It's the midfield, stupid - reprise

[Scoop Junior 2,992]

Sorry but how can Bartel not be classified as a star?

Courageous, wins the hard ball, excellent overhead, uses it well, regularly kicks clutch goals, consistently performs in big matches and lifts at key moments in games.

He isn't as flashy as other stars but there aren't too many midfielders you'd have above him if you were picking blokes to play in a Grand Final side.

Judd and Ablett are the next level - superstars of the game. There's not many in that category.

I understand such classification is a definition issue, but if we are talking about trying to bring in another star midfielder then you'd be pretty happy if you got a young Jimmy Bartel on your list.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Sorry but how can Bartel not be classified as a star?

Courageous, wins the hard ball, excellent overhead, uses it well, regularly kicks clutch goals, consistently performs in big matches and lifts at key moments in games.

I think you just answered your own question then. Oh throw in a couple of premierships a brownlow and a Norm smith into that mix and I think you'll find you have a star.

You don't have to be a 'flashy' type to be a star.

edit- Oh sorry you said not be classified as a star, moving right along. which muppet said he wasn't? They were wrong, just like Don Scott!

Edited October 24, 2011 by SloonieMcFloonieloone

[furious d 447]

It may seem like that, but it stands to reason and fact that the pointy end of the draft has the best players. And if we finish 8th (and PA, Bris, or GC don't get comp picks for being awful) we will have picks 11, 12, and 13.

To get pick 8 at a usable pick (as we will use pick 7 - our actual pick - on Viney) we would have to finish 12th...again. And our mid round pick would be 12.

So it may happen but I would prefer to see what 8 and 12 could get us in trading before we used the picks.

We knocked back 8 and 9 (Butcher and Browne) from PA for Trengove. High picks are premium.

I think we could finish as low as 12th, probably go as high as 7th if everything goes right. That puts our picks at somewhere between 8-20.

Between 00-05 these players were taken top 5- Justin Kositchke, Luke Livingstone, Andrew McDougall, Graham Polak, Xavier Clarke, Tim Walsh, Farren Ray, Brock McLean, Richard Tambling and Xavier Ellis, along with Jared Brennan, Daniel Wells, Ryan Griffen and Andrew Walker who are solid players but not stars.

Pick 1 and 2 are rarely misses but 3-5 are no certainties. I really only consider 1&2 as genuine pointy end picks that hold a special premium, after that it all becomes relative. Picks 1&2 in a mini draft are not the same thing as picks 1&2 in a real draft, smaller field and further out.

In the same period these players were taken 8-20- Shaun Burgoyne, Scott Thompson, Kane Cornes, Jimmy Bartel, Nick Dal Santo, James Kelly, Beau Waters, Braent Stanton, David Mundy, Mitch Clark, Shaun Higgins, Nate Jones, Shannon Hurn and Grant Birchill. Not all a graders admitedly but some pretty decent players that would be rated highly at their clubs.

I'm not against looking at what's on offer in the mini draft and what it might cost us but it's wait and see this far out. Just curious rpfc, would you activate both picks next year?

[rpfc 27,570]

I think we could finish as low as 12th, probably go as high as 7th if everything goes right. That puts our picks at somewhere between 8-20.

Between 00-05 these players were taken top 5- Justin Kositchke, Luke Livingstone, Andrew McDougall, Graham Polak, Xavier Clarke, Tim Walsh, Farren Ray, Brock McLean, Richard Tambling and Xavier Ellis, along with Jared Brennan, Daniel Wells, Ryan Griffen and Andrew Walker who are solid players but not stars.

I'm not against looking at what's on offer in the mini draft and what it might cost us but it's wait and see this far out. Just curious rpfc, would you activate both picks next year?

I would activate both but look to trade them.

I want to trade those picks for an established star.

Failing that I would like to use the mini-draft to get the best kid in a albeit smaller draft pool. We need star quality and these are the only surefire avenues available to get that star quality.

