Bartram

[Harrisonrules 273]

Yes I have big questions over Clint. The club has stood by him every year he has been at the club. Don't recall him ever being dropped even though I would say he fits into the bottom few on the pecking order of player ranking in the team. Ultimately he has been designated as the mobile small back to tag the dangerous small goal sneaks of the opposition. Why was he not given the duty on Milne last week. Is he good enough or not? Word is going around that he has been playing a tagging role on such opposition livewires and starving them of opportunity. Regarding skill I could only give him a 50% break even score. Most significantly we get no run from him. When he gets the ball which is little more than 10 possessions a game he tends to look for the backward option because it provides no pressure on thinkiing or kicking. Backward movement is valuable if you move it quickly across ground for a forward thrust down the other wing but if slow it just gives the opposition time to zone up.

Frawly was magnificent on Milne but that left other holes with the saints talls down forward. Either Bartram is good enough for this role or he is not. I don't criticse him. He is what he is. For me it leaves another big question over the competence of the coaching staff. I've heard good things about Wellman, but this leaves the door open on my opinion.

[big tuna 0]

Bartram's role is to make all other backmen look like a good kick

He has actually played some good defensive games and improved on his last few seasons... but you are correct in saying he gives us very little run out of defense. I think he is just warming the small defenders role for a few years until a Blease or possibly Tappscott (or somebody yet to be drafted) comes along and makes it their own.

I think Wellman/coaches got it right with Frawley on Milne. Frawley should play on the most dangerous forward no matter what size or shape they are.

[Grandson of a gun 276]

Bartram is in the team because he fulfils a role. Not because he is in our best 22 players. His disposal is poor for AFL standard and he doesn't give us any drive.

Now i understand the need for that type of player to lock down opposition gun smalls but perhaps there is another option.....

How would Maric go in Bartram's role?

Maric is in limbo. He isn't showing enough as a small forward and there are too many other blokes in front of him.

Is it time for a radical change?

I don't have a great grasp on his skill set however he looks to have a reasonably strong build and he has pace. They are the first two requisites. If he can keep with his opponent and tackle and spoil he comepletes the defensive component. We know he can kick better than Bartram. The only other thing is his marking...

Given where Maric is at and Bartram's limitations, i think the move has merits and may just pay off...

[Gorgoroth 12,352]

His role is to negate, negate some more, then negate some more.

And he has done some good jobs and some average ones, people these days put too much stock in seeing possessions, supercoach points etc

WHile he is no star and never will be, we have had worse players this year over all.

[Harrisonrules 273]

I'm right with you. I've just started another thread on Bartram which was virtually tackling the same concern. I'd give Maric a go on the backline, but Bailey has shown very little imagininative creativity, so don't expect it.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I'm right with you. I've just started another thread on Bartram which was virtually tackling the same concern. I'd give Maric a go on the backline, but Bailey has shown very little imagininative creativity, so don't expect it.

Maric doesn't have either the foot-speed or discipline to perform that role. Bennell doesn't yet have the body strength or defensive smarts yet but may end up with that job.

Clint plays that role atm as we have few other defenders capable of keeping up with pacy small forwards. You could swap him for Daniel Bell if you like but you are getting more of the same.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'd give Maric a go on the backline, but Bailey has shown very little imagininative creativity, so don't expect it.

Any slight chance Maric might actually show a bit of desire at VFL level. He had done zilch in the VFL so far and demonstrates little appetite for the contest or the pill. Good choice for a stopping defender. Imaginative creativity???

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Bartram is a good negator but you're right about his lack of drive and poor disposal. I get the impression he is just warming a position for the time being.

Some of the potential players to take over his role from next year on will be Kyle Cheney (needs to work on disposal), James Strauss (needs to work on defensive skills 1 on 1), Jamie Bennell (see James Strauss), Luke Tapscott (could play the role well I'd imagine, but could be of more value elsewhere) and if we rookie list him Casey's Michael Stockdale (Big wrap for this guy and think he'd be the most suited to the role).

So we definatly have options there, it will just be a matter of who it is that can grasp the opportunity when it comes up for them.

