Newton V Martin

[Rogue 585]

Who would you change Miller for, possibly Dunn?

I meant to write Miller, not Martin, but the point stands regardless.

There's no reason we can't play two talls up forward.

Fwiw, I wouldn't bring Miller in for anyone atm.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,284]

Newton for now. He is presenting well, applying good pressure and crashing packs. Unless Martin is bangin the door down he is worthy of a spot.

There is nothing wrong with Martin learning how to play forward at Casey. I will be curious when we play Brisbane as to whether we then allow Jamar to ruck on his own with some small releif or we then bring in PJ or Spencer.

[The Big Ticket 94]

I wonder if Miller can break into the seniors again?

Newton for mine. Much better shot on goal. This weekend he'll have a good chance to kick a bag.

[Guest watts04]

Newton is years in and still average....has nothing when the ball hits the deck and isn't strong enough in the hands

Would rather PJ or Martin who may have a future and we need to find out

[Summer Blease 0]

Newton is years in and still average....has nothing when the ball hits the deck and isn't strong enough in the hands

Would rather PJ or Martin who may have a future and we need to find out

I believe it is unfair and counter-productive to drop ANY player (regardless of stature or time at the club) after they are showing signs of improvement.

I believe now is the perfect time to test Newton out once and for all. This is his last chance- I don't want us to rob someone..

I believe PJ going to become redundant by seasons end, and Martin can continue learning his craft in the little leagues for now

I beleive in fairy winkles.

[Jack7 528]

I wrote after round 1,we should drop Miller and give Newton 5 games and if he can't cut it,he's out for good and I stand by this.Miller has played over a 100 games more than Newton and is no better,so i'd put more games and development into Newton,it might not come to anything but Miller didn't either and with Jurrah,Sylvia,Watts,Wonna out,this is the time Miller should be giving us something but he didn't,good call Bailey.

No more games for Miller,he's given us 8 years of nothing.

[Webber 10,586]

There's an extraordinary degree of latitude being given to Michael Newton out there. I've seen EVERY game he's played for the Dee's since 2008, and probably 5 on TV for Sandy/Casey, and without wanting to be harsh, he is unequivocally the least deserving player currently getting a game for any club in the AFL. At no stage, EVER, have I seen him warrant reselection, and that includes his 'mark of the year' game. Strangely though, I expect him to be reselected this week, but would love to know the reason. By contrast, Stefan Martin is a 4th year footballer, and I mean 4th year since he started playing the game at all, is an athletic freak, and, which is something people forget, was an excellent tall defender in his first year. Then they started floating him around ruck and forward last year, which threw him off a bit. Clearly the reason for this, and the fact he has been contracted til the end of 2011, is to fashion him into a tall forward. This frankly excites me. His speed, leap, growing footy skills and judgement, will come to fruition in the future. It there is one thing that Stynes, Scwab, Connolly and Bailey seem to be, it is VERY committed to their vision, and they will not be rushed for short term appeasement.

[Guest oldman emubitter]

i reckon they should do a tarrant and try him done back; might fail but worth a try. and what about all the talls we already have down there? try 'em up forward. warnock reminds me a bit of mitchell white and rivers might look good off a hff. just a thought. i'm talking about newton by the way

[Bates Mate 4,511]

I thought Newton's defensive tackling pressure in our foward line was pretty good yesterday and he tried hard but he has to kick more goals. Martin is someone with a bigger body who can take the centre ruck giving Jamar a break and he also kicked 3 goals for casey on the weekend. I think it's time to give Martin a go.

Thoughts?

I thought juice had a good 1st half , good 2nd efforts and tackling.

Martin should never have been moved from the back half where he can use his pace and reach to make good spoils and his quick hands from his basketball background to get out of trouble, up forward he looks lost and when he gets a shot at goal looks like a guy who just started playing footy

[Webber 10,586]

And that is precisely the point in fashioning him into a forward. He has the ability, but lacks the experience, hence why he is playing forward with Casey. He will be one of our key forwards over the coming years, and you will be screaming his name with delight. Have just read the thread on changes for next week, and it's remarkable how many people want to keep Newton. WHY????????????????????

[John Crow Batty 8,880]

Martin can't kick the ball. Is a symptom of poor execution which is still Melbourne biggest blight especially when going forward. He and Newton are 50/50 at this stage and neither will make a difference in ball use for the club this early in the season. Martin is still under development and needs to work on his disposal. If he doesn't improve he would be in Newton's boots at the end of the season. Newton is on his last legs so give him the final chance to prove himself with a few consecutive games.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

Yes. The pre-requisites for a KPF position(s) in Melbourne's future forward line: -

1/ Needs to hold marks

2/ Needs to finish well (kick goals)

3/ Needs to put pressure on (defensively) and harrass when team is not in possession of the ball to pressure a turnover.

