LEADING FROM THE FRONT

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

Good call! Would be nice to see Don or Denis get a run. Alas, my mail says this particular Cordner is a bit of a sissy! LOL

When I saw Harriet Cordner's photo I couldn't help thinking how much she resembled Don Cordner. A descendant of the great man for sure.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,840]

I thought Martin would be able to do what Dunn's been doing, but better.

I'd take the footballer over the athlete.

[Nasher 33,616]

which of these things is not true

1.the lack of a tall marking target i50 has been a huge concern all season

2.stef martin is such a player and is in form

3.there is always a good chance somebody in the 22 is NQR and needs to withdraw and they havent made it public

4.bringing in a matchup like stef when your opponent is not ready for it can be a nice little 'unsettler' for the opposing coach

That's where the idea is coming from

3 and 4.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

3 and 4.

You could debate point 2 as well

[Adam The God 30,260]

Lost Highway is absolutely correct and I think Rogue knows this.

He made a very valid post.

If Dunn had been given the opportunity and belief that has been given to Bate then I'm sure they would be

on the same boat.

Neither of them are top AFL players.

And a couple of goals isn't good enough AdamFarr. Not when a couple of them are cheapies and we are playing the worst

team in the AFL by far and win by 50 odd points.

I expect more contested marks from Bate as that's about the only thing he should be able to do. Not cheap goals.

Get a grip.

The point is he kicks them and often at important moments. He could do a bit more up the ground admittedly, but having been to all four games this year and watched all four replays, Bate often seems like he's doing very little when watching the game live, but upon reflection often is a hard worker, who offers numerous leads to oncoming players. I think he could lift his work inside offensive 50 (chasing defenders and so fourth), but his work is often underrated. I won't say he doesn't give me the shits when I'm watching live, but the fact of the matter is he has finished on the scoreboard. I don't care how he got them, he kicked them and that's often all that matters. Btw, he didn't just kick goals against Richmond either...oh and Dunn has only ever shown that he can kick points (before the '10 season), whereas Bate has on numerous occasions kicked long goals from outside 50. Dunn has made a little bit of progress this season however.

Edited April 23, 2010 by AdamFarr

[titan_uranus 25,020]

I wasn't suggesting any of them should be dropped, but last Sunday Dunn was possibly the best of the three. 'Runs on the board'? How far are you going back in time? The only runs on the board that really count for these blokes are the last couple of matches. Bate has hardly any in 4 matches. He's not that good a player that he can remain in the team on reputation alone; his reputation has not yet really been formed, if you ask me. Bruce, on the other hand, does have a reputation, but he's not performing up to it. Nevertheless, he's essential against Brisbane.

If you're suggesting that Bate's goals are worth less than whatever Dunn's been providing then I have to disagree. I've seen more from Bate, especially last week, than I have from Dunn. Bate makes as many contests as Dunn, runs harder, and is much more reliable from a set shot than Dunn is.

I'd take the footballer over the athlete.

Dunn's skills don't really allow us to class him as a lot better than Martin.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

Why does every thread turn in to a Bruce bashing exercise? Bruce does a tremendous amount of good work every week but that's ignored, most prefer to concentrate on the mistakes he makes. He has been and still is one of the best players we have and I'm sure the FD know that, just like they knew that giving Junior the captaincy again this year was the right thing to do.

I agree if you look at it on any objective basis looking at the stats for posessions, tackles, clangers etc. he ranks in the top 6 Melbourne players on average for the season.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

I agree if you look at it on any objective basis looking at the stats for posessions, tackles, clangers etc. he ranks in the top 6 Melbourne players on average for the season.

The stats posted on this site confirm this...

"Melbourne's leadership group for 2010 of skipper James McDonald, Cameron Bruce, Aaron Davey, Brad Green, Brad Miller, Brent Moloney and Jared Rivers. With the exception of Miller (dropped after a poor display in round 1) and Rivers (injured since the Hawks' game), the team leaders have led by example over the past three weeks. Here are

their average statistics per game in disposals and tackles for the season to date:-

McDonald - 25 disposals, 8 tackles

Bruce - 24 disposals, 3 tackles

Davey - 21 disposals, 4 tackles

Green - 20 disposals, 4 tackles

Moloney - 26 disposals, 7 tackles"

[Webber 10,468]

I agree if you look at it on any objective basis looking at the stats for posessions, tackles, clangers etc. he ranks in the top 6 Melbourne players on average for the season.

