It's the midfield, stupid - reprise

[old55 23,572]

I think with the addition of Mitch Clark we're reasonably set backline, forwardline and ruck. There's some uncertainty re crumbing forward and small back but there are options with Davey, Wonna and Lawrence and Bennell, Strauss and Nicholson. I'm hoping we draft to address this are this year.

Midfield class remains the big problem, made worse with Scully's exit, and really that's where flags are won. We have Jack Viney coming with 2012 1st rounder and he will help. We've got the Scully picks intact and I think they've got to used to address the midfield star question. I think there's 4 options:

1. Mini-draft 2012 - we're going to be as well placed as anyone to trade into this draft (see Compo picks thread) if GWS continues to want picks. If there's O'Meara or Crouch types next year we should be heading the bidding. GWS will plunder more players next year so more compo picks - possibly in the 1st round will appear. The problem is we're waiting another year for the player to arrive.

2. Use the picks in the alleged "super-draft", they're likely to be around 11-15 if we finish mid-table. Very good players can be drafted in that range but the super-stars are at the pointy end.

3. Go hard after a marquee player - Scott Pendlebury or Brendan Goddard (is he really a mid?). If we're at 92% of the cap then we've got about $800K a year head-room - it would take at least that to attract someone like Pendlebury - minimum $4M over 5 years - Collingwood would struggle to match this under the cap although they have other ways - a one-club Collingwood star is a made man for life. We'd be at the cap and we're going to need to pay our own upcoming stars more too - it would be a tough juggling act - we'd definitely need to move on some mid-pay-range players to free a further $5-600K which should be possible. GWS will be all over Pendlebury too after he signed the one year deal last year and we wouldn't be able to use the draft to get him because GWS would be lurking and, like in the Clark deal, Collingwood would get compensation if he went to them in the draft.

4. Target a Victorian who is homesick. A Gold Coast recruit coming out of contract? Apart from Josh Caddy there's not much there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_Football_Club

Dion Prestia has been re-signed and the other mids at the pointy end aren't Victorians. The other possible candidate is Andrew Gaff at West Coast, but like with Pendlebury at Collingwood, star players rarely leave big clubs.

[Diablo Deemon 220]

You have identified the last piece of the jigsaw an elite midfield.

I think the club has decided finally to get serious about development I think bringing in all this 1st round talent has been great.

But our development of kids compared to the best has been poor.

2012 mini draft - is too far off cant play in 2013, have to wait till 2014 to get them out on the field that's a long time to wait to see an investment come to fruition.

I wouldn't use next mini draft unless there is an exceptional option.

Trade for an elite mid - I think we need 2 more elite mids aged under 23 ideally. I look at Hawthorn, Collingwood, Geelong they have 4 to 5 each.

I think we have Maloney who is inconsistent but a good clearance player.

Trengove will most likely make it to elite staus then the rest are honest but they're no certainties.

Pendlebury is a fascinating one only signed for a year which is unusual I think he may be lured to GWS for money we cant compete with.

Otherwise I don't see him leaving a team which is competing for premierships in Collingwood to come to a club that wants to compete in MFC.

Goddard is too old for where we are 27 he'd contribute to make us a bottom 8 side and would be too old by the time we were ready to be a top 4 side.

I also think Goddard is overrated as a midfielder he really is a rebounding defender HBF.

Gaff is in the same case as Pendlebury.

I would start with the following hit list:

Boak - 23 Dangerfield - 21

Gray - 23 Caddy - 19

Hartlett - 21

Rockliff -21

Edited October 23, 2011 by Diablo Deemon

[Whispering_Jack 30,104]

There are other ways to improve our midfield in addition to recruiting.

Our players can improve naturally and through the benefit of coaching which will prepare them to their optimum both physically and mentally.

The midfield unit(s) will also improve with the development of coaching strategies. Over the past two seasons we have often had a winning ruck which hasn't often been able to translate into winning at stoppages. A different coach and a new approach can change things substantially. It's up to Mark Neeld and his midfield coaches to get the best out of a division that has been functioning poorly for some time.

[H_T 3,047]

My favourite topic of 2011.... .

I'm thinking (1) or (2) old55. If we're to get a Pendlebury (I'm now luke warm on Goddard), we'd have to trade out someone of reasonable quality in return with a 1st round pick (ie. like a Sylvia).

