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If we go through year with a relatively fit list and don’t make the 8 I’ll be bitterly disappointed. Simple as that.

Almost half the competition play finals, so making the 8 isn't being successful. For me success is finishing top 4 at the end of the H&A, because the premier nearly always comes from the top 4. If you finish top 4 you've given yourself what 14 other teams wanted, a realistic chance.

I’ll call making the finals this year a raging success. We were so very bad this year that you can’t just write it 100% down to injuries and surgeries. Not a lot of sides makes the finals off a 5 win season, so it would be a quite an achievement IMO if we make it.

Yep, Watts plainly should’ve done much more even though he suffered a badly broken leg and dislocated ankle in round 2 and was in rehab for the rest of the year. As an aside, in 2016 and 2017 Watts was ranked #2 in the competition for effective kicks inside 50. I reckon it’s fair to say we could’ve used a player like that last year.

Remember when he was told that he was getting number eight and he asked if he could sew it on sideways so that it resembled the symbol for infinity? Good times.

I too spent a nice morning perched on the Goschs fence trying to follow a lot of players and a lot of coaches in a lot of activity across the ground. Based on prior reports I was disappointed in the sessions intensity until I found out that they did the 3km time trial prior. Not much to add without repetition. I will say the three players who stood well above my expectations based on output and execution were Bedford, Dunkley and Weid. Special mention to Vanders who was in everything and moving at a fair tick, if he stays fit he will break some bodies in 2020.

For me in 2020; - finishing top 4 is a success; - finishing top 6 is a pass; - finishing below this is underwhelming; and - finishing outside of the 8 is a war crime.

I disagree. Melksham TMac and Petracca have elite attributes in the forward line. Frisch showed plenty in the last 7-8 games. Thats4 players of real quality. Only Petracca looked to be in a position of fully fit and playing forward last year. We have great competition for a second tall with weideman, petty, Jackson and Smith. Our gaping hole is forward pocket but we have some talent in Kossi, chandler and Bedford coming through. On paper if we got all those fit for round one we should do some damage.

It's a message board devoted to one thing. You can't get upset when people talk about parts of that one thing that you don't like.Let people talk about what they want. You can still have your say without getting bogged down in the stuff you don't like. Back on topic: Finals is a pass for me. There are other things besides making finals or making top 4 that we can analyse as part of being successful. I would like to see some players make that next step. Brayshaw and Petracca are my main two that I have high hopes for. Salem to find that extra 5% and added consistency. Harmes could actually keep improving. I think most people think he has improved enough but there isn't any reason why he couldn't jump up to A grade talent. Viney to stay injury free and remind a few on here about how he can actually play. Fingers crossed. I'm also looking forward to seeing what Fritsch, Weid and Petty provide up front. On paper our forward line is not great. I would love to say the opposite by the end of the year.

Sigh... These sanctimonious 'typical Demonland' statements you come out with are getting really tiresome. It's the off season. It's a thread discussing the upcoming season. Give it a rest.

Eyes forward.

In 2019 we could’ve done with Kent and Watts as goal kicking sources.

Sparrow is a solid player both physically and as a footballer. He moves well, his kicking is solid and his hands are pretty clean. I'm unsure of his lateral movement (not a negative, not a positive) because I've just not noticed it and I'd want a bit of evidence on that before I form a solid judgement. In my view it's a critical attribute. I do know there was some disappointment that he got injured last year as he would have got some game time in the seniors. All in all he's really just beginning. He had a good preseason last year and a few games in the seniors (due almost solely to injury) and then just went at Casey. My suspicion is he'll be a good solid player who might find a permanent role over time and will be good depth. He's done nothing to hurt his chances this PS but he hasn't jumped out of the box either. For me the one that has progressed from last year and has some really good AFL attributes (speed, kicking, good lateral movement, clean) is Chandler. It's very early days but he's my smokey based on "dancing with your sister" training. I agree with BRFE that Bedford has come on - looks like he's got some self belief this year - and has gone from a really long shot to much better than that. He's got great endurance (second in the two 3K time trials) and his skills are neat. The reality is that if we stay reasonably fit there are lots of players you'd like to see get games but many won't. Jordan, Chandler, Sparrow, Rivers, Jackson, Pickett, Lockhart, JSmith and Dunkley all show a bit. The fun will be to see which ones get a go and take their chance.