[timD 994]

Sorry but how can Bartel not be classified as a star?

Courageous, wins the hard ball, excellent overhead, uses it well, regularly kicks clutch goals, consistently performs in big matches and lifts at key moments in games.

He isn't as flashy as other stars but there aren't too many midfielders you'd have above him if you were picking blokes to play in a Grand Final side.

Judd and Ablett are the next level - superstars of the game. There's not many in that category.

I understand such classification is a definition issue, but if we are talking about trying to bring in another star midfielder then you'd be pretty happy if you got a young Jimmy Bartel on your list.

I also think that he goes missing for chunks of games and chunks of seasons. When he is involved he is excellent. But it is my impression that there are frequent number of games where he 'just goes'.

[furious d 447]

I would activate both but look to trade them.

I want to trade those picks for an established star.

Failing that I would like to use the mini-draft to get the best kid in a albeit smaller draft pool. We need star quality and these are the only surefire avenues available to get that star quality.

Established stars don't fall off trees. Next year GWS will still have their chequebook out and I doubt anyone will consider us yet if they're chasing a flag.

The mini draft is not a surefire way to star quality. If these mini drafts were held in the last few years Dan Rich, John Butcher and Jack Darling would have all been in the mix, but all slid before their draft. Even then we're no certainty to win a pick as several clubs could have more to offer than us.

I'm not necessarily against either option but both are speculative at this stage and neither are completely in our control. If we activate both picks we may end up having to use them in the draft and I'm happy with that outcome as well.

[rpfc 27,570]

I also think that he goes missing for chunks of games and chunks of seasons. When he is involved he is excellent. But it is my impression that there are frequent number of games where he 'just goes'.

[rpfc 27,570]

Established stars don't fall off trees. Next year GWS will still have their chequebook out and I doubt anyone will consider us yet if they're chasing a flag.

The mini draft is not a surefire way to star quality. If these mini drafts were held in the last few years Dan Rich, John Butcher and Jack Darling would have all been in the mix, but all slid before their draft. Even then we're no certainty to win a pick as several clubs could have more to offer than us.

We either trade or get to the pointy end of a draft - the best chance to get to the pointy end of a draft is with the mini-draft.

[furious d 447]

We either trade or get to the pointy end of a draft - the best chance to get to the pointy end of a draft is with the mini-draft.

Easier said than done unless you're prepared to pay overs. Try as we might there are no freebies

[rpfc 27,570]

Easier said than done unless you're prepared to pay overs. Try as we might there are no freebies

The will come down with next year hopefully as it will take a high draft pick and we have two extra and other clubs don't.

And Viney is a freebie.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

A freebie that will cost a first round pick..

[rpfc 27,570]

A freebie that will cost a first round pick..

But would have gone in the first few picks, and has the mentality and desire for the hard footy that we wouldn't get at the pick we will use on him.

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

Don't get me wrong. Bartel is a very good play for whom I have great admiration. But he's clearly a rung below Pendlebury and Swan.

In the past it seemed that this was the type of player that was needed in the midfield, which is exactly what we don't have. But Geelong's success with a hard working, big bodied midfield that lacked a true star midfielder gives hope that we can do the same without having to rely on picking up a star.

We have players that are capable of being at the calibre of Bartel et al, but I don't think we have the Pendlebury/Swan/Ablett/Judd player on the list. Trengove is an excellent example of a player who is going to be a fantastic player, and a very good finals player too boot, but won't be a star. Gysberts has more chance, because he has a few special tricks in close, provided he continues to work on his running. Grimes is the only real chance we have with his combination of pace, size and endurance.

We need to get a better midfield, but the question I have is how do we best achieve this midfield? In order to answer that I think we need to know what it looks like. Does it need to be (the equivalent of):

a- Ablett (superstar), Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes, Viney.

or are we better served with

b- Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes, Viney, James Kelly, Joel Corey?

