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First point is that progress in the AFL is rarely linear. My prediction of very mild improvement for this year (2015), might be replaced by a prediction of rapid improvement for 2016. For the dumb SEN blokey football media and football supporters, that can't understand why we can beat Geelong, Collingwood, and Richmond; yet be pulvarised by the Saints, Bulldogs & Carlton, don't really have a deep understanding of football at all. Garry Lyon included. As I have said here for over 2 months, ignoring the best 2-3 teams in the competition, speed kills us. The bulldog massacre on the quick deck at Etihad just epitomised it. We want to think it is about effort and intensity, but you have to be able to get to an opponent to actually tackle them. Just think about our reliable, mature ball-winners. Jones aint fast. Tyson aint fast. Cross aint fast. Vince aint fast. Gawn as a ruck aint Stef Martin or Nick-Nat. Viney aint slow, but he has been wisely put into a defensive-first gig at this early stage in his career. On the fringes, Toumpas, Trengove etc... aint fast either. To be blunt, we have a serious deficiency of speed where it matters. To highlight a deficiency of effort over this is too easy, too lazy and really doesn't get to the crux of what our problems are. The other issue is the introversion. I understand why Roos can see the "veil of negativity" throughout the club. But I don't think this is entirely accurate. Any negativity is actually the product of introverts everywhere. Since I have posted on ology from the early 2000s, my mantra has been to the club and its supporters, that ego is not such a bad thing. An ego or a strut, with a little bit behind it, can actually lift many around you, and can blowtorch any "veil of negativity". Look at the story of a young Luke Hodge. With Hawthorn as cellar-dwellers, and Brisbane at or just off the peak of its powers, Jonathon Brown recalls a young Luke Hodge sledging the likes of Brown, Voss, Black and Lappin. The Melbourne Football Club, for whatever reason, has recruited/attracted/retained a plethora of introverts. We had no choice but to choose one as captain for goodness sakes. But not only have are we a collective of introverts, we have actually play like introverts. Go have a look at our run and carry and bouncing stats before this season, and you will find it at Tackers level on a wet boggy day. I applaud the club for getting Garlett and Lumumba as it addresses this in some small way. All the MFC needs is a bit of speed and a bit of strut. As Lethal says, things aren't as bad as you think. Roos and Co. can talk about culture, and defense first, and consistency. TGR will talk about speed and strut. The next captain needs to have self-belief. Since the Grimes/Trengove experiment, we have been scared of appointing youth. While I love how Roos has taken the microscope off the next young saviour of the MFC; the leadership needs to exude confidence. As for speed, why the hell is Billy Stretch in and out of the side? I realise games should be earned, but what is wrong with getting games into players that we urgently need. As for us supporters, we do need to realise where we have come from. The gold that we have let slip and the trash (recycled short-term players) we have bought in, especially in the Neeld era. For a rudderless on-field club to let two AFL captains go (Wines & Rockliff), and a multi-dimensional mobile tall in Martin can't be erased from thought. Us supporters think in a dichotomy of black and white. Either Roos is a messiah, or he is yesterday's man. Not too many of us think deep and grey. Lets not forget that Robert Walls called for the head of Paul Roos in June 2005. Three months later, he became a premiership coach; and this goes back to my non-linear argument in relation to progress. The other thing that us supporters do, is have a crack at journalists that critique the club and/or its coaching. The irony is that those that have had a critical point of view of the MFC for the last 15 years, have been closer to the mark, than those of us inside the club, and those that support the club. It is about time, we objectively take on the critique, than typically playing the man and having a go at Caro and Lloyd etc... I am sure you over-celebrated the Geelong/Collingwood wins; and I am sure you over-grieved the Carlton loss. Just suck it up, think deep and grey, and as Matthews says, all is not as bad as it seems. Purest TGR

What I don't get is how supporter negativity impacts our players ability to kick, handball, spread and tackle?!