Then J.Viney would fall to our 2nd round pick.

edit:

There is WJ's option of improving the current - but to elite midfield of the comp ? That is the question. And I don't see it happening. The best chance IMO to obtain elite mid(s) or one of the best (if not the best) midfields in the comp is to obtain star quality. To put it bluntly there is only two options which best serves this purpose:

1/Mini Draft - via compo pick(s) bid

2/Trade

*(and 3/ if you get lucky with a mid first round pick -unlikely)

J.Viney will be our 'first pick' in the 2012 Draft. Btw, can we use our first pick for trade purposes and J.Viney be used with our next available pick in the Draft (ie. 2nd pick ) ?

edit 2:

Vary rarely do star quality trades come off. There was Judd for Kennedy and picks exchanged. So the more likely scenario for us to be in prime position would be the Mini Draft IMO atm.

Edited October 23, 2011 by H_T

[Redleg 40,917]

J.Viney will be our 'first pick' in the 2012 Draft. Btw, can we use our first pick for trade purposes and J.Viney be used with our next available pick in the Draft (ie. 2nd pick ) ?

No.

[H_T 3,047]

No.

So we can only trade with our second pick and beyond, yes ? (first round pick is off the table).

Thanks.

[dee-luded 2,959]

So we can only trade with our second pick and beyond, yes ? (first round pick is off the table).

Thanks.

Father/Son nominations are taken immediately preceding the trade week, so to sort out this very issue.

[old55 23,572]

So we can only trade with our second pick and beyond, yes ? (first round pick is off the table).

My assumption is the 2 compo picks should go close to getting a deal done. The key starting point is convincing the player to come to MFC - without that there's no deal - once that's done it's negotiation.

[H_T 3,047]

My assumption is the 2 compo picks should go close to getting a deal done. The key starting point is convincing the player to come to MFC - without that there's no deal - once that's done it's negotiation.

Yeah, I was just referring to that first pick cannot be used any other way other than to be used for J.Viney in draft.

I agree, that the 2 compo's - whether by trade or mini-draft bid, should go close to getting a deal.

[dee-luded 2,959]

It may have been able to be trade it off this year? But I don't know for sure.

This trading of future picks needs to be clarified, as well as the compensation picks and the priority picks. There's too much confusion amongst supporters regarding this 'picks' area.

[H_T 3,047]

If it is points (3) or (4) of the OP. Like GWS, our club needs to be proactive in our own little 'window of poaching'.

If so, I just hope the required recruiting staff aren't checking in at $91/room.....

I hope the club is ruthless enough....it's what every Melbourne supporter would want...

[Akum 2,660]

... We've got the Scully picks intact and I think they've got to used to address the midfield star question. I think there's 4 options: 1. Mini-draft 2012 - we're going to be as well placed as anyone to trade into this draft (see Compo picks thread) if GWS continues to want picks ... 2. Use the picks in the alleged "super-draft", they're likely to be around 11-15 if we finish mid-table. Very good players can be drafted in that range but the super-stars are at the pointy end. 3. Go hard after a marquee player - Scott Pendlebury or Brendan Goddard ... 4. Target a Victorian who is homesick ...

Great OP. My only quibble is that I doubt that the compo picks will do it to get us an A+ mid, whichever of the 4 options we use. As others have said, we turned down picks 8 & 9 in a reasonably good draft for Trengove at 2, and other clubs aren't likely to do the same.

IMO the only way we'll get to the pointy end of the draft, or stand any chance of getting a marquee mid, or get an A-grade homesick Victorian, is to trade someone like Jamar to a club who needs him even more than we do.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

There are other ways to improve our midfield in addition to recruiting.

Our players can improve naturally and through the benefit of coaching which will prepare them to their optimum both physically and mentally.

The midfield unit(s) will also improve with the development of coaching strategies. Over the past two seasons we have often had a winning ruck which hasn't often been able to translate into winning at stoppages. A different coach and a new approach can change things substantially. It's up to Mark Neeld and his midfield coaches to get the best out of a division that has been functioning poorly for some time.

Yeah people (myself included) sometimes lose sight of this. They feel the only way to inject class into a unit is to literally inject from the draft. Often, and especially with such a young group the natural progression of the player can cover some holes. And of course new coaches/structures of coaching.

And Collingwood's midfield coach imparting his knowledge on our group won't hurt either.

[rpfc 28,418]

I realise that there will be gradual improvement in the group, but we lost class and got those picks.

