbling down in about one and a half months time.