Totally agree, Cam Bruce gets a flogging from many supporters, but has consistently been a creative and dedicated influence over the team. We all know his limitations, but I'll take the positive aspects of his football any day. He will remain one of the first 10 players selected weekly.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

Brisbane by 5 points.

I will take 5 points anyday.

Interesting to see how the ruck combination of Clark and Leudenberg is countered by Bailey. Sole ruck Jamar arguably has had to ruck against one main opponent with Adelaide, Hawthorn and Collingwood (on the basis that Tippett and Fraser were playing forward relief rucks)Richmond rucks are not that compelling. Does the coach stay with solo Jamar and win an extra runner (as listed) or play emergency Martin. I think the former so we will see if we breakeven here.

[H_T 3,047]

I think Melbourne will continue to do well but Brisbane should be a little too strong for the home side although one should not forget that the Demons nearly beat the Pies a few weeks ago when they were coming off a big win over the Doggies.

Brisbane by 5 points.

Glad you mentioned this part. Both Doggies games represent an interesting formline. People forget that.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

3 and 4.

so you've never known a player to withdraw from a match on the day when you had no idea they were injured

and a coach doesn't have his plans shaken a bit by the sudden inclusion of a 200cm player that can play forward, back or ruck

what planet are you on?

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

Why does every thread turn in to a Bruce bashing exercise? Bruce does a tremendous amount of good work every week but that's ignored, most prefer to concentrate on the mistakes he makes. He has been and still is one of the best players we have and I'm sure the FD know that, just like they knew that giving Junior the captaincy again this year was the right thing to do.

I agree with RobbieF regarding Bruce, his kicking is deplorable but he reads the play well and still has something to offer defensively. It's still early days for Stef, his chance will come but it won't be in a role similar to Brucey's current role.

And while were at it i'll admit Bate looks a little underdone fitness wise but he has improved each game he's played. Sure his goals have been gimmes but he has been presenting to the wing and half back to provide a link up more often each week.

[Miracle 89]

I agree with RobbieF regarding Bruce, his kicking is deplorable .

Bruce does one bad kick and you state he is a deplorable kick. Why don't you watch the game, his efficiency

rate on Sunday was 80%.

He is an excellent field kicker and his passes rarely miss. I will admit that Yes in front of goals I hold my breath

[WonnaJurah 5]

good to see cordner back in the team. we are a sure bet now!

wonder if he is any relation

[mordja 187]

Totally agree, Cam Bruce gets a flogging from many supporters, but has consistently been a creative and dedicated influence over the team. We all know his limitations, but I'll take the positive aspects of his football any day. He will remain one of the first 10 players selected weekly.

Im not going to enter the Cam Bruce skills debate because I think we are currently playing those that merit a game, so when he is due for a rest he will get one.....Morton coming in may raise the question.

However can we give away this "dedicated player" arguement please?

IMHO - You can be as dedicated as you like, but when its over....its over. Rating your level of club loyalty or dedication shouldnt matter, in fact if you love your club you should make way for the better player/prospect.

Edited April 23, 2010 by mordja

[Rogue 585]

Bruce does one bad kick and you state he is a deplorable kick. Why don't you watch the game, his efficiency

rate on Sunday was 80%.

He is an excellent field kicker and his passes rarely miss. I will admit that Yes in front of goals I hold my breath

I doubt we'll play a game that had less pressure than the game last week.

[Disco Demons 92]

does anyone with a lot of spare time wanna setup a poll? never done it and pressed for time 2day

ie., questions...

1. who will win melb or bris

2. margins

3. etc....

[Adam The God 30,260]

Bruce does one bad kick and you state he is a deplorable kick. Why don't you watch the game, his efficiency

rate on Sunday was 80%.

He is an excellent field kicker and his passes rarely miss. I will admit that Yes in front of goals I hold my breath

I don't like bagging players on here, but you've got to be kidding right? Rarely misses? How many games over the last two or three seasons have you seen? Rarely does he hit a target. Admittedly he hit two or three against Richmond, but he also turned it over horribly by foot at least twice (having just watched the replay again ten minutes ago). One on one defensively he is 50/50 too. The two things he does have is a bit of run and creativity, which in the modern game is essential off half back.

[... 11]

Why does every thread turn in to a Bruce bashing exercise? Bruce does a tremendous amount of good work every week but that's ignored, most prefer to concentrate on the mistakes he makes. He has been and still is one of the best players we have and I'm sure the FD know that, just like they knew that giving Junior the captaincy again this year was the right thing to do.

