Mckenzie and Nicholson

[monoccular 16,290]

I have always loved, and still do, Jordie's courage and his great work ethic - if all the rest put in like he does we would be doing a lot better - but I despair that he will not make the grade when (?if) we get our act together and move forward. I am not sure if he can be taught peripheral awareness or disposal skills at his age? Are there precedents? Certainly Toddy learned to kick late in his career....maybe he should take Jordie aside and give him some tips (no doubt he has already).

[monoccular 16,290]

At the moment Jordie has not come into the team with any sort of form. He is struggling to keep pace with some of the elite mids he has to tag and is fumbling and turning the ball over. He will never kick it more than 20 if he cannot handball. Is he under instruction to not kick? He is really struggling in the midfield at center bounces. I always thought him the logical replacement for junior and to be no 1 tackler but he hasn't been able to rise to the challenge. What to do?

I think he needs a spell of maybe 4 or even 6 games, however well he goes, at Casey to work on his skills and confidence. He is far too hard a worker and too determined a guy to allow to wither away.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,541]

We're bad because we have no targets 50-80 metres out from goal. We need to either recruit a rich man's Brad Miller, or transform one of our many promising tall forwards into that kind of player. We consistently fall down in this area, and it kills us every time. I'm now convinced that this is the reason we're so bad.

In fact, this might be the perfect role for Jack Watts. He has good endurance, can take a mark and has a great kick. Get it done Neeldy!

Dawes when Clark is fit and then Hogan next year will help plug that gap. Gives our players a big leading target to kick to out if defence while still having a key forward roaming inside 50 who can be the target for the next possession. The main reason I thought picking up Dawes was a good move.

[jnrmac 19,210]

We will never be a decent side with Bail, Jordie. Joel Mac, Spencer or Nicho in the side.

So the question is do you play them or promote kids?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Jnrmac is spot on.

Jordie and nicho wouldn't be getting games at any other AFL club, I'll tell you now and we'll never get anywhere with them on our list.

Paul Roos and a 15 player overhaul again. Draft and trade for young players who are smart, tough and can kick. A new game plan. Neeld is such a malthouse traditionalist. We need to draft kids with kicking skills for Christ sake. It's the most important part of playing afl. Being able to kick! One on one in the backline. No zones. Tough and uncompromising. Get another dean terlich type for the other flank/pocket. Our forward line is fine. Midfield is what we need. Young enthusiastic players like viney who can kick. If they are outmuscled for a couple of years I don't care. At least I will know they can play. Nicho, jetta, mcKenzie, bail, evans, magner.. These guys are not afl players.

End rant.

[rpfc 27,591]

It is not as simple as that.

I want good kids too in our midfield but with Viney, Toumpas, Kent, and the inexperience of Jones, Evans (he is 20 stmj and the equal of many promising 20 year olds at clubs people respect) how many kids can we put in there?

We have shown that overloading with youth is terrible for a club with an already battered culture.

We need to get some more talented youth but don't tell me that they shouldn't have to earn their games (because that is the inference) or that we shouldn't waste time with anyone older than 22. Jones was 25 when we got him, Terlich was 23 - on the small amount of evidence available they are worth their place and are earning their place.

Edited May 20, 2013 by rpfc

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

It is not as simple as that.

I want good kids too in our midfield but with Viney, Toumpas, Kent, and the inexperience of Jones, Evans (he is 20 stmj and the equal of many promising 20 year olds at clubs people respect) how many kids can we put in there?

We have shown that overloading with youth is terrible for a club with an already battered culture.

We need to get some more talented youth but don't tell me that they shouldn't have to earn their games (because that is the inference) or that we shouldn't waste time with anyone older than 22. Jones was 25 when we got him, Terlich was 23 - on the small amount of evidence available they are worth their place and are earning their place.

Well I believe that it is as simple as that.

Obviously there are number of factors that have contributed to where our list is at right now. Lack of leadership, below average recruiting and below average player management and coaches.

All we need to do is get those three things right, and we are set RP. We have a new recruiting team. We need to identify genuine footballers. Players who can use the ball, players who are strong minded and smart individuals. Players that want to succeed. Midfielders and more midfielders. BP and his team have made some horrendous decisions in the past which has added to the predicament we are facing.

