Richmond Dees

[Hannibal 5,814]

We all had high hopes for 2012 and there's been one team that has been tracking along a similar path to the Dees, but they've been that bit behind. Until 2012. To our collective horror the Tigers went pass Melbourne. And right now they're the flavour of the month with many predicting a long awaited finals berth in 2013. And it's not hard to see why they were better in 2012 with two comprehensive wins over the hapless Demons.

I've done a combo side for 2013 based on exposed form from 2012 and could only fit 8 Demons into the collective 22 - 14 Tigers. I tried to do it as objectively as I could, but no doubt some supporters won't agree. But the 2012 ladder suggests that I wouldn't be far wrong, although I've included Dawes, as this is done as a "now" team projecting forward.

Newman Frawley T. McDonald

Grigg Rance J. Grimes

Deledio Cotchin Houli

Martin Clark Howe

Nahas Riewoldt Dawes

R/ Maric Tuck Jones

I/C Sylvia, Edwards, Foley, Jackson

I like D. Grimes, but he didn't play enough. If Miller got games at Richmond then Dawes certainly makes this side. Some Richmond supporters would baulk at Tom McDonald, but a third place in the Melbourne B&F and a 5th placing in the RS award is enough for me to put him ahead of the likes of Grimes, Ellis, Morris, Batchelor, and Dea.

The challenge for the MFC is to make large inroads quickly. Can we overtake Richmond in the space of 12 months and what needs to happen in order for this to take place ?

Newman Chaplin Morris

Nicholson Frawley Garland

Batchelor Rance Grimes

Watts McDonald Dunn

Houli Cotchin Deledio

Howe Jones Grimes

Martin Vickery Grigg

Sylvia Clark Blease

Nahas Riewoldt Edwards

Byrnes Dawes Pedersen

Maric Tuck Foley

Jamar Trengove Viney

Griffiths, Conca, Ellis, King

McKenzie, Toumpas, Rodan Tapscott

How quickly can Melbourne bridge the gap, or overtake the Tiges ?

Can Clark play 20 games ?

What sort of impact can Viney, Toumpas, Kent, Terlich and M. Jones make ? Or Taggert, Tynan and Evans. Can some of them become fixtures in the best 22 ?

Can Dawes be the player he was recruited to be now that he'll be the "close to goal" power forward that best suits him ?

Can Byrnes kick the small forward goals we lack ?

Can Trengove overcome the stress fracture and have the breakout year we crave ?

Can Pedersen be the third tall forward we recruited him to be ?

Can Blease fulfill the glimpses of talent he's shown ?

Will the game-plan become second nature ? Will we have the run and spread we missed last year ? Will our fitness and strength be of the required standard ?

There are lots to ponder and we need a lot to go right, but if most of these things happen it's amazing how a side can start gathering momentum and surprise the footy world. I have a feeling that our best 22 will look quite different to the one I've posted and the one most supporters expect. I can't remember this many list changes in an off-season and I'm actually really excited by the year ahead. It's a fascinating period for me.

Melbourne's and Richmond's progress in particular fascinates me. I hate their guts and will be gutted if they continue to head our club on the ladder. Of course it's not just Richmond, the only thing I care about is a flag, so I want us to overcome every side, but they're the closest team to have mirrored our recent fortunes.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Main point of difference I feel is the midfield. I think our back six could be stronger than thiers, and we lacked an effective small forward in 2012.

If we can bridge the midfield gap my feeling is that our 22 will be stronger at the bottom end. In short we need a midfileder to perform like Cotchin and have solid and capable ball winners around him.

[Josh 1,420]

I have been thinking along similar lines, and IMO our KPP down the spine look better overall its our midfield that is far behind in talent, not in potential though. For me its weather Howe can continue to improve, Jones can stay consistent, Trengrove and Grimes lift another level and Viney have an impact

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

"Deledio Cotchin Houli"

Says it all really.

[dl4e 5,851]

Interesting. At this stage I would say our half back and half forward lines are better, but they would hold sway in other areas. Interchange is too hard to put a line through.