At the moment 1/3 for me....at best (I think I am being generous as the "1" is questionnable for some). Tick Tick Tick...

I would say four needs.

1/ Needs to hold contested marks

2/ Needs to finish well (kick goals)

3/ Needs to put pressure on (defensively) and harrass when team is not in possession of the ball to pressure a turnover.

4/ Needs to present enough

1 is the bail out option when the ball carriers are under enough pressure or you isolate the defense and get a mismatch or a a good prospect that the crumbers can get on to.

2 is conversion of opportunities - some players get few opportunities but convert well enough to hold a spot

3 is about regaining the ball and also about getting enough opportunities to score

4 is about opportunities to score

Newton had 4 tackles on Sunday - which compares pretty favourable (J MCd 10, Bennell 5 next best is 4).

Miller does 4 well enough but can only do 2 within about 40m and no great angles.

Green - for his size does 1, 2 and 4

Dont know about Martin on any of these.

Watts kicks well and presents well - good tank apprently - dont know that about his defensive pressure and figure is body will have limitations in contested marks.

Martin is at size where he can have AFL game time. JW is a bit light and potentially fragile for mine. Jurrah's injury is a reminder of what can happen to a player who is unprepared for the rigours of the AFL.

[Webber 10,586]

Poseidon Burke, your comment on Jurrah's injury bears no relationship to reality. Dislocated shoulders are a function of specific instantaneous force with the shoulder in an extreme position of vulnerability. Just ask Brent Moloney about his own, which was surgically stabilised 2 years ago. His shoulder was not 'underprepared', he was just unlucky. Get over it!

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

Poseidon Burke, your comment on Jurrah's injury bears no relationship to reality. Dislocated shoulders are a function of specific instantaneous force with the shoulder in an extreme position of vulnerability. Just ask Brent Moloney about his own, which was surgically stabilised 2 years ago. His shoulder was not 'underprepared', he was just unlucky. Get over it!

In terms of relationship to reality - I guess you are playing yourself and therefore fully up to date with a 100 kgs body hitting a 83kg body? Probably ride out those hits with joy I bet.

Doesnt have to be a shoulder could be a knee for example. Nice way for our Jack to commence his career.

At 83 kgs for a 196 cm body that is precious little muscle supporting a big frame.

But you are right in the sense that a bit of bad luck can injure anyone - my point is lets not be in too much of hurry with some of the younger players - give them some game time for sure but dont ignore someone like Martin who at 100 kgs is going to be a handful.

[Akum 2,660]

Martin can't kick the ball. Is a symptom of poor execution which is still Melbourne biggest blight especially when going forward. He and Newton are 50/50 at this stage and neither will make a difference in ball use for the club this early in the season. Martin is still under development and needs to work on his disposal. Newton is on his last legs so give him the final chance to prove himself with a few consecutive games.

This is the crux of it IMO. His current form is an improvement but not enough, he needs to keep improving, but while he's improving there's really no point in dropping him. The next 3 games will be the decisive games for his career. He should see plenty of the ball against Tigers and the "pass mark" is perhaps 4 goals (including assists). Then he has a hard one against Brisbane, where he'll need to produce something, at least to have some effect on the game, against strong opposition. Then, if he hasn't blown it yet, a game against a team at a similar stage of development which will be a real indicator of how much we've improved, and he'll be expected to make a definite contribution.

And that's provided that either Stef or Jack doesn't kick a bag for Casey in the meantime. If Stef had got his 5 or 6 for Casey, it could have been different.

[Webber 10,586]

I'm not debating the relative risks of a big body against small, but was SPECIFICALLY referring to dislocated shoulders. Totally agree that Watts should be physically ready, but if he were 15kg bigger of pure muscle, his shoulder would still be subject to the same mechanical risks as LJ's was. As a physio, I know what I'm talking about.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

This is the crux of it IMO. His current form is an improvement but not enough, he needs to keep improving, but while he's improving there's really no point in dropping him. The next 3 games will be the decisive games for his career. He should see plenty of the ball against Tigers and the "pass mark" is perhaps 4 goals (including assists). Then he has a hard one against Brisbane, where he'll need to produce something, at least to have some effect on the game, against strong opposition. Then, if he hasn't blown it yet, a game against a team at a similar stage of development which will be a real indicator of how much we've improved, and he'll be expected to make a definite contribution.

And that's provided that either Stef or Jack doesn't kick a bag for Casey in the meantime. If Stef had got his 5 or 6 for Casey, it could have been different.

I fully support this but he should be retried.

Playing forward is hard unless your defense and midfield is so dominant that the ball comes in like candy.

Its a craft that has to be learned - where and when to lead.

You need to develop not only you own confidence but also the confidence of the ball carriers - if I was running through centre at the moment I would be kicking it to Green!

I think you perservere with him give him every chance and if there is no progress then see you later ...next!

