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Epic whinge from Ox. We haven't had that many number 1 picks and we only have 1 number 1 pick on the list, he complains about the development of players over the years but that is barely Roos' fault, the development under Roos has been very good. This screams of frustrated supporter, which is fine, but look at the facts, we have basically a new team that in age and experience profile is worse than the one Roos took over yet we are winning far more games and have twice the percentage. That is marked improvement. Do I wish we were better, yes, do I think we should be better, yes, do I also look and think we are in a better place now than 3 years ago and with a much brighter future, absolutely. Do I also worry that Goody may not take this team where it has the potential to go, yes but only time will tell.

Brayshaw is a Rolls Royce and I feel for supporters that don't have the ability to see class when it's smacking them in the face. Someone is even insinuating he's slow. Good God. This 20 year old 25 game player will be an emerging star of the game when he's played 100 games and is 24. He has genuine talent in close, can break away on smart angles and use it superbly off both feet. He's exceptionally tough and good overhead. He's everything you want in a midfielder. Until a player has 30 games under their belt they're really just feeling their way, but some of the things this guy does at his age smacks of a future star. He, Viney and Oliver will all be better players than Nathan Jones, so the platform for a strong midfield is well and truly in place.

The better posters here would have a far better understanding of our "current" playing stocks and list development than David. He's letting off steam, which is fine, but I wouldn't be asking him for an in-depth analysis when it comes to Melbourne.

Not sure if you guys heard him or just read the articles, but when he goes on these rants you can hear how passionate he is about the Dees and I for one relate to his frustration. I honestly don't think he does this for headlines, or at least just for headlines, he is just genuinely wanting us to succeed.

No they wouldn't. If they didn't improve on what they have achieved already then we would have Brayshaw, averaging under 13 possessions per game, and Clayton Oliver averaging 18. Please show a list of "bloody good players" (midfield) who average this over a career? It would be a disaster for us. We continually rate our blokes as fantastic players, based on the fact that they are young, and will obviously improve. They need to improve a heap, to become the elite midfielders that we are crying out for. same with Petracca.

Just a frustrated supporter letting off steam the next day, much like the rest of us. Only difference is Ox has a microphone and a much larger audience to vent at. Putting aside the accuracy of his comments on development, I don't mind him doing this. It provides a counterpoint to the general ambivalence from the football media. This was arguably the greatest test of the season with finals still on the line at a ground and against a team where the club has a horrific record. By and large, that test was failed dismally. A blowtorch should be applied, and if Ox doesn't do it, few others could be bothered to do so.

I have never subscribed to the theory that you need to have played "x" amount of games, before you can show the required intensity to win games at the top level, and there is absolutely no doubt that the Saints went at it harder than we did on the weekend. That sort of effort inspires the sort of comments that Ox said.

in other games looks like Pyke and Bucks had completely different views in their match ... ADELAIDE v COLLINGWOOD5 Brad Crouch (Adel)5 Tom Lynch (Adel)4 Rory Sloane (Adel)4 Daniel Talia (Adel)3 Ricky Henderson (Adel)3 Jarryd Lyons (Adel)2 Ben Sinclair (Coll)2 Adam Treloar (Coll)1 Taylor Adams (Coll)1 Brodie Grundy (Coll)

Don't always agree with you but il back you on this one as i listened to it on SEN and the way i got out of it was that he was genuinely frustrated as a Melbourne supporter. He didn't have his media hat on. He spoke passionately because i think it was Leach who asked him what his thoughts as a Melbourne supporter and he answered no different to what we all say on here. And i agree with big Ox.

The whole culture thing is a myth, always has been and not just for the Swans. The only thing that really matters where culture at a sporting club is concerned is getting a talented bunch of people on the same page playing good footy. Setting up a winning culture has nothing to do with players being role models, great citizens or any other rubbish being trotted out by AFL media people and football clubs. It's a bunch of kids who can play footy with the right structure in place to see them play to their peak, nothing else. No club is clean & the AFL have managed to keep a lid on things, this is the tip of the iceberg.

What if Sydney can offer him $700k? He is worth what the market will pay, and to me a very good KPD, with plenty of potential and scope for improvement (he is still so young), is worth a lot. There are lots of teams desperate for defenders. Hurley will command $800k a year easily. McDonald is younger and hasn't spent a year out of the game. McDonald is probably worth around $500k per year, but I would rather pay him overs, than spend the next 10 years saying we didn't win a final because we don't have good enough defenders.

Well i guess we just disagree i shared quite a few beers with The Ox when he had his Pub in South Melbourne i can assure you he is a Red and Blue Demon to the core. I remember when Sheedy tore us apart. We were absolute shite then. What could be said to defend what Schwab and Pendergrast along with the rest of that regimedid to the club? Don't forget it was The Ox that wrote that article in the Geelong Addy that was the final nail for Neeld. He wants Demon Success. Don't knock it.

