Badly outcoached

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,629]

When the kick-ins work a treat and we go coast to coast occassionally, they're heroes. When it doesn't work out, every person within the FD is a neanderthal and there are calls for a review or immediate replacement. Am I right JJC ?

You're correct that we're happy when we go "coast-to-coast".It's a fairly rare event even in good sides.

Unfortunately, the norm for us is the enormous pressure that develops on the backline when we have a kick-in. The kicker perseverates until the ump. calls play-on, then normally panics, and tries a desperate kick which rarely sets up an attack, but usually starts another pressured situation. Slip-ups at this time result in demoralising goals.

Good teams regard a behind to the opposition as an opportunity to gain possession and set up an attack(eg Hawthorn in '08 GF).

I certainly have never called for a review or replacement of the FD, and you are the first person I've seen refer to them as "neanderthals".

I do think the FD underestimates the importance of kick-ins. I do not think they emphasise the importance of kicking in quickly, taking the first option.

One example of a recurring error is the way one of our players leisurely collects the ball after a behind, then casually hands it over to the kicker-in. The kicker should run to collect it as fast as possible. The other guy should be out there offering an option. If we're one short in defence(with one player collecting the ball), the defensive zone is 10 to 20% easier to set up.

[Harrisonrules 273]

What I found very funny watching the game was how Collingwood responded to our kick-ins. They set up their talls in the only two locations we ever kick to, long down the middle and to our right flank. They set up several crumbing players 10-20m forward of that location. When the kick came in, they didn't try to mark it, they simply climbed over the pack and punched forwards. The crumbers moved laterally and picked up the easy uncontested possession. They very clearly did their homework, noted that 90% of our kickouts are to these two points and came up with a very simple plan to beat them. I think the fact that it was so easy is a damning indictment of our coaches.

i DON'T RECALL HOW MANY TIMES I YELLED OUT TO GET SOME CRUMBERS AROUND THE THREE WHO FLEW FOR THE MARK. THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES TO PICK UP THE CRUMBS.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Rhino Richards
Take the CAPS LOCK off Harry. Thanks

[rpfc 27,646]

[mrtwister 650]

Othe teams have hard working veterans, we have none. I wouldn't call our most experienced players veterans. These are the guys that the young guys learn from. It's not just on the field, it's game preparation, it's looking after your body, it's consistent effort. We don't have any of them. Not many teams have a plethora of young players without a couple of strong leaders to show them the ropes. Murphy, for example, is clearly the one Judd will hand the torch to. Who has our torch? Do we have one?

This, amongst other things, is part of our 'inconsistency' problem. IMO

ps I hope I don't come across as having an agenda

[stuie 7,374]

Robbie... Honestly, comments like this make it hard to take you seriously.

Many people bring it up as an excuse because... shock horror... it is a legitimate excuse.

Excuses, excuses... No what we should be aiming for is it?

Besides, isn't this thread about coaching? Malthouse has ALOT more games experience than Bailey, no one has mentioned that yet, so with an inexperienced team and an inexperienced coach how are we going to learn? Wait, let me guess, by getting "experience"?! Experience is not a magical remedy, especially when it is the poor experiences we are having right now, when will you purveyors of getting experience realise we won't be just given a premiership sometime in 3 or 4 years, there needs to be ACTUAL improvement.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Not yet big enough, strong enough, confident enough or smart enough.

I would like to see progress in addressing the issues, particulary the latter two. I am sure the club would like like to see it too. I trust that the club has a clear grasp on what is going on with the troops. I trust the club.

[rpfc 27,646]

Excuses, excuses... No what we should be aiming for is it?

Besides, isn't this thread about coaching? Malthouse has ALOT more games experience than Bailey, no one has mentioned that yet, so with an inexperienced team and an inexperienced coach how are we going to learn? Wait, let me guess, by getting "experience"?! Experience is not a magical remedy, especially when it is the poor experiences we are having right now, when will you purveyors of getting experience realise we won't be just given a premiership sometime in 3 or 4 years, there needs to be ACTUAL improvement.

I would say there has been actual improvement in the years Bailey has been coach.

We have stalled somewhat this year (but we had our dark days last year...).

This year has been as disappointing as hell and there is an up-hill climb for Bailey to keep his job but improvement there has been.

And experience is not just about the number of games behind you, it is a myriad of things that enable you to do your job better.

Increased competence at basic structures, the number of pre-seasons, the ability to predict what your teammates will do, the bigger bodies that come with time, etc.

