The thing is, we shouldn't be this bad

[Weedster 174]

Our best side, as an example,something like

Grimes Garland McDonald

Strauss Frawley Terlich

M.Jones N.Jones Trengove

Blease Dawes Watts

Howe Clark Davey

Jamar Sylvia Viney

Res Toumpas Dunne Tapscott Gawn

is not too bad - would suggest it should be middle-of-the road competitive with room for improvement.

I understand we've got injuries, but with Hogan to come and an ounce of luck, we surely have something to offer - we really shouldn't be this bad.

[Clark_Kent 315]

I think we sometimes overrate some of our players.

For example:

Dunn

Tapscott

Strauss

McDonald

Blease

Watts

Jamar

I don't think they are as great as some people think. Most of them have a lot of improvement to go but for where we are at the moment they are unable to lift us just yet. Our biggest issue as discussed is that the majority of our side is under 50 games experience and we have no 200+ gamers to lead them. We are pretty much right where I thought we would be at the start of the season and I tipped us to finish 2nd last. I didn't think we would have as many big losses but that could be because of a number of reasons. I like a lot of people on here wanted us to get rid of Moloney, Morton, Bate and Martin. Wasn't sure about Petterd and Gysberts but whatever not a huge loss. But I knew as soon as we did this we would really struggle to cover them for the time being even with the players we brought in. None are world beaters and I knew they wouldn't be. This is why although I am angry at our situation like everyone else I expected something along the line of where we are now because of how many players were turned over. But I wanted that turnover so I have to put up with the crap for now.

[Little Richard 6,216]

It feels like we haven't had our best 22 on the park for years... we could be quite a bit better than what we are I think, though cunnerz is right, we do overrate a number of players.

[old dee 23,494]

oh come on guys the list is the worst in the competition.

the opening of the thread is dead wrong

Yes we are this bad.

We have no more than a dozen AFL players when they are all fit to play the rest are VFL standard or worse.

The results have been on the board for the last couple of years.

Get a grip everyone face the fact that JC could not make this lot wins games.

We just do not have the talent.

It really is that simple

[RalphiusMaximus 6,012]

I will say one thing. If we stopped making the slapstick turnovers through the middle of the ground, we'd be coming close to winning a lot of the games we're getting smashed in. On QB our turnovers gave the Pies more than the winning margin in points. If we had not made such stupid errors and even half of the aborted forward thrusts became scores we won that game. It's not that we are a terrible list or that we're badly coached, it's that the same people time after time are kicking the ball directly to the opposition and causing them to score against us.

[Yossarian 1,820]

I think the tone was set from the outset of the second quarter when players had the opportunity to play on but went back behind the mark and were then forced to do exactly what Lingy was saying they had to avoid... simply bombing it long down the line to a contest. We'd gone into our shell and everything else was the same predictable crap. At least it shows that some of it comes down to belief, whether that'll come or not by trying to turn one quarter into two quarters etc... who knows. Baby steps seems to be the general approach by all concerned right now. Baby steps and rash decisions.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,423]

I think Strauss could be in trouble. tappscott still needs to show something given the selection faith placed in him. Dunn is done for mine.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,646]

I think the tone was set from the outset of the second quarter when players had the opportunity to play on but went back behind the mark and were then forced to do exactly what Lingy was saying they had to avoid... simply bombing it long down the line to a contest. We'd gone into our shell and everything else was the same predictable crap. At least it shows that some of it comes down to belief, whether that'll come or not by trying to turn one quarter into two quarters etc... who knows. Baby steps seems to be the general approach by all concerned right now. Baby steps and rash decisions.

Mind you, a lot of turnovers occurred because players played on perhaps when they shouldn't have. Such as (a) Trengove in front of the members when he slipped after taking a mark and (b) every time the ball was around the centre line and there were no forwards to send it to.

[PJ_12345 1,098]

Blease and Silvia had 57% and 47% disposal efficiency against the pies.

I don't mean so sound rude but Blease isn't an AFL level player. Happy for him to prove me wrong but when MN was saying how the team has some players who shouldn't be playing AFL because of our situation last presser he would have been thinking about: Blease, Magner, MacKenzie, and Bail.

On paper the list looks ok. But once you factor in injuries, effort (no second effort), fitness (2 years off AFL standard) and overall skill (disposal efficiency) its easy to see why we have the worst list in the game.

Just look at Collingwood's conversions from our turnovers...

[jazza 1,323]

Blease and Silvia had 57% and 47% disposal efficiency against the pies.

I don't mean so sound rude but Blease isn't an AFL level player. Happy for him to prove me wrong but when MN was saying how the team has some players who shouldn't be playing AFL because of our situation last presser he would have been thinking about: Blease, Magner, MacKenzie, and Bail.