I think it's a question worth revisiting after the events of recent seasons.

[old55 21,397]

We need to get a better midfield, but the question I have is how do we best achieve this midfield? In order to answer that I think we need to know what it looks like. Does it need to be (the equivalent of):

a- Ablett (superstar), Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes, Viney.

or are we better served with

b- Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes, Viney, James Kelly, Joel Corey?

I think it's a question worth revisiting after the events of recent seasons.

I'm stating the obvious - but plan A has key man risk. I think this has been borne out in the last 2 years. I haven't seen any real discussion of this - but Dane Swan has failed in the GFs. He was touched up by Farren Ray in the drawn GF and IMO if St.Kilda had won that game this would have been the major factor along with Pendlebury's failure thru gastro and Hayes and Goddard firing. The midfield stars were up on the underdog and down on the favourite. Swan just went in the replay and it was Pendlebury who did the heavy lifting.

This year Pendlebury and Thomas couldn't have done any more but Ling squashed the allegedly untaggable Swan and he was way below par. If Swan had his standard output, particularly when Collingwood had momentum in the middle of the 2nd we'd be looking at Pies back-to-back.

Swan has fired in other big games though - most recently in the PF v the Hawks.

I'm not saying this is a case for plan B, in fact I like plan A - if your star fires.

[Damo 3,004]

Don't get me wrong. Bartel is a very good play for whom I have great admiration. But he's clearly a rung below Pendlebury and Swan.

...

Gysberts has more chance, because he has a few special tricks in close, provided he continues to work on his running. Grimes is the only real chance we have with his combination of pace, size and endurance.

I dont believe Grimes has got the speed to be an elite player.

His poor foot skill is one example of his lack of speed as he doesnt have time to deliver correctly under pressure.

I dont consider Jack Grimes has shown enough to warrant being in the best 22.

There is always time enough if you are good enough but Time is running out.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Franky_31

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,493]

I dont believe Grimes has got the speed to be an elite player.

His poor foot skill is one example of his lack of speed in my opinion as he doesnt have time to delivery correctly under pressure.

I dont consider Jack Grimes has shown enough to warrant being in the best 22.

There is always time enough if you are good enough but Time is running out.

I share your view about his foot skills and therefore question whether he's a midfielder, but I think he's clearly in our best 22.

[rpfc 27,570]

I dont believe Grimes has got the speed to be an elite player.

His poor foot skill is one example of his lack of speed as he doesnt have time to deliver correctly under pressure.

I dont consider Jack Grimes has shown enough to warrant being in the best 22.

There is always time enough if you are good enough but Time is running out.

Is it now?

Because Jack would tell you that he is at the club until the end of 2013...

And Jack has shown enough in his short injury plagued career to suggest he is best 22 in a very good side.

Whether his body will betray his talent is a different question...

[mordja 187]

Is it now?

Because Jack would tell you that he is at the club until the end of 2013...

And Jack has shown enough in his short injury plagued career to suggest he is best 22 in a very good side.

Whether his body will betray his talent is a different question...

Agree

Grimes is 22 (23 next year) and has had a heap of injuries (the back issues are apparently in the past and lets hope Misson can do some work on his soft tissue problems).

Given how long MFC persisted with blokes like Miller, surely we can give a bloke as courageous and skilled as Jack a fair crack.

I'll be worried if he's 24-25 and we are getting similar output, however I highly doubt it. Jack will leave no stone unturned to be his best.

Edited October 25, 2011 by mordja

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

But would have gone in the first few picks, and has the mentality and desire for the hard footy that we wouldn't get at the pick we will use on him.

I was just being difficult.

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

Dane 'Silky' Swan just won a Brownlow. I don't see Grimes' kicking being the thing that stops him. It is only his body.

[Damo 3,004]

Ive not much against Grimes except the weight of expectation that he is going to be elite.

If he were to be chosen as a mid-fielder as opposed to the backline he would be just in front of Bate in my view and therefor not best 22.