I wasn't around (much) during our last successful period of the 50s/early 60s. My comments refer to the period from late 60s to now. The MFC has always been a soft option club. We are a nice club. Our supporters are nice (generally), our players are nice. We rarely rock the boat. We follow the trend. We have a messiah complex. Weather it's bringing Barassi back, or being saved by Gutnick's millions, or being saved by a recent premiership coach. In the 90's we decided that merging would solve all our problems. An integrated training, social and administration complex located near the MCG? No way. Can't be done. Merge. Our blueprint for the future? Merger. In the early 80's we tried to but a premiership with Moore and Templeton. Unsuccesful. In the late 00's we thought tanking for priority picks was the way to get success. Win matches? No way. Play to lose - it's the way forward. We'll be playing finals in 3 years. We went for the assistant coach at a successful club to lead us forward. We did however, buck the trend on occasion. Northey's "us verses them" mentality that galvanised a young team with talent was a refreshing change. As was Daniher's early tenure as coach. But through all this we lurched from one administration to another. With little or no succession plan and outrageous strategies that just created white noise and distraction i.e Team Melbourne (anyone remember this fiasco?) and our fascination with China being some sort of panacea to our problems. We are seen as an establishment club, a club with a proud history but little recent success. A club whose supporters go to the snow and clap politely and say "Go Dees". Well, so what. I like being associated with a club with nice supporters. I like our heritage. Lets embrace who we are and start to be masters of our own destiny. Stop following what everyone else is doing and start doing what will work for us, on and off the field. By following what is being done today means we will never catch up tomorrow. Everyone else will have moved on. Stop taking the soft option and stop being followers.

Exactly what Roos is saying. Judge him over the 5 minutes he has been here; and not the 5 decades you have been hurting. I agree with him 100% about us supporters who can't see the big picture; who get over-excited by a win; and over-deflated about a loss or two. Emotional, subjective and irrational.

I have missed only two Dees games in our city since the late 1950's , both through illness . My late father ( b.1908 ) did much the same . It's just what we do .

Every Demon fan will be hoping Goody can coach...

I want to be a one club player.

Was Paul Roos on the dole before we employed him? Are you guys serious? How dumbed down is this debate? I ditched Foxtel because I had a gutful of Mark Robinson drunk dumb pub talk. But I get it here in droves. A culture of a club starts from its' supporter-base, and no second prizes why our culture has been deplorable. Paul Roos has the highest integrity in AFL football. For a coach-killing club to attract a man of his callibre, we had to pay $$$. If you are interested in value for money, then spend your time worrying about Diamond Jim, Neeld and Co. This absolute rubbish about how his heart is not in it; how he has come for money ala Blight. Whether the MFC succeed or fail under Paul Roos, will in a large way, determine his legacy as a coach. He was willing the drink from the poisoned chalice. He had/has plenty of skin in the game. The only unforeseen emergence has been the sudden late demise of ultra defensive game-plans. In 2012, Roos and Malthouse could proudly boast that defence wins premierships and their ultra defensive mindset has stood up for ever. In 2012/13, Roos and Malthouse could have demanded 5 year deals if they wanted to; especially Roos. In 2014 and 2015, the game has suddenly changed. Teams now need to be able to pull the trigger offensively, and have an ultra-offensive lever. Suddenly, Malthouse is on the scrap-heap; and according to MFC and the media, Roos should folllow soon. Look at ball ups now. Umpires have been told to sprint in and throw it up so stoppage structures can't even have time to eventuate. Slow teams (Syd 2005) can no longer congest and suffocate quick (Eagles 2005) teams. It is getting harder with mega rotations, and a nervous AFL that want the game to look pretty. But all this takes deep thought; and Matthew Lloyd may be right. I think Roos is young enough to adapt, but he has got to lose his stubbornness and his 100% belief in his mindset; if I can assume that this is what he has. To claim that Roos is in it for the money, where he could have EASILY ASKED FOR A 6 YEAR DEAL at 1.5 m plus incentives, makes your ascertain (which is not unique to you) absolutely and utterly brainless and offensive.

I miss Kent, there's your pace and swagger right there. We also miss Frost and will be better for the continued development of Vanders and Stretch. I can't wait to see what Petracca has to offer as his break-away pace looks good, plus the swagger. If we can have a good run with injuries we might improve out of sight next year, thought the same img at the beginning of this year though so won't be holding my breath lol

Honestly Lloyd was a very good player but as a commentator he is way down the pack. If he told me it was night time I would go outside and check.

Here is an article on Roos' 360 comments last night: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-08-24/email-criticism-riles-roos?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=RSS+feed%3A+AFL+Latest+Newswhere he says it is offensive to be asked about his commitment to the club and hurt over the team's performances. To be honest, reading that article and seeing our anguished coach on 360 having to defend himself against anonymous keyboard warriors, made me embarrassed to be a Melbourne supporter. Roos has every right to be offended. His responses on 360 showed a lot more dignity and respect than those who bombard him with emails. Most coaches' media grilling ends with the post game press conf. But Roos subjects himself to a second grilling on 360 each week. He could ask the panel to play down our games. He doesn't. He takes the flak as he would take a pack tackle in his playing days: Standing up, never flinch then roll with the punches. I admire his grit. It is up to the players to show similar grit and start doing their job, consistently!

I will apologise first if this has been identified previously but.......... St.Kilda has won one of their past 7 matches Carlton has won one of its past 8 Essendon one in its past 12! Can anyone spot the common factor?