Had a bit of a wander around the park and took in a bit of the training this morning. @DeeSpencer, Jetta, Viney and Vanders were running fast laps earlier (while the main crew did the tan)...it looked as though Vanders was absolutely streeting them but turns out he was on a different program running sets of 2 laps while Jet and Vin were running continuos. Must say he did look in great shape though. Just a few general observations. Tomlinson is huge. Jackson moves well, positions himself well and is a nice kick. if he gets an early call up it will be as a forward, maybe with a run through the middle. In the ruck craft sessions Max moved him off his line way to easily but that's to be expected, a kid v the best in the game. For the time being Tomlinson may have to do the relief ruck work, not my ideal but we do what we do. Rivers has an AFL ready body, if he has a good preseason will play early. Tracs strength and balance are going to come to the fore this season...expect him to move up another notch, holds position nicely whilst fending off and taking the ball. Very hard to take off his line. Pickett offers us what we don't have up forward, don't be surprised if he plays first game. Good to see the numbers out on the track and looks like Tomlinson and Jones are not far off full training. They seemed to be putting in longer and harder work in the rehab group.

Today was a "quiet" return from the Christmas/New Year break, compared to the exhausting, relentless sessions that we saw before the break. Having said that, the players had already run a 3 km trial before starting the main exercises which lasted until nearly midday after a 9.30 or thereabouts start. The rehab group consisted of Tomlinson, Jones, Spargo, Baker & Hannan, who all seemed to be running freely with Jones and Tomlinson certainly at full stretch. They must be very close to return to the main group and with multiple pre-seasons behind them it would seem not so critical to their overall fitness. Viney, Jetta and VDB were running their own 3km around the oval ( perhaps they arrived late to go with the main group) but they still had to do it. It really gladdened the heart to see VDB absolutely "street" the other two, and was a good 300m ahead of them at the end. Not sighted today were Joel Smith, May ( who apparently was in the gym inside) and of course KK ( mmm..) and Neitschke. I can't say that I noticed Marty Hore either, but others may be able to confirm that. Bennell turned up for 5 minutes, but didn't participate (mmm...) Brayshaw was wearing the number 43 which confused the watchers for a while, especially with a hat on to disguise himself even further. We even saw "the invisible man" Kyle Dunkley, called such because he will get 25 touches in a game and nobody notices..... he does the same at training! And that is the main observation from today. Of the 44 on the list 35 were on the track in full training. What a comparison with last year!! It means that the coaches can run nearly 2 teams in match simulation, something that was never done in 2019. Now I haven't much to report about the actual session, because it was just a series of drills with a small half ground match sim for only 15 minutes or so. Scoop Junior has covered off most of this in an earlier post. Just another observation in that Chandler has stacked on the muscle, and was heavily involved in all the midfield exercises. In sharp contrast Preuss has lost a heap of weight and for those that can't get to training, when you see him during season proper you will simply not recognise him from before! It was good to see Lewis and Stafford running goal kicking practice at the end with a final competition to see who didn't miss. I won't steal BB's thunder, so he can let you know later......