Through free agency I hope we can snag a couple of middle aged midfielders from other clubs. We should be going after Daisy for sure. Prestia as well. Even going for someone like Cooney wouldn't hurt. We need to turn this list over on its head. It's a sick playing group and we need to target some mids from other clubs to lead the way just as Mitch Clark has done and just as Dawes has been doing behind closed doors. I don't know where poor Jesse would be if Clark hadn't been there from the start or even Dawes. People underestimate their presence and abilities as teachers. We need more of that from our midfield but with middle aged players.

Paul roos. Get him, and get some serious assistant coaches down there for even more support and development. We need an injection of life in every facet of the club.

It's as simple as that for me.

Edited May 21, 2013 by stevethemanjordan

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Macdonald, Nicholson, McKenzie, Bail, Spencer, Fitzy, Magner, Couch, Sylvia, Pederson, Jetta, Jamar and Davey. They all need to be gone within a couple of years.

Our core is is here:

Garland

Frawley

Watts

Gawn

Hogan

Dawes

Clarke

Jones

Viney

Toumpas

Barry

Taggert

Terlich

Kent

Trengove

Grimes

Howe

I believe Taggert is a player and should be playing AFL. When he gets his turn, just watch.

All we need to add to that list is quality young mids from the draft, a few more middle aged mids from other clubs, another mobile ruckman and perhaps another middle aged quality defender who can use the [censored] ball.

Key attributes for all players drafted must be kicking skills and competitiveness.

Edited May 21, 2013 by stevethemanjordan

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Once this has occurred, get the right coaches in and bang. We have a club moving forward.

[rpfc 27,591]

With all due respect, stmj, you have added a great deal more to what I said was pretty simple.

I don't disagree with your diagnosis or your remedy.

But it is not as simple as getting kids in - which is what I said was too simple - and getting Roos, Prestia, Cooney, 23-25 year old mids, and the best talent in the draft is pretty difficult and complicated.

I agree we would ahve a core of players to build around but recruiting should be done on a case by case basis and a respect for the type of character you want your playing group to reflect. I want them to be as aggressive as Viney, but I also want them to be as dedicated and driven as McKenzie. Recruitment and list management is not a science - there are no hard and fast rules. We need to evaluate what we lack (other than talent) and attempt to remedy that.

Your remedy is close to that but from your list:

Our core is is here:

Garland
Frawley
Watts
Gawn
Hogan
Dawes
Clarke
Jones
Viney
Toumpas
Barry
Taggert
Terlich
Kent
Trengove
Grimes
Howe

6 are teenagers, and from those older than 20 only Jones, Grimes, and Trengove play in the midfield. We cannot just clear out these bodies, unless you direct replacements, and you certainly can't clear out these bigger bodies for kids.

A midfield of Jones, Trengove, Grimes, Viney, Barry, Kent, Toumpas, Taggert, and whatever good kids we get is going to get hammered. Unless we can get suitable replacements for M.Jones, McKenzie, Bail, Magner, Evans (20 btw again), and Sylvia they are going to be sticking around.

[demonchris 162]

Why is everyone ripping on Mckenzie? He has won the coaches award 3 years in a row... He works very hard, why get rid of players like that?

[Biffen 12,385]

On topic ,the foot skills and hand skills of these guys are a liability .

Other ares of their games are really good .

McKenzie was good by foot ,average by hand and then had is Cale moment last week .

Overall ,these guys will stay on the list based on effort ,running ,tackling and it is the job of the skills coach to teach them more disposal skills .

Our best team involves Viney ,Watts and Clark who can kick .

Nicholson and McKenzie both panic.

Sellars is the same .

But it is what it is.

People can now start to see players like Strauss ,Evans, Jetta and others who can it targets.

The turnovers are killing us ,the lack of uncontested possession is forcing us to work twice as hard as the other team.

Guys who cant kick will find themselves at Casey once we get going .

Can we get Robbie Flower to teach a skills session once a week for these guys?

[rjay 23,970]

Macdonald, Nicholson, McKenzie, Bail, Spencer, Fitzy, Magner, Couch, Sylvia, Pederson, Jetta, Jamar and Davey. They all need to be gone within a couple of years.

Our core is is here:

Garland

Frawley

Watts

Gawn

Hogan

Dawes

Clarke

Jones

Viney

Toumpas

Barry

Taggert

Terlich

Kent

Trengove

Grimes

Howe

I believe Taggert is a player and should be playing AFL. When he gets his turn, just watch.

All we need to add to that list is quality young mids from the draft, a few more middle aged mids from other clubs, another mobile ruckman and perhaps another middle aged quality defender who can use the [censored] ball.