I'm not trumpeting our current form or saying the season is a resounding success, but we are entitled to reflect on our wins this year as improvements on previous years and previous wins. Beating one good side might be a fluke. Beating three (Richmond, Dogs, Geelong in Geelong) is a testament to the fact that, when the players can be bothered trying, we are a better side than we have been since 2006. We made the Dogs, coming off a strong performance against the at-the-time flawless Dockers, look pathetic. We made Richmond look soft by attacking the ball and hunting them down (watch the game again. It's much more fun than watching anything we've done since the bye, for starters). We beat Geelong by playing four quarters of team-oriented football. If anything, those performance makes the bad losses worse. Under Neeld we weren't capable of anything, so what was the difference really. This year, we are capable of more, a lot more, which reinforces what the true problem is - effort.

Lol. We're kidding right? We think that the FD are playing Howe so that we'll have access to his spawn? I have a headache.

El Capitano gets his Golden Ticket this week. 200 games of giving his absolute week in week out. Congrats Chunk.

This is the first time I have uttered a word in criticism of Roos but I think it is a bit rich to turn on the supporter base in the light of the performance against Carlton. He stands alone in not condemning the attitude and application of the players. All commentators were rightly disparaging of our efforts. Unfortunately I don't like the way this is shaping up. The supporters who still remain deserve better than what was on offer on Sunday and I can't see what is to be gained by alienating the heart and soul of the club.

Amen He might be correct, but for gods sake why bring more negative attention to the club?! You Paul are exactly the type of negative supporter Roos doesn't want to hear from anymore. Just shut it. You had your turn, you didn't succeed. Move on.

The sky is falling It now feels like the MFC again .... 18 months of stability would have to have been be a club record though, was a good effort !

What PG says is spot on 100% And i am certain Jackson & Roos would agree too...We have been shite since the bye Just like last year mirrored....

We're finally taking a stand....about bloody time. No more overpaying hacks. What a concept. No more Dawes deals.

It's quite simple... Win games of footy and the 'veil of negativity' ceases to exist. In actual fact I believe questioning the supporters positivity is offensive. Despite all the pain the team has dragged us through we are consistently the loudest and most passionate fans on match day. We aren't the ones on the field running around like pansys picking and choosing when they can be bothered showing pride in the jumper.

Thank god you've pointed out that it's the supporters' fault that we're so [censored] because we love this club and give them money each year. Here I was thinking that the players and coaches might have something to do with it. Do you think we should all walk away and let the club fend for itself? Clearly Roos would prefer that the supporters don't care enough that they bother him with emails each week. Maybe everyone would be better off if the club had no supporters and they didn't have to worry about keeping anyone happy. Then the supporters could get on with their lives and the players and coaches can get paid a fortune to do sweet FA and live in peace.

What's wrong with Whisky? Whisky never hurt anybody. Leave Whisky out of this.

Hell No! it ain't us that runs out each week. And can you tell me what is wrong with Point 6 please?

"Coach has full support of the board"

There is a reason why we haven't promoted any of the following: Jordie McKenzie, Aiden Riley, Mark Jamar, Jack Fitzpatrick, Mitch White. Jordie Mckenzie: at this stage of his career he is a tagger, doesn't seem to make good decisions and doesn't use the ball well. At the moment, Jack Viney is taking his poisiton in the team and it should stay that way. Aiden Riley: we've watched him play a few AFL matches this season. At this stage I don't think he has shown enough to warrant his selection. Viv Mitchie is a better player and has been knocking the door down. Mark Jamar: who does he replace in the team. Apart from Carlton's game, Max Gawn has been in very good form. Jamar can't play at full forward, so who's position does he take. Jack Fitzpatrick: has strung together only a few good games, without being outstanding. Played one good AFL game and then player an absolute shocker. Who's position does he take down back? Mitch White: still a rookie, he is showing signs so hopefully he can further develop. Still has only played a number of senior VFL games this season, so is it too early to promote him? These players are the ones pushing for spots in our senior team. This is our biggest problem... where is the competition for spots? Even though players play well in the VFL for casey they aren't pushing that form to senior level or they just aren't good enough. Only players that add depth and even then aren't quality players are Rohan Bail and Matt Jones.

I might go. May be the only opportunity to see melbourne play in september for quite some time.

He is hurting like all of us. I am now sick to death of putting all our blame on the coach. Happened too much during the Bailey years. The finger pointing needs to go on the lazy players who are already booking their holidays. Sick of half ass efforts from Garland Grimes Howe Watts from time to time. He wants to see this club rise and thats why he wants to stay on because he is PASSIONATE to see this once proud club up and going again. The players should be ashamed of themselves for putting in [censored] weak efforts and tarnishing his reputation as a great AFL coach.