The amount of blatant misinformation that has been spread by certain sectors of the media (not to mention social media) truly is a disgrace, even by their usual standards. The fact that no-one gets held to account for publishing such demonstrably inaccurate information is a joke. Lots of these myths get rehashed after every major fire, but it seems to be out of control this year. The thing is, most of these myths, regardless of political leanings, can be dispelled using simple logic that doesn't exactly require a PhD. Yet somehow, these myths still gain widespread traction. A few of my favourites: It's arson: As others have said, even if a substantial number of fires were started by arsonists (which they demonstrably weren't), why did so many arsonists suddenly crop up in 2019? It's staggering that some people still trot this out. Banned cattle grazing in the high country: Ignoring the science that cattle do SFA to reduce fuel loads in NP's (it's not very often that you see a herd of cattle devouring a gum tree), there are more big herbivores grazing the bush now than ever. Populations of deer and, further north, feral horses (heritage listed no less - don't get me started on that wisdom) have exploded in recent times. They're currently in far greater numbers than cattle ever were. Why aren't they slowing the fires, and why would cattle do anything different? Banned firewood collection in NP's: Seriously? Millions of hectares have been burnt - exactly how much firewood were you expecting people to be collecting? It's the Greens fault for stopping planned burns: Even if they did oppose planned burns (which they don't), how are such a minor party so influential in managing bushland? Lack of backburning: Anyone who brings this up doesn't know what backburning actually is. End rant

It's boring, it's 2020, Watts, Hogan, Lumumba, Gysberts et al no longer play for club, let it go, they should be of no interest whatsoever The club gets accused about being behind the times, nothing compared to some on here I am focused on new season, I just want a consistent competitive team, thst for me will be a success

A week without a new thread on Demonland dredging up something from the past A successful year is a consistent year of footy that's at least competitive against all teams and that leads to enough wins to make finals, from there who knows?

For me a top 4 finish is s pass mark. I don't buy in to pessimism and I believe we are every chance to make top 4. From there it is gong to take a bit of luck but I am looking forward to watching this year unfold. On paper this is the most balanced side we have had for a considerable time. Inside bulls, outside runners, solid defence and potentially both tall and small forwards. It is gong to come down to fitness and form. I can't see the point in being pessimistic, for me it just kills the joy. This team could be anything, I'm behind them becoming premiers.

So just looking back on the 2018 W/L record and ladder again - another 1 win and we finish 3rd and play WC in Perth for the 2nd Qualifying final, another 2 wins and we finish 2nd and play WC in Melb. Sydney in Rd 21 was the other very winnable game that we through away. At the time there was uproar and panic on Demonland that it was the game that would see us miss our opportunity to make finals. In retrospect, it was a game that prevented us from finishing top 4. I know hindsight is kind of useless is some respects, but I think it can also be a useful guide and learning tool. That game against Sydney also really sums up the step change in maturity that those core players like Oliver, Brayshaw, Trac, Viney and even Max need to take. My recollection of that game was that we absolutely blew them out of the water in the first quarter and established what really should have been a match winning lead. Instead we enabled Sydney to peg back the lead over the course of the 2nd quarter and then start to dominate and dictate the game. A mature side would have known how and when to defend that lead and close out the game. I really do think that in 2018 we showed we were close to good enough. Really looking for us to go to that next level and become clinical and consistent in seizing the opportunities that present.

Lumumba was one of the softest Melbourne players I've had the misfortune to lay my eyes on.

2019: Watts 2 games 0 goals. Kent 13 games 12 goals.....not much in the way of goal kicking sources.

Jordan lewis on SEN late afternoon was asked about Smith and stated that he had a cut on his foot that kept him off the track today.

Chatted to jones, Tomlinson and Hannan today. Looking at main group in the next week for Jones and Tomlinson. Hannan about 3 weeks.

The session was definitely low/medium intensity - as in minimal physical contact or tackling etc. Drills seemed to be focused on threading zone traffic by hand and maintaining possession. Both leaving defence and full field drills. They Practiced overhead marking. Forwards and defenders. Each full field drill ended with ball kicked to a leading forward inside 50, with the marking player completing the shot on goal. Not sure if this is to keep goal kicking front of mind in training. A heap of running. The 3k time trial and then most players did repeat 100 metre sprints later in the session while others did the 3/4 field drills. Wind was atrocious at times so foot skills harder to judge - they seemed to handle it ok, but not great. Bennell walked around the whole session and acted as a witches hat in drills. Obviously being encouraged to get amongst it but clearly under instruction to not run and not kick as yet. Forget anything but 2nd half of the year at best. May missing is a concern to me also given his history.