[Adzman 2,085]

What Bartram doesnt or does do irrelevant. He continues to play in the team because he does what the coaches ask of him, which is make life a living hell for his opponents. He is not in the side to provide run, gather possessions or do anything spectacular. This negator role is popular with all coaches, and someone needs to go and do it without winning praise. Brady Rawlings played for about 10 seasons with the roos and probably was lucky to amass 15 possessions in his career. We had a successful football career in this role.

Could Maric fill the role? No- Maric could very well be working at a local Gym in 24 months time if he doesn't pull his finger out. He has sublime foot skills and could very well hurt teams in this role. It is the rest of the role- reading the play, big engine, speed, tackling that lets Maric down.

Agree that Bartram is warming this role for someone else,but this point that someone else has not been identified leaving Bartram as our best option. IMO Bartram has been doing a good job this season, and deserves some love.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Wrathchild

[titan_uranus 22,731]

Bartram's role is to shut down an opposition forward.

At the moment that's about all he's capable of.

He is a liability with the ball in hand and we have to hope that Strauss develops sooner rather than later so that our push up the ladder does not revolve around Bartram being in the 22.

[Pates 9,537]

I cringe whenever he gets the ball, he just butchers it. That said he has done some pretty good negating roles this year, but i just can't see him lasting in the best 22 for much longer.

[DeeSpencer 23,431]

Ideally you have 7 defenders all capable of shutting down an opponent and running off them. I'd say Frawley, Grimes are capable, Bruce as well until his disposal went missing. Joel Macdonald can attack and defend but seems to struggle to get the balance right. An inform Colin Garland (see QB'day) can certainly do both as well.

Unfortunately Warnock/Rivers/Cheney/Bartram are primarily stoppers. Before injury Strauss was improving both aspects of his game particularly his defending. Morton as a defender needs to improve his defensive work.

The question is how many can we carry of Bartram's nature. Geelong probably have none, maybe only Lonergan can't use the ball as well as the rest. On the other hand Steven Baker and Zac Dawson are both shaky by foot, but seem to do their bit in the side well enough to get by. Clarkson loves to play Tom Murphy to bolster the defensive players at the hawks.

Bartram has been extremely good defensively and will probably continue to get a free ride until Strauss/Bail/Bennell really push for his spot. Unfortunately Strauss is injured and Bennell is up forward so that might be a while. Joel Macdonald and Kyle Cheney don't have the speed from what I've seen to take the dangerous quick crumbing small forward.

Edited July 11, 2010 by the master

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

fact of the matter is, frawley was judged to be a better match up for milne, and thats the bottom line.

none the less, bartram is a good defender, from a defender you need chase, pressure and to stop youir opponent. although bartram can sometimes be too defensively minded and only worry about his man, he does his job well, removing an opposition player. i also think his disposal is far from the worst, he poops all over cheney, who also plays small defender. grimes is too attackingly minded yet he has more disposal, we just need the mix of bartram and grimes in one player in my opoinion.

bartram is a certainty in our top 22, and should not be replaced with addam maric, who is a forward and in not defensively minded at all. bartrams defensive role could even see him move up the field as a tagger later on.

[Demon trucker 1,779]

fact of the matter is, frawley was judged to be a better match up for milne, and thats the bottom line.

none the less, bartram is a good defender, from a defender you need chase, pressure and to stop youir opponent. although bartram can sometimes be too defensively minded and only worry about his man, he does his job well, removing an opposition player. i also think his disposal is far from the worst, he poops all over cheney, who also plays small defender. grimes is too attackingly minded yet he has more disposal, we just need the mix of bartram and grimes in one player in my opoinion.

bartram is a certainty in our top 22, and should not be replaced with addam maric, who is a forward and in not defensively minded at all. bartrams defensive role could even see him move up the field as a tagger later on.

in terms of turnover i am not as worried, when i hear Bartram with the ball, then when i hear Joel MacDonald has the ball, Bart is a lot better player then Joel macdonald, i have seen macca cost as games, but not Bartram.

[Jaded No More 59,000]

Bartram has been nothing short of fantastic this year, and has fulfilled his role very well week in week out. His role is not to win the ball and provide us with drive from the backline, his role is to shut down the small forwards who tend to rip us to shreds.