On paper the list looks ok. But once you factor in injuries, effort (no second effort), fitness (2 years off AFL standard) and overall skill (disposal efficiency) its easy to see why we have the worst list in the game.

Just look at Collingwood's conversions from our turnovers...

your not rude, its true

he has to play average listed players, thats all hes got

he needs another pre and more muscle and miles into some junoirs

the draft should get us 4 players

until then hes got to play gravediggers

[pm24 451]

Our best side, as an example,something like

Grimes Garland McDonald

Macdonald/Pedersen Frawley Terlich

M.Jones Evans Trengove

Byrnes Dawes Watts

Howe Clark Davey

Jamar Sylvia Jones

Res Toumpas Viney Gawn Rodan

is not too bad - would suggest it should be middle-of-the road competitive with room for improvement.

I understand we've got injuries, but with Hogan to come and an ounce of luck, we surely have something to offer - we really shouldn't be this bad.

I think I would have a different best 22 at the moment. And it's going to be controversial to some, but I've made the changes to your best 22 in bold.

I think Pedersen and Macdonald offer more than Dunn does at the moment. Pedersen has at least shown a capacity to be able to take some good intercept marks, and is more athletic than Dunn. Macdonald is better at doing real grunt work and effecting turnovers. From all reports his run and kicking out of the back line has also improved. Dunn is just too one dimensional now.

Evans is in based on his form as well, particularly ahead of players like Strauss and Tapscott who have just not gotten enough of the ball at AFL level. Byrnes also comes in, as he has shown more and contributed more when playing than Blease.

I wish I could put Strauss and Blease in there, but they aren't consistent enough.

I've also thrown Rodan is there, as I have liked what he has brought to the team in recent weeks. He would either be a great sub, or player to pinch hit in the midfield and then swing into the forward line.

I think the make-up I've suggested also gives us a better balance of experience and talent.

[mjt 640]

Blease and Silvia had 57% and 47% disposal efficiency against the pies.

I don't mean so sound rude but Blease isn't an AFL level player. Happy for him to prove me wrong but when MN was saying how the team has some players who shouldn't be playing AFL because of our situation last presser he would have been thinking about: Blease, Magner, MacKenzie, and Bail.

On paper the list looks ok. But once you factor in injuries, effort (no second effort), fitness (2 years off AFL standard) and overall skill (disposal efficiency) its easy to see why we have the worst list in the game.

Just look at Collingwood's conversions from our turnovers...

Blease kicked 5 goals against the Saints last year, so the talents there, but he's had a [censored] season this year, I just can't see how Tapscotts been getting a game , he's not AFL standard at the moment.

[old dee 23,494]

Blease kicked 5 goals against the Saints last year, so the talents there, but he's had a [censored] season this year, I just can't see how Tapscotts been getting a game , he's not AFL standard at the moment.

Has he ever been?

I have no idea in what area he has the talent to be an AFL level player.

All I see is an occasional tough act.

[DeeSpencer 24,762]

FB: Terlich Frawley Garland
HB: Grimes XXXX XXXX

C: XXXX Jones XXXXX

HF: Sylvia Dawes Howe
FF: Trengove Clark XXXXX

Foll: Jamar XXXX XXXX

Int: Viney M. Jones Evans S: Davey

I count 15 AFL players on our list. Now that sounds horrible but I'd say even Sydney or Hawthorn would only have 25-28 but 15 is a low number. We also have some decent developing mids like Viney, M. Jones and Evans but it's unfair to label them starting quality AFL players. I think that's the reality of our side and at the moment Grimes, Frawley and Clark are out. Sylvia is coming off suspension. Trengove returning from injury.

Now we've got plenty who are close to AFL standard: McDonald, McKenzie, Watts, Blease, Dunn, Davey, Tapscott, Bail, Strauss, Toumpas, Pedersen, Gawn, Byrnes, Rodan, Kent but it's a group of players who should be fighting to fill the last 4 spots each week not 10+ spots. All of those guys are probably a cut above VFL, they show when they play VFL they play well. But they aren't AFL standard yet.

Now next year after a good preseason we get Viney, Toumpas, Evans and Kent ready to be good enough to start AFL games and perform consistetly. Strauss finds a level of hardness which could come from some inspired coaching. McDonald fixes his kicking with more poise. McKenzie looks better in a better side. Hogan comes in. Blease improves. A first round draft pick is ready to go. And the majority of our consistent players are healthy and all of a sudden we might not be so bad.