I headed down to training early as we usually hit the track well ahead of schedule. Vanders was the first to arrive and did a slow lap with a few leg stretches as well. Saty was next but I didn't take much notice of him but he seems to have eaten well over Christmas. Jones, Hannan and Tomlinson arrived and wondered over to rehab with Baker joining them a few minutes later. Bennell was there doing nothing and did so all day. I didn't see him do any training at all. KK and May were missing as well as Joel Smith. The main group arrived about 5 minutes later and did some gentle running and exercises and then over to the tan for the 3K trial. Needless to say ANB led them home with Bedford only 15 metres behind. Nibbler looked as though he'd at least done the run this time compared to the first 3Ker when he seemed to hardly break into a sweat. Cory Wagner, Langdon and TMac were next in (from memory) and over the next few minutes they all arrived. Preussy beat Max home and all the mids were well bunched. Back to Gosch's for what is now called a craft session with the players breaking into about 3 groups and doing drills that have already been documented. Then finally we got a three quarter ground match sim drill but it didn't seem flat out to me and there was little if no tackling although it did get a bit willing at times. It was hard to pick a standout with lots involved at various stages. TMac, Weid, Petty, Fritsch and Melk were the main forward targets and they rotated throughout the drills. Overall players to impress me were Pickett who kicks just as well on both feet, Vanders who seems to be "right", Trac (again) with a mention to Weid who handled the ball well and kicked with confidence. At the end there was a goal kicking competition involving Trac, Fritta, Jordan, Preuss and Hunt. They took shots until they were eliminated and I won't tell you the answer just yet - I'll let some healthy speculation take place. All in all a warm up session I'd say. Conditions weren't easy but they weren't terrible either.

VDB was my standout at training.. before I left after an hour. He still needs to work on building up his calf muscles but he looked clean, crisp and extremely fit and strong as he was fully involved with all training exercises. Kickett will be a crowd favourite with his sublime skills which were on regular show despite the difficulties brought by the strong wind. Lever and Brown look like porn stars with the hair growth on the upper lips TMac seems to be a few kgs lighter whilst his brother seems slightly more robust. Petracca definitely wins the body of the day award.. he looked ripped beyond comparison with anyone else at the club.

Posting this as a question, based on a proposition. I know this might seem like a somewhat strange and over ambitious given the 2019 that we have just endured, but to me, just stumbling over the line and making finals in 2020 would not represent enough of an improvement or step forward for me to get excited about. In my lifetime, I watched many talent laden MFC teams show loads of promise and even make a grand final or two, but barely any that I have watched have played consistently well enough finish the season in a preimship winning position of being in the upper echelon of the ladder with all it's perks of getting a double change and potential rest weeks at the pointy end. In the 80s, this would have ment a top 3 finish and now a days it's top 4. I follow the MFC aspiring to one day watch them win a premiership. Making finals is simply not enough for me. I've watched the MFC play lots of finals over the last 30 years, notch up some good wins in them. I have seen the MFC play the kind of dominant kind of foot where myself and fellow supporters have rued watching GF's that we though we could have won, but been unable to contend after being bundled out of finals series at critical times. The reality is that for a number of reasons, unless teams finish in the top 4, they don't really have a fighting chance of making, let alone winning a GF. Is finishing top 4 in 2020 a realistic objective? - I think it is. Richmond in 2017 went from 13th to 3rd. In 2018, although we only just stumbled into the finals series, from recollection, we were only a couple of wins off finishing top 4, with very winnable games against Geelong (twice), St Kilda and Port Adelaide that come to mind. I'm really hoping that 2019 was somewhat of an arbitration and this year we have an 'easy' draw to help us - something which probably helped the Tigers in 2017. Our lack of compressiveness in 2019 was hard to watch and down right depressing at times, but in spite of that I wasn't that upset about it, because unless we won the premiership, then it was just another wasted season in the amoung the many that I have a supporter. I know that the team would be silly to publicly overtly state finishing top 4 as being the aim for the home and away season, but I really do hope that's what it is internally when guys like Roos have previously spoke about playing the kind of footy that will make us competitive in finals and push deep into September. Over the coming years as we enter that all important age/experience 'window' within our list, I really hope to see us adopt a new level of maturity, professionalism and ruthlessness that playing finals becomes an expectation and finishing top 4 and playing in premierships is the aim, not just making finals and I don't see why that shouldn't start in 2020.