All very well to quote the Iron general but he also believed in re-incarnation and was possibly more than slightly insane.

Most people would suffer mentally (potentially frustrated, depressed, irritable, down and out etc etc) if you went to work and in the space of 7 years you had 6 or so different bosses, the big boss die, a few company legends and leaders die, co-workers go nuts and leave, co-workers get depressed and leave, get pilloried by the customers and media constantly, and all in the name of very little success. The club is responsible for the well being of the players, or has the EFC debacle taught us all nothing? If the best thing for Garland is to no longer be at the club then that is a decision for him to come to with the club. It would not be right to turf him out.

It seems there are some members who don't proof read their own topic titles as well!

Good OP. I was going to start my own thread along similar lines, titled simply "Defeatism" but haven't found the time. Not much need now. As a supporter base, we need to harden the f**k up and stop using every loss as an excuse to wallow in our own ineptitude. Stay the course, recognise what's happening, be critical where it is warranted, and have a bit of c**t about you instead of folding like a deck of cards every 2nd week.

I agree with parts of this but the most important being that the degree of negativity around this club is increased (especially during weeks like this) by the supporters and the media. Can I ask what it does for those negative supporters ridicule your club so severely? I was at the game on Saturday and I understand in the moment the high amount of abuse players like Jones was getting was in the heat of the moment. I don't like it but I understand. It is incredibly frustrating to see a team get beaten like that after all this time. However to continue to put your club down week in and week out on forums like this and emails to our Coach I have to ask purely out of interest. Does it help you blow off steam? Does it make it easier? Do you feel better for it? Also for those who have no faith in the club and constantly put everyone involved down. Have you thought about joining another club? One that doesn't mean you have to abuse people?

Keep in mind we're in Demonland's off season. We'll be on fire during the trade and drafting season as normal. While part of me agrees with you another part is thinking about how this shows supporters' passion for a club which is notorious for having passionless supporters.

Don't think there will be a shortage Gorgoroth.

I can't believe you haven't told us what Lloyd said.

What Caro doesn't see is what the 'veil of negativity' (with varying degrees of 'infection'), looks like in the playing group, : 14 current players from the 186 era and Neeld's tenure: Mark Jamar, Lynden Dunn, Colin Garland, Nathan Jones, Rohan Bail,Jake Spencer, Jack Grimes, Jeremy Howe, Jordie McKenzie, Jack Trengove, Jack Watts, Max Gawn, Jack Fitzpatrick,Tom McDonald Plus 8 current players for Neelds tenure: Jimmy Toumpas, Jesse Hogan, Cameron Pedersen, Matt Jones, Chris Dawes, Dean Terlich, Jack Viney, Dean Kent That is 22 current players who learnt: - they didn't need to fight for their spots, - to play as individuals rather than do team things. - it was ok to not follow coaching instructions, - to pick and choose when to perform - it is easier to give platitudes and 'feel disappointed' about losing than work your guts out to win. I could keep going about the bad behaviours but you get the drift. 'Reprogramming' those bad behaviours must be like turning the Titanic. TBH, I don't think there is a coach, CEO etc that can do it. Roos has gone the 'reprogramming' route, It has not worked. Now cutting out the cancerous 'veil of negativity' is the only way to go. Of the 22 players above I could only count 7 that have shown they can really change. We won't cull the other 15 but the worst offenders must go regardless of their position, seniority, salary or whatever. They can not stay at the club if their bad behaviours/mindset have continued under Roos et al. Otherwise the risk of contagion to our young brigade is too high. Roos is an astute judge of players he will make the right calls.

Michael Reynolds?

How many coaches can we blame?

Lyon is a fan, he's just like the rest of us but with a bigger audience. He had way too much say in the downfall of Bailey and I won't forget how he backed the wrong people in and is in a big part responsible for where we are now. I'm not interested in his opinions of the MFC. There are some posters here I rate much more than him.

Feel gutted for him. Ratts is a great bloke, met him a couple of times and he was always so genuine. Our footy heartache is so insignificant when compared what he must be feeling. Our pain may last for a year or 2, his will last for the rest of his life.

Just wanted to bump this for some much needed perspective Heart breaking stuff watching Ratten speak at his sons funeral. What a tragedy when a parent has to bury their child.

Makes you sick doesn't it. Well done Melbourne, so kind of you to let crap teams get free wins.

The problem is that Roos hasn't done what he said he would do. He said when he arrived that he would promote players who were knocking down the door at Casey and that under-performing players would be demoted. When has that actually happened? