How far have we come this year?

[Guest Artie Bucco]

I'm pretty sure Dean Baileys Mun posts on here under the name 'Artie Bucco'

Weak snipe, but I've come to expect that from you.

Bailey has neither convinced me that he is the right man nor the wrong man for the job.

However, at the moment he has more ticks next to his name than crosses.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I doubt you're capable of providing such an argument.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Artie Bucco

[Bobby McKenzie 2,192]

This season, right now:

Game........Preseason....Result

Syd @ G - win?.........Draw

Haw @ G - loss.........Loss

Bri @ G - WIN..........Win

GCS @ Gabba - WIN........Win

WCE @ Subi - loss........loss

ADE @ G - WIN..........Win

NTH @ Eti - win?.........loss

StK @ Eti - loss.........loss

So the only game right now that I would call out of character would be the North game. So slightly behind - but beating Freo or winning any of the next 3 will put us on track.

And now a look at the all important future.

Carlton Loss

Essendon Loss? Win? Could surprise here.

Collingwood Loss

Fremantle Loss

Richmond Win???

WB Loss

Port Adelaide Win??

Hawthorn Loss

Geelong Loss

Carlton MCG Loss??? Will do better this time round.

West Coast Loss??

Richmond MCG Win

Gold Coast MCG WIN

Port Adelaide AAMI Loss Should be a Win But its at AAMI.

Not a rosy outlook BUT if our injuries start to drop, take away the question marks next to the winnable ones.

Edited May 25, 2011 by bobby mckenzie

[bing181 8,176]

I've said this a number of times on these forums but the Bailey fanatics keep howling me down.

And that about sums it up. The inability to see an argument in anything except black and white.

I'm not calling for Bailey's head. That doesn't mean I necessarily think he's the best man for the job going forward.

I know I know, it's difficult ...

[Guest milpod]

I agree that Northey had a harder edge than subsequesnt coaches, but he was quite draining apparently with his prematch addresses of "they think your not good enough, nobody thinks your good enough."

It was the "us v them" mentality that produced some consistency, but as you get more relevant the message loses its punch.

Still had enough punch to be the "team' that has done the most since 1964!I still have no idea how we made a GF in 2000.

[jayceebee31 671]

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

In previous years, if we had 1/3 of our best side out and a game-ending injury to someone in the first quarter of a game there is no way we would even have been in the match.

I second your points raised- I left the ground thinking- gee we could have rolled over like normal when Tappie went down.I thought it was a good effort on the day.

[Waltham33 409]

Before the injuries I would have said we were behind where I'd hoped we would be - just in general play. Since the injuries it is difficult to measure.

Bring- Back-Powell has described the bigger picture well.

[Radar Detector 1,339]

we obviously could easuily have won last week, it was mostly bad luck and a few critical errors from some kids. how anyone could debate this is beyond me. I was honestly shocked to find that on Sunday a huge amount of people were just slagging the side and the club off. I came away from the ground thinking we should have won and that it was a gutsy 4-quarter effort from un undermanned side. We are still on a 44% win record vs last year's 39% and there are clear improvements n both overall team play and certain individuals efforts, if only in patches. We all know that there are several cogs that many players in the side can lift so is it so hard to imagine they will right the ship and win many more before the year is out? What happened last year in round 1, we were embarassed by the Hawks again, what happened the next week, we matched the premiers. FCS a couple of weeks ago we responded to a loss with a 96 point belting.

we will probably get done like a dinner for the next three but how can we honestly be upset with that, coming off 8.5 wins last year, huuuuuge injury list, playing top sides. We shouldn't be expecting to win them. Of course if they play awful footy or drop their heads for patches that will deserve criticism. But as long as they have a crack like they did last week i won't blame them

lately ive read a lot of 'injuries are no excuse'... of course they are! we have 12 unvailable for this week, most of them solid players or at least in the mix for the 22, we will be fielding players that are past 30th best on the list

i know this is going to cop 'stop making excuses winning is the only thing that matters' ... so maybe just save it.. if thats all you got i'm not interested

Great post

Forget about our young list or our poor with injuries of late.

Why do people keep saying this as if doing so removes it as a consideration? Perhaps if the so-called "Bailey apologists/fanatics" started every post with "Forget about our win-loss record for the last four years" others will begin to see some sense...

The big issue we have this year is forward pressure/zones.

This issue is overplayed because of our low forward entries in the games where we lose.

And the more relevant question is - is this the game style we want to be playing anyway? Or do we want to be innovating and creating a game style that when the team is ready will take us to a flag? If you look at all of the recent premiers, none of them have won their flag by copying the previous winner, which is a favoured tactic of the laggards. Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood have all brought their own unique game plan to the table. Copying generally doesn't quite get the job done.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Deemolition

[The Chazz 4,077]

And the more relevant question is - is this the game style we want to be playing anyway? Or do we want to be innovating and creating a game style that when the team is ready will take us to a flag? If you look at all of the recent premiers, none of them have won their flag by copying the previous winner, which is a favoured tactic of the laggards. Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood have all brought their own unique game plan to the table. Copying generally doesn't quite get the job done.

Finally! Thank you for pointing this out.

People want us to "play like Collingwood", by the time it takes us 2 seasons to master that, the next leader of the comp is playing a totally different style. For those that can't work that out - we would be continually playing catch up footy.

I have to ask, what stage are we at in our premiership model? I know we have moved from Base Camp, are we still at the In The Game phase? The idea of that phase is that we go in at half time and we are still In The Game. If you look at our games so far, every game except West Coast has seen us In The Game at half time.

While we all want results, we should also listen to what our Club is telling us. We have only had our President come out once to say that the way we played in a certain match is totally unacceptable. They didn't do that after the Hawks match, or the North game, why not? Because according to this premiership model, we are at the exact stage we wanted to be at.

In regards to the OP, I don't think anyone in here can give an accurate reply at this stage in the season, hence why we wont sack our Coach mid-year. The smart supporters, like the President, will sit back at the end of the year and make their decision then. Any decisions made earlier than that are knee-jerk reactions, and are unhealthy.

[Guest 36DD]

So the coach has no responsibilty for the way the team plays, however but the media can get them to do their job? Makes sense.

So players should rely on external sources for motivation to be the best they can be??? Sounds like a winning formula.

[Tricky 337]

We need more of the season to play out before being able to make any real assessment.

The injury setback is distorting the current picture considerably.

I have concerns about about our leadership and some of our senior players at the moment.

I think it's crucial that we get the "culture" right going forward - more so than the win/loss ratio this year.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Tricky

[Guest Thomo]

So players should rely on external sources for motivation to be the best they can be??? Sounds like a winning formula.

No, both should have responsibility, but it's easier to get a new coach than new players.

[Guest Thomo]

Weak snipe, but I've come to expect that from you.

Bailey has neither convinced me that he is the right man nor the wrong man for the job.

However, at the moment he has more ticks next to his name than crosses.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I doubt you're capable of providing such an argument.

I was wrong to suggest you are Dean Baileys Mum, by your response I think it is more likely that you are Jack Grimes.

[loges 6,132]

Until we develop some key position players we will not meet expectations. We have one so far Frawley. Not enough, puts pressure on undersized players to fill these spots.

[beelzebub 22,244]

we're so up and down its hard to determine . When the mean starts outpacing the median of our performances then were getting somewhere, until then weve really come nowhere !!

[Demon Dynasty 15,668]

Until we * beat Vic clubs and win at Etihad and Subi we've gone nowhere as a club.

*Insert following words pls > start to and AAMI park

Could someone please wake me once this begins to happen...thanks

Edited May 26, 2011 by Rusty Nails

[Harrisonrules 273]

The big things we did last year were *almost* rolling Collingwood (twice, the loss was the umpires fault), the Doggies (again umpires, the pink shirt debacle) and Freo in Freo. Unfortunately, we also lost to West Coast at home when they were tanking...