Here here!

Bruce decimated Troy Taylor last week. So superior in the one on one contest it was a joke. Without Bruce, it's distinctly possible we'd have been reading about Taylor as a rising star nominee. I know, I know, an experienced player such as Bruce should be able to pants a young new player, but my point is - that was Bruce's job (or part of it) last week, and he did it very well.

I just wish he'd stop handballing backwards.

[Roost It 1,434]

I'm just looking forward to this

Ins: Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Blease, Gysberts, Wonaeamirri

[Nasher 33,616]

so you've never known a player to withdraw from a match on the day when you had no idea they were injured

You realise there's a big area between "never happens" (which is not what I said) and "a good chance" (which is what you said), right? I'm not disputing that it happens sometimes, I am disputing that there's a good chance of it happening. I don't have any stats, but I'll bet it's not more often than once a round on average. I view the chances of it happening to be small enough for these "there'll be a late change" to be nonsense claims. Especially when people start naming who will come out of the side when there's no evidence of that player being injured. Double especially when the person people name happens to be one of the 'marginal' players (by pure coincidence I'm sure!!).

and a coach doesn't have his plans shaken a bit by the sudden inclusion of a 200cm player that can play forward, back or ruck

I don't believe he would, no. Martin is not some secret weapon we're concealing from the opposition to spring upon them on match day, he's the 23rd best player available at the moment. If Martin was that big a worry matchup-wise he'd be in the side, not on the emergency list. Moreover, opposition coaches see the emergency list too (funny that), so they'll probably have a plan for Martin should he come in to the side. I can't imagine the opposition coach going "holy cow, I had no idea that this might happen!".

what planet are you on?

Earth. You?

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

You realise there's a big area between "never happens" (which is not what I said) and "a good chance" (which is what you said), right? I'm not disputing that it happens sometimes, I am disputing that there's a good chance of it happening. I don't have any stats, but I'll bet it's not more often than once a round on average. I view the chances of it happening to be small enough for these "there'll be a late change" to be nonsense claims. Especially when people start naming who will come out of the side when there's no evidence of that player being injured. Double especially when the person people name happens to be one of the 'marginal' players (by pure coincidence I'm sure!!).

well I didn't say any of that stuff I merely pointed out that it looks a chance and that you are the one being absurd by completely dismissing the possibility

I don't believe he would, no. Martin is not some secret weapon we're concealing from the opposition to spring upon them on match day, he's the 23rd best player available at the moment. If Martin was that big a worry matchup-wise he'd be in the side, not on the emergency list.

who besides martin is capable of filling the obvious hole at Full Forward. It is clearly not Newton or watts for a while so who is it

Moreover, opposition coaches see the emergency list too (funny that), so they'll probably have a plan for Martin should he come in to the side. I can't imagine the opposition coach going "holy cow, I had no idea that this might happen!".

That's exactly right, the Lions would have an inkling it might happen, because it makes perfect sense... that's why myself and others have put it out there. What they can't do is include an extra big man in the 22 that can line up on him if he sits at FF all day unless they are somehow certain we will make the late change, which they obviously can't be

I can't believe you are actually debating this TBH... consider this hypothetical

Brad Green (total stab in the dark) has actually got an issue of some kind that they have kept very quiet, and they know he is going to be out. Why would you list him as injured and bring Martin in just so they know for sure they have to man up on him and maybe alter their selection. Why wouldn't you just take the slight advanatge of surprise and named Martin as an emergency. It may not be a huge advantage, but why not do it, everything counts. It could be the difference between Martin being mismatched and having a bit of a day out and kicking a few

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

and i forgot to add that it happened just 2 weeks ago! Spencer was a game-day change for Bartram. Now there is no evidence at all that he was hurt I think that was just a shifty from Bailey.. or maybe he WAS hurt and they knew but named inn the 22 to get that slight advantage I mentioned above. What do you have to say that?

[Nasher 33,616]

and i forgot to add that it happened just 2 weeks ago! Spencer was a game-day change for Bartram. Now there is no evidence at all that he was hurt I think that was just a shifty from Bailey.. or maybe he WAS hurt and they knew but named inn the 22 to get that slight advantage I mentioned above. What do you have to say that?

I say that's one possibly exceptional case. You still can't assert that it's a strong possibility to happen every week.

Arguing with you is a bit like banging my head against a brick wall, only less productive, and this is a fairly trivial topic anyway, so I won't bother responding to your other post.