I can hear the press conference at the end of this year. Prestia: "Melbourne have a really good young list and I want to be apart of that. I grew up barracking for Melbourne and I want to make sure they're back up the top where they should be." During December, Weitering decides he too wants to go to Melbourne, the club he supported as a kid and does a handshake deal with Mahoney to come over at the end of 2017. Who says romance in footy is dead?

Jonesy had an absolute stinker and Bernie failed to impact the game. Other than those 2, we don't have any experienced leaders to stand up in games. Hoping Brayshaw, Viney, Petracca, Hogan, T.Mac, Gawn and Salem can turn into those leaders. Saints currently have the leaders. We don't. Simple as that

I think the biggest thing that has stalled our development is the injuries to young players. we're still basically on par with the Saints but we've had Hogan miss a full season Petracca miss a full season Brayshaw miss a good chunk of a season Salem miss a good chunk of two seasons coming from a list as void of talent as ours was only three years ago we couldn't afford this to happen. it's not just the in game development they've missed it's the games together that they haven't had, that's where it all builds from Brayshaw and Petracca only just played their first game together. we're seeing so many really good signs of the talent these guys have got but we're so inconsistent because we can't get them all on the park together, and when we do it's not for 5-6 games in a row so they can build into some form.

There is something in Melbourne's DNA for the last few years that is very disturbing. The same pattern keeps re occurring over and over again. Maybe we need someone like Dr Rudy Webster to break this cycle.

Happy to flop them on the table with this bloke. Will be elite.

What an odd post

Wet toast are very gettable this year, and gettable this week. Unfortunately though, our team has far too many takers and not enough getters. No chance! Some may not like it but I think Jones needs to be rested. He doesn't look right, and if it has anything to do with his neck stuff from last year, with finals out of play, perhaps he should sit out the remainder and get himself right for next year. Gives someone a chance to play his role and see if we can develop them into greater options next year. Talking ANB, Oliver, Michie, Brayshaw.

Even being off the pace, his 23 touches and 7 clearances were both career highs. After a long layoff with concussion issues it was a fine return.

Still think you are carrying on a bit Chris. Other clubs would take the rocket, and come out breathing fire. Just because our blokes might be, on average, a few of months younger than other clubs, does not give an excuse for being immune to criticism.

I've hardly read any of the thread but I'm behind the OX 100%. And whoever reckons he was just chasing a headline obviously doesn't have a clue.

Yes exactly and the Ox played in a period where we almost broke that losing stigma. The Ox can say what he likes about Melbourne take a look at his '94 highlights he delivered.

TGR I agree the lack of leg speed on Sunday compared to the Saints was so obvious and I worry that our game plan, such as it was, doesn't suit our playing stocks. Too much handball and to players not in the clear. The one or two times we went coast to coast for a score was all by foot. The Saints did it time and time again and it was mostly by foot. They spread well but often this was not based on speed, if they got possession in their backline they often had two free players already wide on the opposite boundary waiting for the switch. It looked like a set play to me and we never woke up to it but worse we don't have the equivalent that I can see. If we switch play the receiver will usually find he has no one free and will kick to a contest up the line or kick in board which is a high risk, medium reward tactic for us anyway. The Saints, Blues and Dogs all developed coherent, free flowing game plans inside 6 months with their new coaches. Their ability to execute varies but you can see where they are headed. We have been at this for 3 years and still it seems players don't automatically know where to go; we don't have any set plays for kick outs, if TMac intercepts at half back and decides to switch play our guys don't immediately take off to provide the next target in the chain, they will mostly be on the other side watching. Oh can we leave someone forward at all times? There were a number of times we got a turnover in our back half but then had no where to go as no one was forward of center. The discussion last week on why Hawthorn is 18th on the contested possession differential was interesting. Scott Lucas put forward the theory that the Dorks are happy to have less people at the contest and have more loose on the outside and maintain people both back and forward no matter where the contested ball is. This configuration allows them to score easily when they do get a turnover.

Well I must be one of those nuffers Vo Po because it seems to me 50 + years is a [censored] long journey and inept efforts like last Sunday indicate there is no end in sight.

Too many people think that winning is the only sign of improvement. The reality is we have been 'in' every game excluding 3 maybe 4 right up until 3qtr time. Our percentage is actually pretty good, god only knows the last time it was 100+ for this long. We havent played 2 horrible games in a row. We have brought it right up to some pretty good teams, hopefully we can steal a result at some point. We all knew games like this were gonna happen, unfortunate it happened against the saints twice but why does everyone need to panic? We are gonna have more dissapointing losses doesnt mean we arn't improving.

