Was Gutnick right?

[jnrmac 19,890]

Gutnick dobbed the Club into the AFL for salary cap breach after he had a falling out with Schwab when Joe was Chairman and Schwab was CEO. The salary cap breaches were initiated by Schwab's predecessor but were not addressed nor resolved by Schwab.

In a typical self serving action, Gutnick offered Schwab's head on a stick to the AFL over the issue. MFC were punished with draft pick penalties in 1999 and 2000.

It's ironic Joe chose to be so "open and transparent" when his corporate life has been the exact opposite with numerous shareholders being wiped out and left in the dark.

This has been ignored for a long time but it is one of the major reasons we have no leadership at the club. We don't have any 200+ game players that are leqding our young brigade. Personally I lay a large chunk of blame on Gutnick for that mess.

You forgot the tax audits that Stynes, Lyon Viney Tingay had to endure. Well done Joe.

[jnrmac 19,890]

I thought Gutnick was great for the club & never understood why we got rid of him - oh wait, establishment club of rich white boys from the eastern suburbs couldn't handle a little Jewish man running their club, that's right.

I really hope that is an attempt at humour. He was a disaster.

[Guest]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/schwab-designated-fall-guy-walks-plank-20130409-2hjk1.html

There is another article on The Age from 1999/2000 but can't find it...

Crikey also wrote a piece on Melbourne's potential re-hiring of Schwab back in 2008: http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/07/30/chairman-jim-stynes-puts-the-hollywood-back-into-melbourne/

As for Gutnick, he was no saint.

Seems many a white knight has trotted into Melbourne before having to result to financial fallacies and unethical competitive (or uncompetitive) tactics.

The Hollywood Boulevard stuff has always been worrying. Whatever Bailey was or wasn't, him being sacked but Schwab staying only confirmed it. I remember reading an article by Bob Walls after 186. I sniffed at it as I thought it was complete crap. I now agree with it but with a caveat. The old boys club would rue the day they sacked Bailey (and didn't also sack Schwab and Connolly).

[Redleg 40,065]

I really hope that is an attempt at humour. He was a disaster.

And you of course donated $2.7m to the MFC and was one of the main people rallying people in opposing the merger.

I think I recall your posts back then, telling us to refuse his money, which saved the club at the time and urging everyone to accept the merger.

You are obviously a fan of the fine job Szondy did for this club, nearly destroying it.

Unbelievable!!!!!

[Redleg 40,065]

Gutnick dobbed the Club into the AFL for salary cap breach after he had a falling out with Schwab when Joe was Chairman and Schwab was CEO. The salary cap breaches were initiated by Schwab's predecessor but were not addressed nor resolved by Schwab.

In a typical self serving action, Gutnick offered Schwab's head on a stick to the AFL over the issue. MFC were punished with draft pick penalties in 1999 and 2000.

It's ironic Joe chose to be so "open and transparent" when his corporate life has been the exact opposite with numerous shareholders being wiped out and left in the dark.

You have demonstrated to me and most on here with this post, your clear hypocritical attitude.

You have said previously this Board was pathetic in not telling the AFL everything about the Dank affair and yet you condemn Joe for telling the truth to the AFL about systematic cheating on the salary cap. At the same time you don't mention those that were responsible for it, the Board at the time.

You attack him for his corporate life and I am not defending that or commenting on it, as I don't know all that you know, but you fail to mention the fact that he donated $2.7m to save the cub and opposed the merger with others like Brian Dixon.

For what it is worth I can give you another fact to digest, he is one of the biggest donors to Jewish and Non Jewish charities in Australia. He has personally helped many many families and individuals in Australia and there are plenty of hospitals and educational facilities that see him differently to you.

Why the f..k would anyone help this club when they are opened to this sort of garbage attack on them.

Please feel free to defame at your leisure.

[Sir Why You Little 36,604]

Whatever People think or say of Diamond Joe...Without him the club was done...Finished.

I was told by a board member of the day that Joe was pretty hard to work with, But he did save the club & he also stood up tp to the AFL.

In that Respect i miss Joe.

Wish he was around last summer.