Key attributes for all players drafted must be kicking skills and competitiveness.

I agree and think he is, however I don't like the way he is being played at Casey and think they need to get him into the action. We seem to be putting a lot energy into players becoming defensive forwards and it is hurting their game. Players like Tapscott, Bail, Jetta, Davey when forward and Howe just don't get enough ball. Howe needs to be released up the ground a lot more.

With comments like this from the coaches "Rory Taggert - Rory had limited impact on the game, as his defensive efforts were not at the level we require. While he had 13 touches, we do expect more from him as he has the fitness and body strength to compete hard at this level when he sets his mind to it."

I fear he will be another wasted talent.

So he has the fitness and body to compete then get him into the action and into the middle. We don't need anymore defensive forwards who can't get a kick and mids/ HB's who can't kick.

[old dee 22,952]

On topic ,the foot skills and hand skills of these guys are a liability .

Other ares of their games are really good .

McKenzie was good by foot ,average by hand and then had is Cale moment last week .

Overall ,these guys will stay on the list based on effort ,running ,tackling and it is the job of the skills coach to teach them more disposal skills .

Our best team involves Viney ,Watts and Clark who can kick .

Nicholson and McKenzie both panic.

Sellars is the same .

But it is what it is.

People can now start to see players like Strauss ,Evans, Jetta and others who can it targets.

The turnovers are killing us ,the lack of uncontested possession is forcing us to work twice as hard as the other team.

Guys who cant kick will find themselves at Casey once we get going .

Can we get Robbie Flower to teach a skills session once a week for these guys?

I agree with you Biff

However it is my experience that once you get to 23 you do not improve your kicking ability it is set no matter how much you practise.

In the case of Bail he is 25 he will not change.

While these three can regularly get a game we will remain at the bottom of the ladder.

[rpfc 27,591]

I agree and think he is, however I don't like the way he is being played at Casey and think they need to get him into the action. We seem to be putting a lot energy into players becoming defensive forwards and it is hurting their game. Players like Tapscott, Bail, Jetta, Davey when forward and Howe just don't get enough ball. Howe needs to be released up the ground a lot more.

With comments like this from the coaches "Rory Taggert - Rory had limited impact on the game, as his defensive efforts were not at the level we require. While he had 13 touches, we do expect more from him as he has the fitness and body strength to compete hard at this level when he sets his mind to it."

I fear he will be another wasted talent.

So he has the fitness and body to compete then get him into the action and into the middle. We don't need anymore defensive forwards who can't get a kick and mids/ HB's who can't kick.

This sounds a lot like you want to gift a kid a few games...

Defensive efforts are not just for forwards - I don't know where you are getting that from. Perhpas he doesn't track back from the midfield, perhaps he gets beaten to contests by his opposite number, etc.

There are plenty of good traits that should be shown at Casey before they are given games in the AFL - and a great number of them would be related to what you do when you don't have the footy.

Edited May 22, 2013 by rpfc

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

RP,

Here's what I believe.

In recent years, our club has not had a strong and highly competent recruiting department which has led to below average players being recruited over and over and now we have a list that lacks the required skill and decision making ability to string more than one or two passes together on a football field.

Our players run around like headless chooks chasing their opponents when we don't have the ball. Neeld insists on contested footy and winning first possession as a number one priority but we shoot ourselves in the foot by giving it away every [censored] time we get it. Our list is an absolute disgrace.

Of course it doesn't help that there has been a lack of leadership and experience but that can be fixed. What can't be fixed is having these same players who may well have the right 'attitude' like McKenzie, but who will never improve their natural skill level, awareness or decision making ability meaning they will time and time again butcher the ball, turn it over and make terrible errors.

We cannot execute ANY game plan because our list is so bad and it's overlooked time and time again by many.

I would rather go back to square one, draft kids that display these three KEY attributes. Kicking skills, Contested footy winners, and smart human beings who display sound decision making skills. Dean Terlich has played a handful of games after one AFL pre season and has already shown more ability and is more valuable as a player in my eyes than McKenzie, Nicho, Bail, Evans, Magner, Couch, Jetta and the list of others who got the flick or were traded at the end of last year. That tells me that our recruiting has been [censored] awful over the past 5 or so years. We have not identified quality footballers.

And as for the 'gifting games' goes, how many games did it take Terlich to make his way into the side? Same goes for Matt Jones. While his not as skilled as Terlich, he again has shown more than that list I went through above. I don't care that Matt Jones is 25, it's his skill level that is higher than that of the players I've mentioned. Same with Terlich. Even Kent. He can hit a [censored] target.