FB: Terlich Frawley Garland

HB: Grimes McDonald Strauss
C: Toumpas Jones Evans
HF: Sylvia Dawes Howe
FF: Hogan Clark Kent
Foll: Jamar Mckenzie Viney
Int; M. Jones, Pick 2, FA, Blease

[Hannibal 5,814]

Our best side, as an example,something like

Grimes Garland McDonald

Strauss Frawley Terlich

M.Jones N.Jones Trengove

Blease Dawes Watts

Howe Clark Davey

Jamar Sylvia Viney

Res Toumpas Dunne Tapscott Gawn

Terlich and M. Jones are no world beaters and are still developing, along with Viney and Toumpas.

I've put a line through those that are not consistently strong AFL players - for whatever reason. Others will say, "Terlich has been good". Yeah, he's done pretty well, but I don't see much more than a battler.

I count about 8 players that are presently (usually) strong AFL players. It's why we have one of the worst teams and percentage in history. But there's a bit for the new coach to work with.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Ben-Hur

[old dee 23,494]

Terlich and M. Jones are no world beaters and are still developing, along with Viney and Toumpas.

I've put a line through those that are not consistently strong AFL players - for whatever reason. Others will say, "Terlich has been good". Yeah, he's done pretty well, but I don't see much more than a battler.

I count about 8 players that are presently (usually) solid citizens. It's why we have one of the worst teams and percentage in history. But there's a bit for the new coach to work with.

I think you are very close to the money Ben

Not sure why so many dees supporters cannot see from the results we have the poorest list in the competition by some way.

[Sir Why You Little 36,638]

I think you are very close to the money Ben

Not sure why so many dees supporters cannot see from the results we have the poorest list in the competition by some way.

Of course we do..it is the reason we must try so hard to keep our talent next year & Beyond

These kids need the best coaching there is...People may think we cannot afford the best, well we sure as hell cannot afford Rookie Coaches or the talent will leave.

[old dee 23,494]

Of course we do..it is the reason we must try so hard to keep our talent next year & Beyond

These kids need the best coaching there is...People may think we cannot afford the best, well we sure as hell cannot afford Rookie Coaches or the talent will leave.

Now this where we differ wyl.

IMO no coach could get much better from this list.

It is just bad.

Ben says eight AFL standard I say it is around twelve.

Either way a long way from the min requirement of 25.

You cannot pull up your socks if you don't have any on.

Edited June 13, 2013 by old dee

[Sir Why You Little 36,638]

Now this where we differ wyl.

IMO no coach could get much better from this list.

It is just bad.

Ben says eight AFL standard I say it is around twelve.

Either way a long way from the min requirement of 25.

You cannot pull up your socks if you don't have any on.

I do not disagree, but it is time to stop hiring a Cheaper Rookie Coach & assistants so that the list gets the best chance...and it will make outside players want to come to play for us

[Bitter but optimistic 22,065]

I do not disagree, but it is time to stop hiring a Cheaper Rookie Coach & assistants so that the list gets the best chance...and it will make outside players want to come to play for us

The only thing that will attract " outside players" ATM is heaps of $$$$$. Which we don't have.

[Johnny Karate 559]

The best teams have players that have talent, leadership and experience to burn. As our list currently stands it is a struggle to pick an MFC player that possesses more than one of these qualities, indeed the three categories are almost mutually exclusive. It goes without saying that this is why we're in such an appalling state.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Jimmi C

[RalphiusMaximus 6,012]

VEry interesting to look at the disposal efficiency from that last game. The culprits are not the ones would have expected.

[DeeSpencer 24,762]

VEry interesting to look at the disposal efficiency from that last game. The culprits are not the ones would have expected.

Got a link?

[ThreeOneSix 954]

I agree that were shouldn't be this bad, but we've never had a full side on the park to see how good our list is.

Grimes, Sylvia, Clark, Dawes, Frawley, Viney and Jones have all never been on the park at the same time.

Those players are a good foundation for next year and whilst some are out atm, it gives other players a chance to step up.

As other posters have mentioned, a few players need a miracle, other than Dunn - who not even a miracle could save, what a pathetic decision maker and lazy person.

[DeeSpencer 24,762]

Backman Joel Macdonald, who withdrew from last round with a foot injury, could also be in the mix for Melbourne’s next match on June 22.

“He unfortunately had an accident in the gym, where he dropped a 50kg dumbbell on his big toe and cracked his big toe,” Misson said.

“It’s still a bit sore, but the advice that we’ve had is that it should get better reasonably quickly.

“It’s really just going to be how Joel goes with running, but we’d expect him to play in our next game, which is round 13.”

I know it's only Joel Macdonald but this is pretty much representative of just how bad things are. It's classic case of when things just aren't going your way!