[CBDees 3,167]

MELBOURNE TIGERS!

[CBDees 3,167]

Just as long as we don't go back to being called the 'Melbourne Fuschias'!

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

An interesting read Ben and I think you're analysis of who would get into the best team is pretty spot on and my only real debating point would be Dawes v Vickery because Vickery is a far better ruckman than Dawes, but that is on the edges and pretty much moot (my other would be McKenzie v Jackson but who cares).

About 2 years ago posting as "Snoopy" I started the thread "It's the Midfield Stupid" after we were smashed by the Hawks in R2 and it started with the quote below:

Rhino's excellent post highlights just how inexperienced we were compared to the Hawks on Sunday. But it only tells a part of the story. There are two other fundamentals a team needs to be genuinely successful.

You need a dominant midfield.

You need stars.

The link to the tread is here: http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/25165-its-the-midfield-stupid/

My genuine footy education was started by Craig Cameron and I remember waxing lyrical about the depth we had at the club in about 2006 and suggesting this was where we had an advantage over the competition. He set me straight about the value of Stars v Depth, a point that I think pretty much everyone understands. The dominant midfield concept has been mine since I saw Sheldon, Marcou, Buckley, Catoggio and the other Carlton mids tear up oppositions in their era when it was generally thought that spines were the most important thing. Of course footy was different then but one of my regrets over the journey is our complete failure to recruit and develop any star mids, let alone develop a quality midfield.

When you look at your best side of these two clubs we have one mid in them. Our plight is highlighted by your placement of Grigg on a HFF for Richmond's team whereas he'd be close to our best mid.

My view is that Melbourne is like a donut. I think we are comfortably top 8 material down back and up forward (now that we've rebuilt our forward line) but we still have no midfield. In 2008 we picked up Strauss, Blease and Bennell and passed on Beams, Redden and Sloane which I think was the greatest failing of recruiting and list management we've seen for some years particularly as I know we rated Beams and Reddan highly. The following year we picked up Scully, Trengove and Gysberts as the "fix" for our midfield but of course history shows that as being a failure.

I think the FD has done a wonderful job with list management this year but unlike many who are anticipating a quick turnaround I think we are still quite a few years away. We probably still have the worst midfield in the competition and until that changes I think you'll be hearing "Yellow and Black" when we play Richmond for a few years yet.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,750]

The interesting thing about Richmond is that they took Miller and A Maric. It's another way of saying Richmond's top end is good, but they fall away very quickly after that.

[old dee 23,787]

The interesting thing about Richmond is that they took Miller and A Maric. It's another way of saying Richmond's top end is good, but they fall away very quickly after that.

I agree injuries like we had in 2012 would turn them quickly into a bottom 4 side

[beelzebub 23,348]

I m must confess i almost hurled my Wheaties upon noticing the threads description but it does make for a reasonably useful and timely comparison.

Im not nearly so conservative ( was going to suggest pessimistic , but some folks opinions are fleshed by explanation , so Ill reserve that ) as to think we wont actually be competitive in the middle come 2013. We wont be giant killers ( well we will be GWS Giant killers ) but we will change our game demonstrably with an effective if not polished midfield.

Im going to suggest we will best the Toiges. They seem awfully wasteful often given the talent they command. They seem incapable of finishing off some games ( indeed some teams) where they ought. ( then again they had a couple of good wins in 2012 )

I think where we will best them might take a season grant you ) is that we are creating many more roads to goal than the Tigers. They are extremely Riewoldt centric.

As to the OP.. I know its been done to death but I wouldnt be able to warrant Sylvias inclusion ( in composite team ) as he just hasnt the runs ( consistently ) on the board.

As to Dees v Toiges.. Im not sure they will cover our forwards sufficiently ( in fact many teams will struggle )

[old55 23,548]

I think the FD has done a wonderful job with list management this year but unlike many who are anticipating a quick turnaround I think we are still quite a few years away. We probably still have the worst midfield in the competition and until that changes I think you'll be hearing "Yellow and Black" when we play Richmond for a few years yet.