This is what I mean be it being simple. Why have Richmond progressed so well? Because they have got players who can execute what is required when asked. Why have Port Adelaide moved forward? Because they have quality on their list. Players who can use the ball and make sound decisions.

I would gift games to players and play kids if they possessed those three attributes and I don't care if it means we are outmuscled. Because that's all it will be!!! Outmuscled. Build their bodies and tanks and the rest will take care of itself. We've been building tanks and bodies for how long with our list and have the skills or decision making skills improved? Not on your life.

I suggest you look at the way Hawthorn drafted for the team they have now. They identified key attributes and drafted players to build a team who could execute a gameplan and Hawthorn had shocking experience and leadership when Vandenberg was Captain. Recruitment is key. We can speed up this process with Free agency.

I'm hopeful that Neeld shares the same concerns. That we have an abundance of dumb, skill-less, pathetic footballers that we need to get rid of to keep this club alive.

Too many supporters let their ego's go too far. I don't care that some of these players are 'good servants' or 'hard workers'. If they can't play the game, we are doomed.

It's [censored] simple.

[Clark_Kent 315]

I agree with what your saying but I think a player like Mckenzie is valuable for showing the young talented kids what type of work ethic to have at AFL level. I doubt he will be playing for us next time we play finals or even when we start to climb up the ladder as the more talented mids will move past him. But what he can do is drive these younger players to push themselves more. The tigers have held onto a few players who have a lower skill level but are triers i.e. Tuck, Foley, Jackson. They are there to push the young kids and create competitveness and we need that now.

So unfortunately Mckenzie is best 22 as of now but I doubt he will be in 2 years time.

And I think your being harsh on Evans as I think his skill level is well aove Mckenzie, Nicho and Bail.

[Bring Back Barassi 543]

get out

[rpfc 27,591]

RP,

Here's what I believe.

In recent years, our club has not had a strong and highly competent recruiting department which has led to below average players being recruited over and over and now we have a list that lacks the required skill and decision making ability to string more than one or two passes together on a football field.

Our players run around like headless chooks chasing their opponents when we don't have the ball. Neeld insists on contested footy and winning first possession as a number one priority but we shoot ourselves in the foot by giving it away every [censored] time we get it. Our list is an absolute disgrace.

Of course it doesn't help that there has been a lack of leadership and experience but that can be fixed. What can't be fixed is having these same players who may well have the right 'attitude' like McKenzie, but who will never improve their natural skill level, awareness or decision making ability meaning they will time and time again butcher the ball, turn it over and make terrible errors.

We cannot execute ANY game plan because our list is so bad and it's overlooked time and time again by many.

I would rather go back to square one, draft kids that display these three KEY attributes. Kicking skills, Contested footy winners, and smart human beings who display sound decision making skills. Dean Terlich has played a handful of games after one AFL pre season and has already shown more ability and is more valuable as a player in my eyes than McKenzie, Nicho, Bail, Evans, Magner, Couch, Jetta and the list of others who got the flick or were traded at the end of last year. That tells me that our recruiting has been [censored] awful over the past 5 or so years. We have not identified quality footballers.

And as for the 'gifting games' goes, how many games did it take Terlich to make his way into the side? Same goes for Matt Jones. While his not as skilled as Terlich, he again has shown more than that list I went through above. I don't care that Matt Jones is 25, it's his skill level that is higher than that of the players I've mentioned. Same with Terlich. Even Kent. He can hit a [censored] target.

This is what I mean be it being simple. Why have Richmond progressed so well? Because they have got players who can execute what is required when asked. Why have Port Adelaide moved forward? Because they have quality on their list. Players who can use the ball and make sound decisions.

I would gift games to players and play kids if they possessed those three attributes and I don't care if it means we are outmuscled. Because that's all it will be!!! Outmuscled. Build their bodies and tanks and the rest will take care of itself. We've been building tanks and bodies for how long with our list and have the skills or decision making skills improved? Not on your life.

I suggest you look at the way Hawthorn drafted for the team they have now. They identified key attributes and drafted players to build a team who could execute a gameplan and Hawthorn had shocking experience and leadership when Vandenberg was Captain. Recruitment is key. We can speed up this process with Free agency.

I'm hopeful that Neeld shares the same concerns. That we have an abundance of dumb, skill-less, pathetic footballers that we need to get rid of to keep this club alive.