I want those picks to get us that class back.

We need to get an elite talent - even if they cannot play until 2014.

Trade or Mini-draft.

Then the Nat Draft.

In that order.

[old55 23,572]

There are other ways to improve our midfield in addition to recruiting.

Our players can improve naturally and through the benefit of coaching which will prepare them to their optimum both physically and mentally.

The midfield unit(s) will also improve with the development of coaching strategies. Over the past two seasons we have often had a winning ruck which hasn't often been able to translate into winning at stoppages. A different coach and a new approach can change things substantially. It's up to Mark Neeld and his midfield coaches to get the best out of a division that has been functioning poorly for some time.

Yeah that's absolutely necessary too and maybe Trengove will be Bartel, Viney - Selwood, McKenzie - Ling, Sylvia - Chapman, Gysberts - Corey, Grimes - Kelly, Blease - Varcoe. You'd be counting on all that happening if you reckon we don't need more midfield star power.

The key aspect with most of these ideas is getting the player across the line - if that happens the 2 compo picks are enough, if not - then they're not. Work on this needs to start now if we;'re going to attract a marquee player, a young star or convince a star draftee to nominate for the 2012 MD.

Edited October 23, 2011 by old55

[Slartibartfast 17,273]

I think it's purely a matter of working out which is the "best" option and then working down.

First, target the player(s) you'd want and see if any are prepared to move (Pendlebury). A Victorian source midfielder is extremely unlikely, who was the last one that moved within Victoria?

Second, target an interstate mid that might want to come home. Very rare circumstance.

Third work out who is in the MD. If that offers a better option than your ND picks, go hard.

Forth, use your ND picks.

You'd have to think the first two options won't happen because they very rarely do. Elite talent usually loves the current club and the club looks after them really well. For MFC the best result would be to get someone of appropriate age. The MD is the most likely option because we are well placed but pushes the arrival of that player right out.

WJ's comments, while accurate, will happen anyway and are independent of the options above. I see midfield class as our most glaring need regardless of any improvement in our current midfield. Our other structural weaknesses (small forward) are one's we can cover without reference to comp picks.

[Axis of Bob 11,809]

I have long been in the camp that we need an elite midfielder to win a flag.

What does Geelong's success this year tell us?

After Ablett left, their midfield looked good, but it was definitely a rung below Collingwood's. Selwood, Bartel and Kelly were their best three this year. Compare that to Swan, Pendlebury and Thomas and they don’t look fantastic. Certainly not a lot of X-factor, but Geelong had strong, dependable, if not spectacular, midfielders that consistently won the hard ball.

Pendlebury and Thomas were top 5 picks, but Selwood, Bartel and Kelly were all in about the area where our compo picks will be next year.

So, depending on the quality of the draft, we may be better taking two good, solid, but pure, midfielders in the 2012 draft rather than get one star. Why?

• The draft is supposed to be deep, so we should get good players with the compo picks.
  
• We may not necessarily need the star player in the midfield. Geelong has shown it’s possible.
  
• I think our midfield is shallow in quality numbers, as much as it lacks a star. This, however, can be fixed more easily with free agency coming in.
  
• The timeline for our premiership tilt may not align with the 2012 MD, since that player won’t become the elite mid we want until about 2017/18.
  

But I agree that we do need to bolster our midfield at some point. Structurally, with Clark, we look like we may have a lot of bases covered and we have a great depth of talent on the list.

I’m not set one way or the other, but I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as it was 6 months ago.

Grimes, for me, is the smokey in the midfield. He can win the hard ball and has the combination of speed and endurance, along with a big body, that could bode very well the way the game is heading. But there’s a massive if involved .......

[sylvinator 96]

We may not necessarily need the star player in the midfield. Geelong has shown it’s possible

Totally off the mark. Geelong have several star players in their midfield. Bartel and Selwood are both in the best 10-20 players in the AFL, James Kelly is a star in his own right, with All Australian this year. Plus Chapman who played a lot of midfield this year.

To win a premiership you need AT LEAST 2 midfielders who are considered in the best 10-15 players in the entire AFL. Look at every premiership team in the past 15 years and they have at least 2 midfielders who in that year were in the best dozen or so players in the league

Without a great midfield, we will not win a premiership.