Agree. Richmond are Cotchin and Deledio ahead of us and that's a very substantial lead. After that it's pretty well matched. Sure we've got Viney and Toumpas coming through now but they've got Vlastuin and Conca in the hopper and who's to say at this stage who'll turn out better? They seem to have Dom Tyson on ice for next year but there's plenty of water to flow under that bridge. They've also plugged key holes really well recently with I.Maric and Chaplin and they look solid enough ruck, forward and back. I think the Tigers are travelling pretty well.

[satyricon 267]

This is a bit of a strange topic,

When the heat was applied did the Richmond midfield stand up and get them to the finals, NO,

Did Melbourne make the finals NO,

Is the Richmond midfield better? on paper it is supposedly, in the heat of battle?

Personally I don't give a toss about Richmond

Only care as to whether MFC improve in 2013.

Comparison is futile, what if Deledio and Maric go down with season ending injuries a few games in this year, where will that leave Richmond?

If this happens and we go past them is it because we have improved? No not really

[Damo 3,355]

I would hope that Watts would be on the list if not "now" then at least by the end of the year.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I think the FD has done a wonderful job with list management this year but unlike many who are anticipating a quick turnaround I think we are still quite a few years away. We probably still have the worst midfield in the competition and until that changes I think you'll be hearing "Yellow and Black" when we play Richmond for a few years yet.

There's no doubt that the midfield is the key to success, as well as our glaring weakness, but theoretically it should be the easiest and quickest part of the ground to fix.

The following will rotate through the midfield at some point: Jones, Grimes, McKenzie, Trengove, Viney, Sylvia, Toumpas, Howe, Blease, Rodan, Kent, Barry, Taggert, Evans, Magner and possibly Couch.

We need some genuinely talented mids to emerge from this group of players. If we've drafted well and if we develop well I don't think it has to take a "few years". If you look at the careers of recent draftees such as Beams, Sidebottom, Shuey, Zaharakis, Fyfe, Rockliff, Redden, Sloane to name but a few, you'll note that all are really good players by their third year and many of them significantly important by their second.

If we've drafted well and if we develop well I hold the view that we can turn things around far quicker than many think. Quality youth can be a very infectious and positive force within a footy club. I don't see finals in 2013, but I think it's a real possibility in 2014. I maintain that 10 wins next year isn't a pipedream.

[beelzebub 23,348]

and changing the efficiency and effectiveness of the midfield benefits the other ends too.

point being... our game can change around a bit quicker than some are forecasting

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

The following will rotate through the midfield at some point: Jones, Grimes, McKenzie, Trengove, Viney, Sylvia, Toumpas, Howe, Blease, Rodan, Kent, Barry, Taggert, Evans, Magner and possibly Couch.

I don't think it has to take a "few years". If you look at the careers of recent draftees such as Beams, Sidebottom, Shuey, Zaharakis, Fyfe, Rockliff, Redden, Sloane to name but a few, you'll note that all are really good players by their third year and many of them significantly important by their second.

I maintain that 10 wins next year isn't a pipedream.

Yes it can turn around quickly but sometimes it doesn't. In the Trengove thread you've used exactly the opposite argument to suggest Trengove is not abnormal. Viney and Toumpas seem to be our best chances of "star" mids and they are 3 years away. Many of the players you've quoted from other clubs have had terrific players around them, we don't. Let's hope we can pull a couple out of the bag but you and I are in agreement that it could be another 3 years. Given we've been crap for 6 that's a long wait.

I'd have thought 10 wins is quite possible given that we have 2 games against GWS, GCS, BL, WB and Freo.. That's 8 very winnable games if we are any good and not exceptional particularly seeing we won 8.5 games in each of 2010 and 2011.. Anything less would be disappointing.

[nutbean 8,838]

Stars VS Depth..

That's always been my hobby horse, Fan.