He killed Davey today, and has been consistently beating his opponent each week.

He knows his limitations, and so should we. Don't expect him to be something that he's not, and you'll learn to understand his true value to the side. Deserves every game he gets this season and beyond.

[Deevout 449]

Bartram did really well defensively, on the radio on the way home they said Alwyn Davey was the worst player for the Bombers today.

Yes he needs to improve his disposal of the ball alot :S

[Guest Thomo]

Bartram has been nothing short of fantastic this year, and has fulfilled his role very well week in week out. His role is not to win the ball and provide us with drive from the backline, his role is to shut down the small forwards who tend to rip us to shreds.

He killed Davey today, and has been consistently beating his opponent each week.

He knows his limitations, and so should we. Don't expect him to be something that he's not, and you'll learn to understand his true value to the side. Deserves every game he gets this season and beyond.

Agree 100%, Bartram is having a great year. He will never be a superstar, but gets a job to do each week and does it very well.

[DeeSpencer 23,431]

Added Alwyn Davey to his list of victims today. I particularly enjoyed how dirty he was with himself late in the game where the ball floated over an Essendon and Melbourne player and landed in Alwyn's lap.

Barts gets a big test up against Ballantyne next week. He might be a serial pest but he's also a pretty darn good footballer who can bag a few if let off the chain.

[DemonDave 1,078]

It irks me greatly that every Thursdays team selection thread sees people asking for Bartram and Bruce to be dropped. Both play a vital role in our team, it may not be as glamorous as others roles, but equally as important. Whenever Bartam has been fit over the course of his career, hes been a starting 18 player.

Each and every week he does his job with a minimum of fuss, and invariably beats his opponent.

[Carn dees 108]

Agree 100%, Bartram is having a great year. He will never be a superstar, but gets a job to do each week and does it very well.

Also agree 100% Barty has been fantastic this year. Has really shutdown and stopped dangerous opponents from scoring. A lot of people are waiting for Straussy to come in and take his spot based on the fact his a higher draft pick, dont get me wrong i have high hopes for Strauss but just because Bartram wasnt a high draft pick doesnt mean he wont be a big part of our future, imo at this stage he definitely is.

[e25 5]

Agree 100%, Bartram is having a great year. He will never be a superstar, but gets a job to do each week and does it very well.

Yeah, I agree but considering his limitations I just don't think we'll

ever be a contender with Bartram in the side.

Bartram isn't alone in this respect.

[Harrisonrules 273]

I'm interested in the degree of praise for him. Personally I think he'd never play in a top four team, maybe and 6 to 10 positioned team. But everyone to their opinion.

[DemonDave 1,078]

I'm interested in the degree of praise for him. Personally I think he'd never play in a top four team, maybe and 6 to 10 positioned team. But everyone to their opinion.

St Kilda - Stephen Baker

Hawthorn - Thomas Murphy

Collingwood - Tyson Goldsack

Carlton - Dennis Armfield

Freo - Clancee Pearce

Most top teams have a questionably skilled player who regularly gets a gig deep in defence, usually whose mail aim is to nullify a dangerous opposition small forward.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

He knows his limitations, and so should we. Don't expect him to be something that he's not, and you'll learn to understand his true value to the side. Deserves every game he gets this season and beyond.

Just want to add to this and say that maybe... juuuust maybe the brains on here aren't as smart as they think. They've not dropped Barts, despite his low stat count, and unobtrusive nature on the field.

That would lead me to believe that Bartram has other intangible qualities that make it unthinkable to drop him. As long as he keeps shutting players down, I'll side with the footy department. Given his time on ground and the success he's enjoyed this year (albeit not the kind of success that finds its way to the front page of the HUN), I don't think anyone has the right to grumble about him.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm interested in the degree of praise for him. Personally I think he'd never play in a top four team, maybe and 6 to 10 positioned team. But everyone to their opinion.

Why not?

There are plenty of examples of players who have a premiership medal around their necks from being in the right spot and time.

Top teams are made up of stars and honest workers who do their job.

Its such a naive comment to suggest that a player is no good because he will never play in a top 4 side. Its a misnomer of a metric.