Jack is a player that supporters back to be top 3 or captain, which while I dont agree with doesnt get up my frock.

To be named Elite when we dont have one and then to compare him to Swan is enough to make me actually post...

[H_T 2,941]

We need to get a better midfield, but the question I have is how do we best achieve this midfield? In order to answer that I think we need to know what it looks like. Does it need to be (the equivalent of):

a- Ablett (superstar), Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes, Viney.

or are we better served with

b- Trengove, Gysberts, Grimes, Viney, James Kelly, Joel Corey?

I think it's a question worth revisiting after the events of recent seasons.

The best way to achieve the best midfield the club can muster is to pick up the best available through the options available to them. They have a F/S selection in J.Viney - hopefully there is is a 10+ year / 200 + game player right there.

They also have 2 compensation picks up the sleeve.

2012 Draft has been mooted for sometime as a supposedly "superdraft", but it remains to be seen. Prior to commencement of this draft, GWS can once again explore to improve their list with the availability of 2 Mini Draft picks they can auction off. This year we saw two players go in return for picks - O'Meara and Crouch. Both come highly rated. O'Meara is some quarters would rate as a no.1 pick in next years draft. MFC will be in a good position to possibly make an attractive bid in 2012. But who is to say GC won't put up pick ~ 3 to negotiate again for what they may see as a star of the future ?

Bottom line is our current midfield headed by Moloney, Sylvia, Jones and youngsters taking their first steps, isn't respected outside of Melbourne. Too inconsistent, and not sharp enough to cut into the big boy teams. We need quality and class.

McKenzie is an asset in and under and a tackling dynamo, like Junior before him. Not quick over the ground.

Gysberts is an interesting one and there is scope. Untapped. Let the club tap into him and see what he's got.

Trengove a leader and good nous in the clinches and in the air. Can go far.

Grimes, no doubt a leader but it's a wait and see for midfield and would be a welcome addition if he fits in.

In "not-to-be-mentioned" (T$), we lost speed, class and in and under nous. It's no wonder we were keen on O'Meara.

The way I see it, I hope our club is on the front foot right now canvassing for any 'ready made star quality player' that might be interested in a trade.

If there isn't, I believe our best chance is to negotiate one of the first picks in the MD#2. Even if that player cannot play until 2014 - that doesn't worry me. Our club has been spruiking from the start that it wants sustained success; aiming to be team of the decade. The club has stated it wants a star and whilst there's no guarantee's, they're more likely to be found early in a draft. I don't believe it will effect our 'window' as such. And it may just prolong it.

I like a). St.Kilda are better served with a Hayes, Goddard, Carlton with a Judd, Murphy and Collingwood a Pendlebury, Thomas. Because it's the likes of these guys who are instrumental in wins. Not just in finals, but producing enough often enough to get deep into finals.

[Axis of Bob 10,266]

Nobody said he was as good as Swan. Nobody is proclaiming him as the saviour. Nobody has called him elite. Nobody has called him a star.

He is, however, clearly in our best 22 and has some very positive traits that could see him develop further.

Dane Swan is a similar style of player. Very good power runner, like Grimes, and a big strong body. He also isn't much of a kick. That's the reason for the comparison and a reason why being an average kick isn't an automatic reason why someone can't become a star.

You may have skimmed the posts, which could explain the misunderstanding.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Totally off the mark. Geelong have several star players in their midfield. Bartel and Selwood are both in the best 10-20 players in the AFL, James Kelly is a star in his own right, with All Australian this year. Plus Chapman who played a lot of midfield this year.

To win a premiership you need AT LEAST 2 midfielders who are considered in the best 10-15 players in the entire AFL. Look at every premiership team in the past 15 years and they have at least 2 midfielders who in that year were in the best dozen or so players in the league

Without a great midfield, we will not win a premiership.