I tend to believe that if you can get two stars into the midfield it can have the effect of bringing other lesser lights into the game and on occasions help them develop into more than just depth footballers. With the pressure off by being the 3rd or 4th best midfielder it makes it easier to shine. I have no doubt that with Tigers Delidio, Cotchin and Martin it certainly makes it easier for the likes of Grigg, Concha and Houli ( and to a lesser extent Tuck and Foley who are good players in their own right) to shine as they get lesser attention/opponents in the match ups.

I may get howled down but give me a couple of stars and some honest triers in the midfield over a uniform and even bunch of footballers any day.

I think Beams shined this year as he is still third cab off the rank behind Swan and Pendles.

Develop some stars and it helps others around them.

[old dee 23,787]

Stars VS Depth..

That's always been my hobby horse, Fan.

I tend to believe that if you can get two stars into the midfield it can have the effect of bringing other lesser lights into the game and on occasions help them develop into more than just depth footballers. With the pressure off by being the 3rd or 4th best midfielder it makes it easier to shine. I have no doubt that with Tigers Delidio, Cotchin and Martin it certainly makes it easier for the likes of Grigg, Concha and Houli ( and to a lesser extent Tuck and Foley who are good players in their own right) to shine as they get lesser attention/opponents in the match ups.

I may get howled down but give me a couple of stars and some honest triers in the midfield over a uniform and even bunch of footballers any day.

I think Beams shined this year as he is still third cab off the rank behind Swan and Pendles.

Develop some stars and it helps others around them.

I Think that is beyond doubt nutbean.

The trick is getting the "coupleof Stars"

[Biffen 12,943]

I Think that is beyond doubt nutbean.

The trick is getting the "coupleof Stars"

I think we've got a whole studio of Hollywood starlets waiting to emerge in to the big time.

Who gets there soonest will depend on the great injury god.

I reckon Jetta ,Trengove,Grimes ,Watts ,Gawn,Tapscott and maybe Strauss and Evans could be the big improvers.

Sylvia will give us the usual inconsistent stuff.

Viney and Toumpas may not be as quick to come on as we all hope.(As is the way with top ten picks).

If we get on a roll towards the end of the year (with an injury list smaller than a cricket team)we could kick some serious wankers who hate us in the arse.

Remember this about us as a club-

we are a crap team most of the time but when we get to finals our record of wins /losses is pretty good.

The supporters come out of the woodwork ,the vibe rebuilds.

Having said that I reckon we will miss the finals this year by a game or three.

2014 will be the time to shine.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Yes it can turn around quickly but sometimes it doesn't. In the Trengove thread you've used exactly the opposite argument to suggest Trengove is not abnormal. Viney and Toumpas seem to be our best chances of "star" mids and they are 3 years away. Many of the players you've quoted from other clubs have had terrific players around them, we don't. Let's hope we can pull a couple out of the bag but you and I are in agreement that it could be another 3 years. Given we've been crap for 6 that's a long wait.

I'd have thought 10 wins is quite possible given that we have 2 games against GWS, GCS, BL, WB and Freo.. That's 8 very winnable games if we are any good and not exceptional particularly seeing we won 8.5 games in each of 2010 and 2011.. Anything less would be disappointing.

Trengove's second year had him well placed to take the same steps that the others have, but I'm not sure what went wrong, other than the usual theories. But yes, for every Judd, Buckley, Shuey, Rockliff, Fyfe there are a Hayes, Simpson, Boyd, Bartel, Voss, and Swan who take longer. Michael Voss had a really disappointing third year where he averaged 14 disposals from 12 games. In his 4th year he was a star (averaged 23 disposals and kicked 30 goals) and in his 5th he won the Brownlow.

Not withstanding his excellent year, Jones needs to get more consistent, Trengove needs to take the step he can, Sylvia needs to finally have the year he's capable of, and Viney and Toumpas have already experienced playing against men. And I think Kent will surprise. He's hard at it with pace and a great kick. I had a PM with a West Coast supporter who's played against him (on him) and he reckons he's a steal for the Dees. He rates him very highly. If you look at some West Coast threads from back in July he's talked up as a likely draft choice and many couldn't believe he wasn't playing for WA.