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

I'm not debating the relative risks of a big body against small, but was SPECIFICALLY referring to dislocated shoulders. Totally agree that Watts should be physically ready, but if he were 15kg bigger of pure muscle, his shoulder would still be subject to the same mechanical risks as LJ's was. As a physio, I know what I'm talking about.

I though I detected some clinical expertise.

Your point is well made.

[tez 6]

There's an extraordinary degree of latitude being given to Michael Newton out there. I've seen EVERY game he's played for the Dee's since 2008, and probably 5 on TV for Sandy/Casey, and without wanting to be harsh, he is unequivocally the least deserving player currently getting a game for any club in the AFL. At no stage, EVER, have I seen him warrant reselection, and that includes his 'mark of the year' game. Strangely though, I expect him to be reselected this week, but would love to know the reason. By contrast, Stefan Martin is a 4th year footballer, and I mean 4th year since he started playing the game at all, is an athletic freak, and, which is something people forget, was an excellent tall defender in his first year. Then they started floating him around ruck and forward last year, which threw him off a bit. Clearly the reason for this, and the fact he has been contracted til the end of 2011, is to fashion him into a tall forward. This frankly excites me. His speed, leap, growing footy skills and judgement, will come to fruition in the future. It there is one thing that Stynes, Scwab, Connolly and Bailey seem to be, it is VERY committed to their vision, and they will not be rushed for short term appeasement.

Martin is a novice still learning let him stay at casey for a bit longer, remember we have invested heaps of time into juice and as strange as it sounds he may just click and kick a couple of bags rather say we tried everyhing in what should be his last year unless something dramatic changes.

In Juices defense i have seen a trasformation from him at casey with his total attitude to playing and his first half was 100 percent better than he ever gave us before and yes we won but in the first half we were disgusting even though juice and bennell fluffed a few chances the wind wasnt too kind and juice did get a couple of knocks to the body

verdict few more games and play him deep even when we press up to defend stay in the arc

[Demon trucker 1,800]

Who would you change Miller for, possibly Dunn?

sorry miller is finished as player should have traded him to Sydney if they where interested a year ago, the game has passed him by.

[rusty_kingswood 0]

I wonder if Miller can break into the seniors again?

Newton for mine. Much better shot on goal. This weekend he'll have a good chance to kick a bag.

He was pretty honest about his own form at the after match function. Said he wasnt super, for Casey. And that if we want him back, we may need to ring bails for him.

Might be a few weeks away id say.

[P-man 13,366]

I would say four needs.

1/ Needs to hold contested marks

2/ Needs to finish well (kick goals)

3/ Needs to put pressure on (defensively) and harrass when team is not in possession of the ball to pressure a turnover.

4/ Needs to present enough

1 is the bail out option when the ball carriers are under enough pressure or you isolate the defense and get a mismatch or a a good prospect that the crumbers can get on to.

2 is conversion of opportunities - some players get few opportunities but convert well enough to hold a spot

3 is about regaining the ball and also about getting enough opportunities to score

4 is about opportunities to score

Green - for his size does 1, 2 and 4

Had to pull this one up. Green also does 3 quite well imo. I won't hear a bad word spoken about Greeny's endeavour with or without the footy. Out of any player I feel most at ease when I see him in the forward line.

[Summer Blease 0]

Barring injury, Miller won't be playing another game for the Dees i'd imagine. He is a proven spud. To those that say 'Miller basher' may I retort by saying remove the rose coloured glasses and realise the man provides no target and absolutely no presense whatsoever!

The fact that a recently re-rookied then re-promoted Newton is playing ahead of him is testament to this fact, also the fact that we are playing better without him certainly doesnt help the cause.. Miller won't be back because he will just be getting in the way of a hopeful developing- and we have many more youngsters to try up forward- we are past the point of having to 'make do' we are evolving past the days of Miller and doesn't it feel just great?

[P-man 13,366]

Cheney is another one who may have to wait a good while before getting another call up.

*cue Cheney to be named for next week*

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Barring injury, Miller won't be playing another game for the Dees i'd imagine. He is a proven spud. To those that say 'Miller basher' may I retort by saying remove the rose coloured glasses and realise the man provides no target and absolutely no presense whatsoever!

The fact that a recently re-rookied then re-promoted Newton is playing ahead of him is testament to this fact, also the fact that we are playing better without him certainly doesnt help the cause.. Miller won't be back because he will just be getting in the way of a hopeful developing- and we have many more youngsters to try up forward- we are past the point of having to 'make do' we are evolving past the days of Miller and doesn't it feel just great?

Think about it. The same could have been said about Newts a month ago.In fact the same could be said of Newton today.

At the moment we are "making do" with Newton who has done nought to justify his position.

Newton got elevated not because Miller was so awful but Jurrah got injured.

Glad you have removed the rose coloured glass. Possibly the blinkers are on too tight though