I completely agree. I think there's a few categories and people will have their own interpretation, but let's say that there are "superstars", "stars" (elite), A graders, and so on. Nathan Buckley and Robert Harvey have shown that a "superstar" surrounded by mainly B graders, or worse, won't get you a flag, but you definitely need stars (elite) mids to win a flag. Imo, you need at least two star mids combined with a couple of A graders. If Joel Selwood and Jimmy Bartel aren't stars (elite) then I'm watching the wrong game. I accept there are degrees of everything, but they well and truly consistently deliver a standard that warrants star status. Selwood was unlucky not to pinch the Norm Smith off Bartel. Throw in Joel Corey, Cameron Ling and James Kelly (who went close to having an elite year) as A graders and you've got a potent mix.

Games are still won in the midfield and stars win finals.

[btdemon 475]

I completely agree. I think there's a few categories and people will have their own interpretation, but let's say that there are "superstars", "stars" (elite), A graders, and so on. Nathan Buckley and Robert Harvey have shown that a "superstar" surrounded by mainly B graders, or worse, won't get you a flag, but you definitely need stars (elite) mids to win a flag. Imo, you need at least two star mids combined with a couple of A graders. If Joel Selwood and Jimmy Bartel aren't stars (elite) then I'm watching the wrong game. I accept there are degrees of everything, but they well and truly consistently deliver a standard that warrants star status. Selwood was unlucky not to pinch the Norm Smith off Bartel. Throw in Joel Corey, Cameron Ling and James Kelly (who went close to having an elite year) as A graders and you've got a potent mix.

Games are still won in the midfield and stars win finals.

I agree with this. Geelong has "star" mids, but more importantly, they have depth and strength in the midfield. Colingwood have Pendlebury, Swan and Thomas (who, despite his courage and determination, is an outside mid). After that they fall away pretty quickly. Wellingham's OK but had a shocker in the big one.

Geelong "bat very deep" in the midfield, have more strength and very rarely have shockers in big games. They are the smartest midfield in the comp by far. Even without young Gazza. They may not be as explosive as the Eagles were with Judd, Cousins, Kerr etc., but look at their last five years. The mids have never let them down when it counts. Hawthorn are also smart and strong in the midfield, and IMO are the closest to matching the Cats in this area. In their case, they are not stars, but smart and strong around the ball.

We need to draft strength, size and brains in the midfield. Explosive speed is fantastic too but you can get by without it if you get the ball first (Geelong and Hawthorn).

From all reports, Viney will be crazed accumulator of the ball (like Selwood), but possibly will lack real class with the ball.

In 2012 we will have to work with what we have got. Trengove is going to be a huge asset.

We know we have an effective combo in Jamar and Moloney. Moloney and Jones are frustrating, but they are also improving incrementally. Both had useful years and should improve under the new coach.

McKenzie will continue to do what he does, and hopefully progress.

Sylvia is going to have to be used more in the midfield for his explosive strength and speed. He needs to build his engine (and smarts) further. It will be interesting to see if he trains with the forward or mid group during the preseason

Gysberts is interesting. Despite his height, he doesn't have much strength. His kicking lacks penetration too. He does gets the ball a lot and generally makes good decisions.

All the talk is that Grimes will also move in there. I just hope his body holds up.

I'm reluctant to push Howe in there as some posters have suggested. He could be such a potent forward. Possibly a "star" forward. Again, I would be happy if he became a very effective mid.

Blease, at this stage, doesn't have the complete toolkit for the midfield. he would have to build his engine considerably. I also think he is too valuable as a line-breaker off half-back.

I think Bail may come into the midfield more next season. He is still learning the game but has explosive speed, desire and guts.

Bate is still there. I can't see him being an effective mid due to his lack of mobility. I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Nicholson and Evans may both step up. Nicholson especially. Both are goers with speed.

I would expect to see some fairly significant structural changes in the midfield next year. Exciting times!

Edited October 26, 2011 by btdemon