Too many supporters let their ego's go too far. I don't care that some of these players are 'good servants' or 'hard workers'. If they can't play the game, we are doomed.

It's [censored] simple.

As I have said - that is not simple.

You want to get blokes in to replace those with questionable skill.

Great. That is a simple sentence. It's a simple idea.

But getting it done without having more pain, or without failure, is not simple at all.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

It's simple.

The MFC have made it hard by employing a plethora of people who have an inability to meet the standards and expectations of their job description.

And we have paid for it big time in all facets of our club.

Let's hope Peter Jackson gets the ball rolling.

[rjay 23,970]

This sounds a lot like you want to gift a kid a few games...

Defensive efforts are not just for forwards - I don't know where you are getting that from. Perhpas he doesn't track back from the midfield, perhaps he gets beaten to contests by his opposite number, etc.

There are plenty of good traits that should be shown at Casey before they are given games in the AFL - and a great number of them would be related to what you do when you don't have the footy.

No, I would like to see him play where he can do the most damage. We were killed in the middle on Saturday, it's where Taggert killed Box Hill in one of his only games last year.

Our senior team are used to not having the footy, I would rather a they had it a bit more. Simple answer I know but I don't have time to go into it at the moment, just saying I think we are spending to much time and thought on not having the footy instead of getting it.

[rpfc 27,591]

No, I would like to see him play where he can do the most damage. We were killed in the middle on Saturday, it's where Taggert killed Box Hill in one of his only games last year.

Our senior team are used to not having the footy, I would rather a they had it a bit more. Simple answer I know but I don't have time to go into it at the moment, just saying I think we are spending to much time and thought on not having the footy instead of getting it.

Frankly, I agree that the players have been too defensively focussed. They do not run to space and attempt to get the football. We averaged around 100 touches less than other teams - mainly from uncontested possessions.

But learning defesive aspects is an important part of the game nevertheless.

I would say that the best place for Tynan and Taggert and Toumpas and Kent and Blease to learn how to work defensively and then run to find space in attack would be at Casey.

I don't like the idea of having to many players learning at AFL level - unless they are bringing something to the table ie. speed, clearance winning ability, goal sense, etc.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

If players need work on a specific part of their game then it should be at Casey, likewise if coming back from injury and need some game time and match fitness.

Now for someone like Taggert, I believe his attributes as a player suit larger grounds as he is pacey and can use the ball. I understand there are areas of his game that need improving but there are definitely guys who have been gifted games before they 'deserved' it so to speak. Even Toumpas being blooded in round 1.

Taggert deserves a game, even if his numbers are low. I don't believe he has been given the same chance as what others have been given and he is someone who I believe could be a vital player for us.

I hope he gets a gig soon.

Edited May 22, 2013 by stevethemanjordan

[Maldonboy38 5,976]

There is no one-dimensional answer to any team's deficiencies, including ours.

GWS are a group of younger players with B+ leaders - look at them. They are struggling and will continue to until 2016/2017. Getting rid of B-grade talent and recruiting young guns (potentially, anyway) is part of a solution, but not the entire solution. Please not ANOTHER rebuild!!!

Look at Hawks, Pies and Cats. Their one over-riding point of difference is their low rate of turnovers. They can kick. When out on their own at full pace or under pressure near a pack they can kick with 75%+ efficiency. We lament so often "how did Tiges/Blues/Bombers get so many players free". It is usually because our players have begun a forward spread only to turn over the ball and be left in a defenseless position. We need Strauss, Watts, Davey, Clark, to be in the side and kicking. Hopefully Tappy will join this group. Unfortunately his kicking efficiency is poor this season when kicking is his main attribute.

Also, these teams grunt players can also kick. Guerra at the Hawks, Hunt and the Cats, and surprisingly Ball at the Pies. Surely we can get players into the team with grunt AND kicking ability!

Even in the Daniher era, we would see Leoncelli, Rigoni, Powell, come off half-back and wing and totally butcher the ball. I am sick of players who can't kick. I love the grunt of Nicho and Jordie etc...but they have proven time and time again that their poor kicking outweighs their ability to fight for the ball.

Edit: I agree that Taggert should get a game. He might have the odd poor game but he looks the goods to me, and I have seen a few Casey games this year.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Maldonboy38

[rpfc 27,591]

I thought Toumpas should not have played Rd1 and said as much on here.

We have had a culture of easy games for kids and I think it has been a hindrance to their development.