So my view would be - we were awful, our effort was unacceptable, however, this journey has no overnight destination - it will take time before we can compete with the Coll, Geel, Haw, and Carl teams.

And our leaders are so, so bad.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Othe teams have hard working veterans, we have none. I wouldn't call our most experienced players veterans. These are the guys that the young guys learn from. It's not just on the field, it's game preparation, it's looking after your body, it's consistent effort. We don't have any of them. Not many teams have a plethora of young players without a couple of strong leaders to show them the ropes. Murphy, for example, is clearly the one Judd will hand the torch to. Who has our torch? Do we have one?

This, amongst other things, is part of our 'inconsistency' problem. IMO

ps I hope I don't come across as having an agenda

You know what, after being in a permanent state of rebuilding the club over the last 20 or so years, we still don't have someone to hand the torch down, we may have someone to accept it but no one has it at the moment. How sad is that.

[mrtwister 650]

You know what, after being in a permanent state of rebuilding the club over the last 20 or so years, we still don't have someone to hand the torch down, we may have someone to accept it but no one has it at the moment. How sad is that.

My point exactly.

Maybe Mack Attack took it home with him last year?

[H_T 2,941]

You do know that Wet Coast finished last last year, don't you?

I thought we covered this a few weeks ago RF ?

Forget last year. What matters is this year. They're clearly a sneaky top 4 chance. Well drilled and their better players are up and running. Excellent blend of youth and experience. More importantly good leadership and consistency.

[jackaub 1,402]

Maybe.

Our kick ins are laughable. That's poor coaching. We haven't had a clue against a well executed forward press or how to execute one ourselves all year. That's poor coaching. Allowing Rivers to be so exposed. Poor coaching. Getting belted by collingwood. Can happen. Allowing Davis to [censored] us. Embarrassing. You can make excuses for them but the coaching is fairly ordinary at the moment and I'd be predicting a clean out at years end. I only reply that people represent the club because I'm suspicious of people who defend everything the club does. They either have an agenda or can't think for themselves or both. You can see it how you like HT.

I agrre completely

It is so obvious that either the coaches are not up to standard or have no appropriate plan or the players are incapable or unwilling to execute the Bailey plan. That is why in my opinion the team looks like it doesnt want to try because they know deep down it is a poor plan and not a winnable plan

On another topic.If we had been more offensive rather than defensive we may have still been spanked but we would have been spanked on our terms not Collingwoods

As soon as I saw our defensive setup I knew we were in for a terrible afternoon. Correct me if im wrong but didnt we take the game up to Collingwood last year.

I cannot wait until Bailey slinks back into management speak land or wherever he came from and we get a real coach.

[Webber 10,181]

Oh i though it through alright, There you go again Artie.....You just can't help it can you...Hmmm

You are more than able to have your own opinion, they are welcomed on here.

But i am sick of reading here you Ripping into people who do not agree with you all the time.

If you continue along those lines....Shut it.

'Ripping into' Artie is precisely what you are doing WYL, and I think of you as being one of the more aggressive, personality attacking posters on here, hence your telling someone to 'shut up'...woefully arrogant stuff. Why is it you are so vitriolic? You seem to be one of those people who are completely unconscious of the fact that alternative opinions to yours don't automatically make them wrong. Opinions are NOT agenda's, they're points of view. This agenda rubbish you speak of is a kind of paranoid madness. Live and let live WYL, we're not all out to get each other.

[satyricon 267]

e

Read my posts over the last few years. I am by no means constantly negative. You're right the press has been happening for years which is another reason we should be able to do it and limit it's effectiveness. Thanks for proving my point.

Sure Davis is in good form. The coaches should have known this. They payed him little respect and he cleaned up.

Your analysis seems very protective of the club.

I will read them that's what the forum's for. I'm hardly flaming you just wondering why you and others keep defending what I see as indefensible.

My opinion of that is very little as I think you're struggling to see what should be plainly obvious after 4 years.

Soory to take so long to get back, I do have a life, again with your last sentence, I am not allowed to have an opinion because I can't see you what you have seen for the last four years, that is your opinion.

The coaches probably had a plan for Davis, the players didn't carry it out, there is a differernce.

Maintaining the press is a mind thing, try concentrating every second for two hours with a few breaks in between, as well as running as fast as you can, and bashing into bodies that are bigger and stronger....that is not an excuse that is reality

If we wish to defend the, in your opinion, indefensible, that is our right, as I have said before if you don't like it don't read it or don't answer it, you have your opinion and some valid points, I just don't agree with some of them and perhaps analyse the game differently

My last word on this and my take on the game

1st Quarter - we had a gameplan and we stuck to it and the players all did their jobs and we stayed withing range and kicked a couple of good goals

2nd Quarter - the players rested on their laurels and the Pies did a couple of tweaks to combat what we had done in the 1st and they got away from us, not a disaster yet.