[Adam The God 29,328]

This has been ignored for a long time but it is one of the major reasons we have no leadership at the club. We don't have any 200+ game players that are leqding our young brigade. Personally I lay a large chunk of blame on Gutnick for that mess.

You forgot the tax audits that Stynes, Lyon Viney Tingay had to endure. Well done Joe.

It's rarely ignored at all. We bring it up on here all the time and point to it as being the main reason we've been experience starved, and to be honest, continue to be.

[angrydee 842]

And you of course donated $2.7m to the MFC and was one of the main people rallying people in opposing the merger.

I think I recall your posts back then, telling us to refuse his money, which saved the club at the time and urging everyone to accept the merger.

You are obviously a fan of the fine job Zondy did for this club, nearly destroying it.

Unbelievable!!!!!

Spot on, Redleg. When Joe was knifed the club was solvent and had just played in a grand final. He saved this club and then Szondy amd Gardner drove us into the ground.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No reason not to believe him and it was confirmed by others.

We live in times when people look only for things that are negative or sinister and won't accept the simple explanations which are often the truth.

There is a Jewish footballer called Ezra Poyas who was drafted at # 22 in the 1999 draft and the urban myth that was going around for some time was that Gutnick prevented the club's recruiters because he didn't want to have a Jewish footballer playing on the sabbath for his club. Truth was the recruiters actually preferred Brad Green at # 19 because he was a better prospect and despite Gutnick's personal and religious beliefs, they had the final say on who they selected.

For once the recruiters were right but the myth persisted. Green played 254 games for the MFC and Poyas played 9 for the RFC.

How could the myth persist because Ezra Poyas was picked some years later in the PSD by Melbourne and there were no restrictions on his selection while at MFC?

[Go the Biff 3,360]

No reason not to believe him and it was confirmed by others.

Thanks WJ

[Guest]

Spot on, Redleg. When Joe was knifed the club was solvent and had just played in a grand final. He saved this club and then Szondy amd Gardner drove us into the ground.

I tend to agree. Joe actually had some spunk about him. He called out Ron Evans for his conflict of interest in that he was on the AFL Comission yet ran the company that provided catering to the MCG and Etihad. He told Wayne Jackson to stick it up his jumper when he spoke his mind. Plus he wasn't afraid of making the big calls i.e. while Balmey has turned out to be a pretty decent football manager, Gutnick was right to sack him in 1997.

[Redleg 40,065]

Spot on, Redleg. When Joe was knifed the club was solvent and had just played in a grand final. He saved this club and then Szondy amd Gardner drove us into the ground.

Spot on, Redleg. When Joe was knifed the club was solvent and had just played in a grand final. He saved this club and then Szondy amd Gardner drove us into the ground.

Thanks Angry I forgot about the GF in 2000. You would have to say reasonably successful on the field, in that era under his Chairmanship.

[dee-luded 2,959]

It feels to me like a lot of this 'May Be', because we do Not have our Own Training & Office facilities away from the 'G'...

... I'm getting the feeling that @ the MCG,, there are Far too many people who want to get involved 'Politically' within the club, in order to have their own Ego's polished in the City of Melbourne's finest address.

Lets get away from there & build a base where we can cultivate People who only want to Serve the Footy Club... that there only wish, is to give, & to Help...

I see many here who are more interested in just being right,,, & on Power trips, rather than caring for the betterment of the club.

Edited May 17, 2013 by dee-luded

[Dr. Gonzo 23,699]

This has been ignored for a long time but it is one of the major reasons we have no leadership at the club. We don't have any 200+ game players that are leqding our young brigade. Personally I lay a large chunk of blame on Gutnick for that mess.

You forgot the tax audits that Stynes, Lyon Viney Tingay had to endure. Well done Joe.

Ok so you blame the admin who revealed the infringements rather than those who actually infringed (and also tried to merge the club)?? Right.

I didn't know much about the behind the scenes stuff then (as I was too young to care) but I loved how Gutnick used to stand up for us in the media rather than let the club get trod on like pretty much every other President has since I've been watching.

[Whispering_Jack 29,177]

How could the myth persist because Ezra Poyas was picked some years later in the PSD by Melbourne and there were no restrictions on his selection while at MFC?