I would wait for the next 3 weeks to pass to ask this question that this thread is posing. The only decent sides we have played so far this year are Hawthorn (and they weren't playing great at the time) and West Coast, but that was more our fault for the loss than them being good. After playing Carlton, Essendon and Collingwood (two friday night games!! and QUEENS BIRTHDAY!) we will know a LOT more about our side.

Also, injuries are no excuse, but i seriously think the games against NM and particularly StKilda could've been won if we had Trengove/Scully/Jamar/Grimes/Garland. There would be very different thought about the club if those wins had occured.

You didn't list the North injuries

[Deeflated 0]

This issue is overplayed because of our low forward entries in the games where we lose.

And the more relevant question is - is this the game style we want to be playing anyway? Or do we want to be innovating and creating a game style that when the team is ready will take us to a flag? If you look at all of the recent premiers, none of them have won their flag by copying the previous winner, which is a favoured tactic of the laggards. Geelong, Hawthorn and Collingwood have all brought their own unique game plan to the table. Copying generally doesn't quite get the job done.

Because of our low forward entries?????? Why do you think we lose this stat every week? It's because the opposition have better defensive pressure and structures to force repeat entries. We on the other hand don't. Last I checked we were doing fine from stoppages.

Regarding game plan, you think the pies invented the defensive zoning???? The swans/eagles put the emphasis on a defensive game style in 2005/2006, winning flags mind you. Then hawthorn and the saints improved on it. Even the cats have more emphasis on defense this year.

You mention being original and staying with our own game plan, please explain to me what that currently is?

I eagerly await your analysis.

[Sir Why You Little 34,649]

Jack Watts.

[joehann 0]

'But the concern is how pathetic we have been at times. I never expected performances like the 3rd quarter against Hawthorn or the 1st against West Coast.'

I agree, the ability to control the tempo of a game is important, were not going to be on top of every game for 4 quarters. Controlling the tempo is something we should be focusing on. I think it will keep us in the game more often than we seem to be atm.

But after having a whinge I feel better. I am proud of what the club has done off the field in the last few years.

This isn't a Bailey hater thread either...

See you at the game tomorrow night.

[Sir Why You Little 34,649]

'But the concern is how pathetic we have been at times. I never expected performances like the 3rd quarter against Hawthorn or the 1st against West Coast.'

I agree, the ability to control the tempo of a game is important, were not going to be on top of every game for 4 quarters. Controlling the tempo is something we should be focusing on. I think it will keep us in the game more often than we seem to be atm.

But after having a whinge I feel better. I am proud of what the club has done off the field in the last few years.

This isn't a Bailey hater thread either...

See you at the game tomorrow night.

I think what we all realize now, is that the job to make the MFC into a powerful club again is both a huge one & a long one...We just have to stick by the Club. It maybe one step forward two steps back for a while yet, but it is moving...

Just watch Evans from last week....a most impressive first up game. He is a goer.

[old dee 22,944]

we obviously could easuily have won last week, it was mostly bad luck and a few critical errors from some kids. how anyone could debate this is beyond me. I was honestly shocked to find that on Sunday a huge amount of people were just slagging the side and the club off. I came away from the ground thinking we should have won and that it was a gutsy 4-quarter effort from un undermanned side. We are still on a 44% win record vs last year's 39% and there are clear improvements n both overall team play and certain individuals efforts, if only in patches. We all know that there are several cogs that many players in the side can lift so is it so hard to imagine they will right the ship and win many more before the year is out? What happened last year in round 1, we were embarassed by the Hawks again, what happened the next week, we matched the premiers. FCS a couple of weeks ago we responded to a loss with a 96 point belting.

we will probably get done like a dinner for the next three but how can we honestly be upset with that, coming off 8.5 wins last year, huuuuuge injury list, playing top sides. We shouldn't be expecting to win them. Of course if they play awful footy or drop their heads for patches that will deserve criticism. But as long as they have a crack like they did last week i won't blame them

lately ive read a lot of 'injuries are no excuse'... of course they are! we have 12 unvailable for this week, most of them solid players or at least in the mix for the 22, we will be fielding players that are past 30th best on the list

i know this is going to cop 'stop making excuses winning is the only thing that matters' ... so maybe just save it.. if thats all you got i'm not interested

All right I won't say winning is the only thing that matters.