[furious d 464]

The first decision we have to make is whether to activate our compo picks or not. Has to be done before the season starts. Activating at least 1 of them is a no brainer, the one tied to our ladder position might as well be activated asap. The mid first round pick will still have currency for several years and I can see arguements for and against activating it.

GC are probably in the box seat to nab pick 1 in next years minidraft again. They have 2 end of round 1 compo picks, a low pick and possible priority pick, Brisbane will have an end of round 1 compo pick, a low pick and a possible priority pick. Port could have 2 top 5 picks and if the bulldogs finish below us they might be able to outbid us also. We are no certainties to be able to get into the next mini draft.

We will have the cap space to attract a player and the compo picks don't hurt when dealing with another club, but I still couldn't see us getting an elite player without giving up a lot and paying way overs in salary. I'd rather go the draft route personally. We might be able to fit a Pendles into our cap now but what happens in a few years when our kids want a bigger slice of the pie. I want a wide open window that lasts and I think our best chance at that is through the draft.

I'd activate both picks next year, play trade week by ear like we did this year and only swoop if there's a bargain that fits into our plan. If not, Jack Viney and 2 more quality kids isn't a bad result.

[praha 11,240]

We had a perfect blueprint for our midfield.

Enter: GWS.

[rpfc 28,418]

We had a perfect blueprint for our midfield. Enter: GWS.

Yes, but we have been KOTD with Viney on his way and if we can get something of equal quality from trading the comp picks we got from GWS then we will be ahead.

And it must be reminded that the hole left by the-one-that-left allowed us to get a power forward that we might not have been able to get in the years that follow.

Everything happens for a reason...

[timD 994]

Totally off the mark. Geelong have several star players in their midfield. Bartel and Selwood are both in the best 10-20 players in the AFL, James Kelly is a star in his own right, with All Australian this year. Plus Chapman who played a lot of midfield this year.

To win a premiership you need AT LEAST 2 midfielders who are considered in the best 10-15 players in the entire AFL. Look at every premiership team in the past 15 years and they have at least 2 midfielders who in that year were in the best dozen or so players in the league

Without a great midfield, we will not win a premiership.

I think you are totally off the mark!

Actually, I think that you have just got the definition of "star" wrong. Bartell is not a star in the same way (or to the same degree) that Kerr is not a star. Both are bloody good players. Stars are rare - players like Judd, Ablett, Franklin, Reiwolt are rare.

I've been in the "star" camp for a long time and am only leaving it due to necessity - I don't think we are going to get one through drafting that will be ready for the "push". We need a midfield that pushed Jones and Moloney to bench players picked only after the core mids are injured. That means greater depth of talent, so I'd activate the compo picks for next year's draft and load up then.

[rpfc 28,418]

I think you are totally off the mark!

Actually, I think that you have just got the definition of "star" wrong. Bartell is not a star in the same way (or to the same degree) that Kerr is not a star. Both are bloody good players. Stars are rare - players like Judd, Ablett, Franklin, Reiwolt are rare.

I've been in the "star" camp for a long time and am only leaving it due to necessity - I don't think we are going to get one through drafting that will be ready for the "push". We need a midfield that pushed Jones and Moloney to bench players picked only after the core mids are injured. That means greater depth of talent, so I'd activate the compo picks for next year's draft and load up then.

Well, whatever you call these people, we need more Bartels...

And Picks 11 to 15 is very hit and miss when it comes to getting the sort of talent you are talking about.

[furious d 464]

Well, whatever you call these people, we need more Bartels...

And Picks 11 to 15 is very hit and miss when it comes to getting the sort of talent you are talking about.

Top 5 is hit and miss rpfc, even in recent years.

Our picks next year could start as high as 8 and that is exactly where Bartel was taken.

[rpfc 28,418]

Top 5 is hit and miss rpfc, even in recent years.

Our picks next year could start as high as 8 and that is exactly where Bartel was taken.

It may seem like that, but it stands to reason and fact that the pointy end of the draft has the best players. And if we finish 8th (and PA, Bris, or GC don't get comp picks for being awful) we will have picks 11, 12, and 13.

To get pick 8 at a usable pick (as we will use pick 7 - our actual pick - on Viney) we would have to finish 12th...again. And our mid round pick would be 12.

So it may happen but I would prefer to see what 8 and 12 could get us in trading before we used the picks.

We knocked back 8 and 9 (Butcher and Browne) from PA for Trengove. High picks are premium.