I had to really think about this. I'm not really the biggest stats guy, more of an eyeball assessment. It's difficult to say 'He needs to get 3 more effective kicks'. I've been vocal in the past about how Champion Data does the best job possible of applying ranking points to a game that is impossible to rank accurately. But in this context there is no other observable metric than can be applied correctly. Salem averaged 90 Supercoach points this year in total. He was on track for 95 before a severe drop off in the last few rounds. An increase of 5% on top of 95 is 99.75. I agree with you on most points here. So it must be the 'Great on paper' part you disagree with me on. TMac - Agree. Melksham - Agree. Petracca - Agree, but he will hopefully be playing a lot more midfield this year. Fritsch - Agree. Really looking forward to seeing him play forward all year. I think it could be amazing. Weideman - is still only potential at this stage. Hopefully he is injury free and has the year we expected he was going to have last year. Petty - Promising but very raw. I was excited about what he showed forward last year, but he is gaining hype among supporters which isn't realised yet. Jackson, Smith are pure hope at this stage and on paper do not register. So really, we have one tall forward with runs on the board, some promosing second talls, some really good mid size players. No small. As I said, I hope by the end of the year we can say otherwise bit right now? Thats not great.

Plainly we don’t agree on the value of Watts’ attributes.. In short, I think his attributes have value, it seems you don’t - not at AFL level at least. Relevantly, a good mate of mine (who’s a Port supporter and who’s very well connected at the club) told me that Watts is well regarded at Port and that they were expecting him to have a really good season in 2019 off half back. Despite his well documented activities in Munich immediately following season 2018, he apparently had a great preseason and was set for a big year. A badly broken leg put paid to that. Make of this what you will. I expect you’ll attribute zero credence to it. The fact is however that Watts has skills which are recognised by knowledgeable people in the industry. This is a fact, not my opinion. As an aside, I remain a Goodwin supporter, but I think even he would acknowledge that he has adjusted his settings on contested beasts and that he now (partially) respects players with good foot skills - i.e. he may now have more respect for Jack Watts’ attributes than he did a couple of years ago. Anyway - Jack is not the enemy. Against his will, he was traded to another club. He seems to have accepted it and moved on. Why keep bagging him?

All depends on exactly what one means by succcess. If I was a North supporter I'd feel that my club had been reasonably successful in recent times since I agree with Saty's modest defintion of success (competitive against all clubs) and that is a prerequisite for finals success. Obviously North fans, I and I presume Saty are greedy for more. But other factors like finance which might lead to 'unsuccess' are another matter and of less immediate concern to me. I don't chew pencils at the footy or swear at the TV worrying about relegation to Tas. To be provocative, I wonder how many posters whose fervent wish is 'just win a cup before I die' would rank that wish below or above MFC surviving for 20 years after they kicked the bucket...... (/end-sacrilege-head-to-bomb-shelter)

I reckon 98 was a lost opportunity. Those 2 finals against stkilda and adelaide were awesome. Unfortunately nth got us in the prelim. Having just finished regarding Neale's book it's interesting to read when he talks about the 2000 gf & how that night at the function he saw the players standing around and having a laugh and he thought you have just lost a grand final, how could you not be angry, disappointed or even sad because he was. He wanted the players to be hurting because he was. He then mentioned how we haven't made a gf since. It's what we say about our club. They either get caught up in the hype, don't learn from losses, fall into the media trap of believing there great or just expect things will happen. They are a frustrating club to watch but you know what each year I renew my membership and show up to the games. One day it will click for us.

Nope. Nope and nope.