The myth persisted because it was promoted by Joe's opponents who gave it traction during the 2001 campaign to undermine him.

When Poyas was drafted by Melbourne, Gutnick was no longer at the club ... and it was not in the PSD, it was the 2003 rookie draft.

Ten years later, he's still playing good footy in the ammos.

[Wells 11 5,264]

Ok so you blame the admin who revealed the infringements rather than those who actually infringed (and also tried to merge the club)?? Right.

I didn't know much about the behind the scenes stuff then (as I was too young to care) but I loved how Gutnick used to stand up for us in the media rather than let the club get trod on like pretty much every other President has since I've been watching.

Gutnick DID stand up to the media Thank you Joe.

But when you look at what Pratt did at carlton and compare, its hard for me not to think about what Gutnick DIDNT do. He wanted to own and run the club....Pratt just wanted to support it. Pratt understood you have to play dirty to win this game i.e Judd , Gutnick thought he needed to be nice re telling the league our sins.

Had Gutnick stepped in, in the way ONLY HE could have at the time, and helped us into Westpac centre we'd still be hailing him as a hero. He donated big time and once more thank you Jo...but looking at what he gave as a percentage of his wealth, then a lot more have given a lot more and asked for no control over the way the club is run.

He was generous big time but demanded too much in return and above all else he missed a golden oppurtunity by playing small when he could have taken us across the divide. Thats how I see him.

[Swampfox 190]

Even sadder is that f'wit David King looks like he was right

I must be the only one around here that thinks David King is quite astute in his often controversial comments

Calls a spade and all that is quite often blunt and obvious to the unbiased eye

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You have demonstrated to me and most on here with this post, your clear hypocritical attitude.

You have said previously this Board was pathetic in not telling the AFL everything about the Dank affair and yet you condemn Joe for telling the truth to the AFL about systematic cheating on the salary cap. At the same time you don't mention those that were responsible for it, the Board at the time.

You attack him for his corporate life and I am not defending that or commenting on it, as I don't know all that you know, but you fail to mention the fact that he donated $2.7m to save the cub and opposed the merger with others like Brian Dixon.

For what it is worth I can give you another fact to digest, he is one of the biggest donors to Jewish and Non Jewish charities in Australia. He has personally helped many many families and individuals in Australia and there are plenty of hospitals and educational facilities that see him differently to you.

Why the f..k would anyone help this club when they are opened to this sort of garbage attack on them.

Please feel free to defame at your leisure.

Get over yourself Redleg.

Given the AFL came asking about Danks it was indeed pathetic that the Board did not know what was going on.

The AFL had no idea about any salary cap issues and Gutnick set this club back for dubious reasons.

Gutnicks time at MFC was divisive and at times destructive pushing for an EGM on the club mid season in 2001.

And it's great that he does give back to the community some of which he dubiously "gained" from mining company investors.

[Alotta 88]

I thought Gutnick was great for the club & never understood why we got rid of him - oh wait, establishment club of rich white boys from the eastern suburbs couldn't handle a little Jewish man running their club, that's right.

65% of the members who voted at the 2001 election preferred the alternative over Joe and his ticket. I was one of them.

I'm indifferent to the description "rich white boy from the eastern suburbs". It's true and I'm flattered.

But I'm disgusted by your labelling me and the many thousands of us who voted as I did as anti-Semites. You should be ashamed of yourself. You should apologise or the moderators should intervene.

Playing the bigotry card is the most sinister form of bigotry of them all.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,699]

65% of the members who voted at the 2001 election preferred the alternative over Joe and his ticket. I was one of them.

I'm indifferent to the description "rich white boy from the eastern suburbs". It's true and I'm flattered.

But I'm disgusted by your labelling me and the many thousands of us who voted as I did as anti-Semites. You should be ashamed of yourself. You should apologise or the moderators should intervene.

Playing the bigotry card is the most sinister form of bigotry of them all.

I didn't call anyone an anti-Semite so you come down from that high horse now. If you took offense sorry but that wasn't the intention.

So why did you vote against him? As I said before I wasn't aware of all the club politics at the time so am interested to here why he was so overwhelmingly voted out especially considering the horrible ineptness of the boards that followed.