2013 should be a good platform to see where the improvement is going to come from.

One last comment - the thing with Viney and Toumpas is that unlike Watts, Andrew Walker, Dan Hannebery, or Callan Ward, who all made their debuts while still at school, they'll be playing 2013 as 19 year olds, having already had experience against men. Nathan Buckley started at 20 and was runner-up in Brisbane's B&F. Leigh Matthews won a B&F as a 19 year old in a premiership side. And yes, it was his third year in the VFL and I'm not suggesting they'll be the equivalent of the best player to ever play the game, or even in Buckley's league, I'm just making the point that as 19 year olds I think you'll find they influence games far more than the usual debutantes. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. They make take longer to find their feet than I expect. And that's fine, as I'm sure in time they'll be excellent players.

[The Chazz 4,077]

...

Not withstanding his excellent year, Jones needs to get more consistent, Trengove needs to take the step he can, Sylvia needs to finally have the year he's capable of, and Viney and Toumpas have already experienced playing against men. And I think Kent will surprise. He's hard at it with pace and a great kick. I had a PM with a West Coast supporter who's played against him (on him) and he reckons he's a steal for the Dees. He rates him very highly. If you look at some West Coast threads from back in July he's talked up as a likely draft choice and many couldn't believe he wasn't playing for WA...

Why am I going to do this, I know where it will head, but here goes...

Jones needs to get more consistent? I thougth his last 18 months - 2 years of footy has been pretty bloody consistent, and am very excited at what 2013 will bring for Chunk. The gap between his best and worst is probably the smallest at the club, and has been that way for a good couple of seasons. If there's one bloke that needs to get more consistent, it's...

Sylvia. I don't want him to have the year he's capable of, I want him to have the rest of his career that way. Different to Jones, Sylvia's consistency, and the gap between good and evil is as far apart as heavan and hell.

And Ben, please tell me you're basing your opinion on Kent from more than just a 2 minute highlight package and what some West Coast supporter has said on a chat room, who played a game against him once and got a hiding. Gee, a few years ago I played seniors against Alik Magin and he kicked 3 on my in the first half. Sure, I walked off thinking the kid was very good, but he hasn't really cut it at AFL level. I've played against better kids/blokes who have never seen an AFL list. I do take on your opinions BH, but please, give me something else to get excited about Kent. Have you seen games he's played? Anything!

[Hannibal 5,814]

Billy, we don't have productive conversations.

I'll leave it there.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Billy, we don't have productive conversations.

I'll leave it there.

Thanks BH, a very (un)productive response.

I'd like to see if you can step away from the counter of your Mr Whippy van and give me some response to my Kent comments. Cheers.

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

I don't think there is anything you've said that disagrees anything I've said. We just don't know if or when they will come good and while you are being the optimist I'm remembering Scully/Trengove, McLean/Sylvia, Morton/Grimes. All the guys who were going to fix our midfield and none have - yet. I'm in the camp now that says "I'll get excited when they start playing good AFL footy". I doesn't mean I won't enjoy the journey but I'll keep a lid on it.

I think hoping for Sylvia is fraught with danger and if he plays well good on him but he's more unreliable than Travis and really hasn't had a good year yet. Trengove IMO was clearly effected by being made captain and I think it was a stupid decision but the balance is that making Grimes captain was very good.

And finally I think Watts has the ability to be the star/elite midfielder we crave and I just hope he gets the chance. One AFL coach agrees with me but believe it or not I've held that view for about a year, documented elsewhere.

Oh, and I'm also very happy with with Kent but more with just the "type". He looks like a genuine mid and we haven't recruited nearly enough of these over the journey. I like the feedback you have and I like the highlights but I'll wait until he's played well before I get excited. I like Taggert too.

Agree with all you've said Nutbean, lets hope Ben's optimism comes through.