Yes but we need to win the first finals game. To expect more after scrapping into the finals in 2018 and then finishing second last in 2019 is expecting miracles and they never happen in the real world.

Thanks for the reports. Worrying that May was not running with the main group. He's one of our most important players and I think our 2020 fortunes are tied to his performance.

Jurrah ate him for breakfast in the softness stakes. Lumumbas biggest problem was his softness between the ears. A huge dose of self importance can do that to a bloke.

He was dropped for the very reasons which are well known here and which I expect you wish to highlight. He is not the complete player. I also suspect he’s matured since 2018 and he’s no longer taking things for granted. He had an impressive start to 2019. In my view, if Watts is used effectively, he can be a very valuable player. He possesses skills which I think are relevant to modern day footy i.e effective disposal, decisions with and use of the football etc. Clearly many experts do not share my view. That said, some do - for eg, Paul Roos. 2020 will obviously be the big test for him.

We're getting so far off topic here, but Ted Bundy was the serial killer that preyed on hitchhikers, whilst Dahmer mainly used to lure men back to his home before murdering them then doing unspeakable things with their bodies. It was also Dahmer who was alleged to have said to Lorena Bobbitt "You weren't gonna throw that away, were you?".

Well... For starters, he was still grieving the loss of Muhammad Ali.?

MFC's official training photos are on the improve, but not sure why they would include photos of players drinking water. Last time l checked you get zero Champion Data points

Didn't want to post this as I thought it might get the Oscar bashers salivating...was standing near where it happened. Melk had back position, Oscar in front and the ball was put up to Melk's advantage, nice bit of body work to edge Oscar under the ball. Given that everyone was going through the motions I wouldn't write a lot into it.

Those who I didn't see train with the main group: May, Jones, Spargo, KK, Hannan, Tomlinson, Nietschke, Baker, Smith, Bennell Noticed Spargo, Jones, Hannan and Tomlinson on far side with rehab group. May have been a few others but couldn't see from the other side of the ground. Started with a few kicking drills. First drill was just step to the side around the man on the mark and hit a pass about 20m away. The second had a player kicking to a leading target with three guys around the kicker (one on each side and one behind). One of the three players would then apply pressure. I thought this was quite clever because training often has fake pressure (as in you know where the pressure is coming from) whereas in this one, while you knew there would be pressure, it appeared as if the player didn't know if it was coming from the side or behind. The next kicking drill was in a small group in a confined area with a few defenders/pressure players. It was basically get it and kick straight away, requiring a quick decision where to go and the need to balance and execute quickly off just a few steps. They then did some match sim but not with the full group and only in half a ground. There was a bit of pressure but it wasn't a full-on match sim which I saw a few times prior to the Christmas break. Again there was a lot more kicking than handballing. Conditions were fairly difficult with the heat and a strong wind. Just before I left they continued with the half-ground quasi match sim, but this time it started with a stoppage on the wing. Here there were a lot of groundball gathers and quick handballs, and then finally they would be told to release where a handball would set up a free player who would then clear the stoppage with a kick towards half forward. For these guys to run a 3km time trial in that heat and then train for a few hours after that - AFL footballers really are exceptional athletes. Not many individual observations different to what has been reported pre-Christmas, but one I did see was Luke Jackson take a set shot on goal during match sim. He has a nice set-shot kicking action, relaxed and pretty uncomplicated. It was close to goal but the action seemed fairly sound. People have queried whether as a basketballer he would need to learn to kick but to me (and yes it's only training) I wouldn't have even noticed he was new to footy based on his set-shot action.

What from mowing the lawn? The guy can’t take a trick.

Thanks for all the reports Now it all starts again

Can any watchers elaborate, How is the ground at Gosch's this year.? Is the surface soft enough, compared to the apparent concrete surface of last year.? Does is look in better 'nick', Re greenness, and IF someone could check with a key or similar, to see if there's enough moisture content, to protect the boys feet and joints.?

And yet you quote them in support of your (incorrect) assertion that arsonists are responsible for the current bushfires.