You could go to the SEN website and listen to the podcast on it if it helps? Honestly, I hear him like this after some of our poor games like Sunday's one, and he comes across always as a Dees fan first, media guy second. He's a bit like Demonland, he rants and raves the day after a game and then settles during the week and let's himself get his hopes up again.

All valid points about our record against the Saints and Dicklands but it's a bit rich taking aim at Roos and the current FD for the work they've done at this stage. Sunday was rubbish but this is over the top commentary by a bloke grabbing for a headline which he got.

You would have to be kidding 'steve'...Tyson is an integral part of our team, he didn't have a good one but he wasn't on his own there. If he had a run of bad games I could at least understand where you are coming from but he's been pretty good and is our extractor. ANB doesn't have the strength yet to extract the ball like Tyson can at AFL level.

MFCSS at its finest. We are playing the youngest team in the comp week in week out. We gave up 18 months and 30 games experience to the saints. Did anyone envisage that after 3 years of Roos we'd have the youngest team? I doubt he did. I doubt Jackson did when he said we were aiming for finals. This year has proven one thing only: we were worse that anyone thought. After 3 years we still have senior payers who are affected by the past decade. After the years we are still relying on the kids to win the games. I know we are success starved and want instant results but it is another couple of years before our list gets to that point. Have patience and see it out.

State sponsored russian doping http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jul/18/wada-report-russia-sochi-winter-olympics?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard The afl would give them new athletes and allow them to compete...

Today on Demonland we have seen Angus and Oliver both written off. 10 years of losing to St Kilda has driven us crazy.

Things happen when he has the ball. Simple as that. He's still an incredibly exciting prospect. Such a typical Melbourne supporter attitude to criticise a high draft pick 25 games who has been hit heavily with injury and concussion this year. Watch the Geelong game from last year to remind yourself of how good he's going to be.

I reckon he'll be an absolute gun.

$700k for a player who struggles to kick straight is hilarious!

Aw, Jesus. Can't this club get anything right?

Bloody hell Chris. Talk about blowing something completely out of proportion! He was a venting supporter, who was annoyed (rightly in my view) by our terrible performance on the weekend. Its as simple as that. Trying to make out it could play a part in something catastrophic, is hysterical in the extreme. You are better than that. That's almost conspiracy theory stuff.

So we have a mediocre list now do we? Righto. I'd choose Melbourne over Richmond every day of the week and take a $100k less to play in a team on the rise.

Ox should join Demonland

Chris and ProDee have hit it on the head. I'm always surprised how people like Ox, who have played so much footy and work in the industry, have so little understanding of list development. I'm confident that in most games this season we have fielded a team that has less experience in terms of games and has been younger than our opposition. History shows that when you do that you are at a disadvantage. We've won seven games. That's a good result in those circumstances and is grounds for much confidence. Ox is just looking at a small spot in our journey and is frustrated. Roos has been exceptional in his rebuilding of the club and will leave it infinitely better than he found us. I don't like the man but credit where it's due and I thank him for what he's done. Ox is mouthing the frustration of the nuff nuff's who don't understand the journey we are on.

But why should they avoid pressure? They deserve it after Sunday.

Yes, I know it wasn't good enough. I wasn't implying that it was. I don't agree with your assertion that he did not look behind the pace of the game though. Besides the event in question (and I don't recall one in the first quarter, but others do so I will take your word(s) for it), I thought his ability to compete for the ball and use it cleanly and quickly was a feature of his game. To me he looked a totally different player to the one we saw earlier in the year, but I must have been the only one to see it that way.

ANB's problem is that he tears it up as No.1 mid for the Scorps, then when he gets promoted, has to play HFF. In games where we get smashed, HFF is a real graveyard - all the traffic is the other way except for the odd scrappy kick which is easily picked off by the defence. So he has no effect on the game and he gets dropped. He never gets the chance to prove himself as a mid at AFL level. The same applies to all our Scorps mids that get promoted.

I almost stopped being interested after Sunday's effort. Every year seems to bring a game that breaks my heart and Sunday was it for this year. I have little faith that we can win another game but like a desperate addict I may go back for more punishment.

Viney and Maxy are both elite.

We have some of the worst supporters. Give the kids sometime to develop You're saying based on 1 game he won't be elite. He has played 20 games of football. Will be a star!!!!

well 500k on the old cap is probably 550-600k on the new cap. so if his manager is asking 700k it not a silly ambit position

I gotta say though this seems to be the way Demonland works every week. We have a win and we've got so much inside talent we don't know where to find a place for it all. We lose and suddenly we need mids. I'm of the opinion that we need more A grade talent in the middle as that's where games are won and lost. Not off the half back flank.

IN: Bugg, Frost, Oliver, Stretch OUT: Grimes, M. Jones, Kennedy, White