3rd Quarter - Bailey and other coaches gave the players a deserved baking at half time and we came out and stifled the game, we drew this quarter through effort

4th Quarter - the Pies lifted and we fell to bits........

My opinion of course

Edited June 14, 2011 by satyricon

[rpfc 27,646]

As soon as I saw our defensive setup I knew we were in for a terrible afternoon. Correct me if im wrong but didnt we take the game up to Collingwood last year.

lol

Are you seriously suggesting that Melbourne of 2010 were near equal to that of Collingwood 2010?!

Some of you are living in fantasy land.

We were awful at times last year. Not every game was the two Collingwood games, the Dogs game, and the Sydney game.

Maybe the Premiers don't like nearly getting knocked off by a Dees outfit that is just a battling outift?

Maybe they worked us out?

Maybe they smashed us because that is where the two teams are at?

Edited June 15, 2011 by rpfc

[H_T 2,941]

Some of you are living in fantasy land.

Absolutely.

[Sir Why You Little 34,979]

'Ripping into' Artie is precisely what you are doing WYL, and I think of you as being one of the more aggressive, personality attacking posters on here, hence your telling someone to 'shut up'...woefully arrogant stuff. Why is it you are so vitriolic? You seem to be one of those people who are completely unconscious of the fact that alternative opinions to yours don't automatically make them wrong. Opinions are NOT agenda's, they're points of view. This agenda rubbish you speak of is a kind of paranoid madness. Live and let live WYL, we're not all out to get each other.

Except for Artie of course. He can say what he likes.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

88 points = outcoached, outrun, outmuscled, outplayed and outscored.

[satyricon 267]

88 points = outcoached, outrun, outmuscled, outplayed and outscored.

Well done, succinct, agenda free opinion....and totally and completely correct......move on to next week now

[Sir Why You Little 34,979]

88 points = outcoached, outrun, outmuscled, outplayed and outscored.

yes we were in all departments...The Question now is do the players make up excuses and feel sorry for themselves or do they LEARN from it?

After years of being outmuscled, (2000 Gf comes to mind) I hope the problems are finally looked into.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Doubt, lack of surety, lack of confidence, typed this in another thread.

You might not present because subconsciously you don't believe you can beat your opponent, or that there will be better options, or that your team-mate isn't skilled enough to get it to you.

When you stop putting attacking pressure on a good side they can run forward in numbers with confidence and make you look stupid.

You see it when you coach kids and you see it in young AFL teams. Once the doubt sets in the rot starts.

We need to develop these kids so they believe in thier abilities, thier teammates abilities and the processes put in place. So easy to say.

[beelzebub 22,373]

yes we were in all departments...The Question now is do the players make up excuses and feel sorry for themselves or do they LEARN from it?

This Very much and entirely the domain of the Coach(s) ....to not just mould the body and stylebut the MiNDS that control them.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

This Very much and entirely the domain of the Coach(s) ....to not just mould the body and stylebut the MiNDS that control them.

OK

[DeeZee 6,856]

What i couldnt understand was the amount of times key collingwood players were on there own, like Cloke and Davis.

I wouldve moved frawley to cloke and tried bennell and bartram in tandem really close check on davis.

wouldve probably tried something different up forward , swap things around green and watts, jurrah on a wing etc.

With Colling wood i wouldve banged it long alot more, as they were just chopping off our hand passes.

[mrtwister 650]

When players are that open it's usually from 1 of 2 things.

Either there has been a turnover and their opponents are caught out of position.

OR

There has been a communication/structure breakdown. Usually involving a rotation.

It's not always that easy to just swap people's roles in the middle of a game, especially against quality opposition like we were up against. Players are usually given an idea on what their role will be as the week goes on so they can mentally prepare and practice to it over the sessions leading up to the game. It's very difficut to make significant changes once a game has started. Subtle changes are okay but complete role swapping is tough.

[beelzebub 22,373]

For whichever reason there were many times the Filth had men on own or with far too much space. So whats happening..? Poor communications between players, or ambiguous instructions ( or just bad ones) to players from coaches.

Made us look extremely amatuerish at times. They were commensurately professional and tenmacious...we seemed all bit lost and at sea on too many occasions.

Usual suspects here as to reasons