Or that the rest is just comforting words to make ourselves feel better.

[Radar Detector 1,339]

Because of our low forward entries?????? Why do you think we lose this stat every week? It's because the opposition have better defensive pressure and structures to force repeat entries. We on the other hand don't. Last I checked we were doing fine from stoppages.

What I am saying is that the issue of our forward pressure is, I repeat, overplayed because of our low forward entries. Surely you can see that there is some cross-correlation between these stats. For example, we were roundly criticised after the WCE game due to the fact that we had no tackles inside f50 in the first quarter. Shocking, I know. But in that same quarter, we had only three i50s, of which one was a backwards kick from the opposition to a loose defender. Pretty hard to apply forward pressure that quarter. All I am pointing out is that, while you need defensive pressure to maximise your forward entries, by definition you actually need forward entries to be able to apply defensive pressure in the first place. Otherwise it's just pressure. Make sense? Several games this year (the WCE and Hawks games spring to mind) we were smashed at centre clearances and had far fewer initial i50 entries meaning our forward pressure stats are naturally skewed.

Regarding game plan, you think the pies invented the defensive zoning???? The swans/eagles put the emphasis on a defensive game style in 2005/2006, winning flags mind you. Then hawthorn and the saints improved on it. Even the cats have more emphasis on defense this year.

No, I don't think they invented zoning. However if you look at the defensive structures of each of the last four premiership teams, theay have each had very different game plans. Swans and WCE each employed a similar defensive flood. Geelong played a far less structured defensive zone and backed their individual defenders to win one-on-one (e.g. Scarlett, Egan, Taylor) or zone off (e.g. Milburn, Mackie) where required. Hawthorn employed a more extreme variation of the traditional zone with the "cluster". Collingwood has gone even further with the "forward press". All I am saying is that the next premier rarely (if ever) topples the incumbent using the same game plan. A modified variation maybe, but I hazard a guess that the premier won't be playing the forward press as we know it in three years time.

You mention being original and staying with our own game plan, please explain to me what that currently is?

Ah, the old mis-quote the poster and hope he doesn't notice trick! I never said we had to stick with our current game plan, nor implied it. I merely suggested that we should be building a game pland for tomorrow, not today. I do not know what that is or should be but I would hope that the guys in charge have their eyes on the road ahead, not the current surroundings. Original? Yes, I would think that is a pre-requisite for success.

I eagerly await your analysis.

I trust this satisfies your curiosity.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

All right I won't say winning is the only thing that matters.

Or that the rest is just comforting words to make ourselves feel better.

the rest is indisputable fact that an ignoramus ignores, you have the attitude of a simple thinker, that's all there is to it

i can't wait to hear all the little girls crying tomorrow after we don't beat the 5th-placed side with 11 players unavailable. We'll probably lose in the last minute due to a diodgy free and there will be tears from the likes of you

fortunately the club is made of more intelligent and tough fabric than most of its supporters

[old dee 22,944]

the rest is indisputable fact that an ignoramus ignores, you have the attitude of a simple thinker, that's all there is to it

i can't wait to hear all the little girls crying tomorrow after we don't beat the 5th-placed side with 11 players unavailable. We'll probably lose in the last minute due to a diodgy free and there will be tears from the likes of you

fortunately the club is made of more intelligent and tough fabric than most of its supporters

So from the above my simple mind tells you that you do not think we have a snow flakes chance in hell tonight.

I agree but don't dress to make yourself feel better.

As for the "more intelligent and tough fabric supporters" they have been enjoying low success for decades.

About time they got their minds around winning.

Edited May 27, 2011 by old dee

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

So from the above my simple mind tells you that you do not think we have a snow flakes chance in hell tonight.

I agree but don't dress to make yourselve feel better.

As for the "more intelligent and tough fabric supporters" they have been enjoying low success for decades.

About time they got their minds around winning.

yep no excuses

Moloney, Frawley and Jurrah are late withdrawls, three blokes from Casey twos are playing, still no excuses?