[Whispering_Jack 29,177]

Get over yourself Redleg.

Given the AFL came asking about Danks it was indeed pathetic that the Board did not know what was going on.

The AFL had no idea about any salary cap issues and Gutnick set this club back for dubious reasons.

Gutnicks time at MFC was divisive and at times destructive pushing for an EGM on the club mid season in 2001.

And it's great that he does give back to the community some of which he dubiously "gained" from mining company investors.

Ugh.

There's so much wrong with this that it beggars belief.

I'll deal with only one point and that was the decision by Gutnick to reveal the salary cap breach. At the time, we were told that the fact that we came clean on the breach saved us from far more severe sanctions than we otherwise would have received. Gutnick's action was considered at the time to be an example of proper corporate governance.

The pros and cons of Gutnick's term can be debated long and hard but it was on his watch that we made our last grand final and it was after he was deposed that we fell into a fiscal black hole.

Life was a lot happier for Demon fans back in Joe's days even with those salary cap penalties.

[Alotta 88]

I didn't call anyone an anti-Semite so you come down from that high horse now. If you took offense sorry but that wasn't the intention.

So why did you vote against him? As I said before I wasn't aware of all the club politics at the time so am interested to here why he was so overwhelmingly voted out especially considering the horrible ineptness of the boards that followed.

I don't have to justify why I voted for the Szondy group.

You have to justify your claim that nearly 7000 of us "couldn't handle a little Jewish man running their Club".

Off you go...we're listening.

You disgust me.

[Demon Dynasty 17,091]

You have demonstrated to me and most on here with this post, your clear hypocritical attitude.

You have said previously this Board was pathetic in not telling the AFL everything about the Dank affair and yet you condemn Joe for telling the truth to the AFL about systematic cheating on the salary cap. At the same time you don't mention those that were responsible for it, the Board at the time.

You attack him for his corporate life and I am not defending that or commenting on it, as I don't know all that you know, but you fail to mention the fact that he donated $2.7m to save the cub and opposed the merger with others like Brian Dixon.

For what it is worth I can give you another fact to digest, he is one of the biggest donors to Jewish and Non Jewish charities in Australia. He has personally helped many many families and individuals in Australia and there are plenty of hospitals and educational facilities that see him differently to you.

Why the f..k would anyone help this club when they are opened to this sort of garbage attack on them.

Please feel free to defame at your leisure.

Correct. Only 2 ex players, Brian Dixon with the assistance of Alan Johnson, were openly/publicly opposed to the merger and were involved in the formative stages of the anti merger campaign/union prior to Diamond Joe entering the fray.

No other ex players publicly/openly expressed their opposition to the merger until roughly a week or so before the infamous vote at Dallas Brooks Hall (Wells and possibly 1 or 2 others) and on the night of the vote itself (Barassi).

Side Note to Supermercardo: You might wish to update your "mergers" page on the Demonwiki site which mentions "Brian Dixon" and "Robert Flower" as the most prominent opponents of the union. This should read "Brian Dixon" and "Alan Johnson".

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Ugh.

There's so much wrong with this that it beggars belief.

I'll deal with only one point and that was the decision by Gutnick to reveal the salary cap breach. At the time, we were told that the fact that we came clean on the breach saved us from far more severe sanctions than we otherwise would have received. Gutnick's action was considered at the time to be an example of proper corporate governance.

The pros and cons of Gutnick's term can be debated long and hard but it was on his watch that we made our last grand final and it was after he was deposed that we fell into a fiscal black hole.

Life was a lot happier for Demon fans back in Joe's days even with those salary cap penalties.

And you spend your time potting Caro for not having the facts.

I am glad that Gutnick could practice good corporate governance at that time. He seemed to struggle so often with the concept in other areas. We certainly did fall in our performances after 2000. I would like to thank him for salary cap penalties we endured, the disruptive 2001 election.

The irony was that the FD delivered notwithstanding the difficult relationship that was endured with Gutnick.

[Return to Glory 8,213]

I don't quite get the venom towards Joe. At least he had a personality and a zest that has been missing badly.....and he saved the club.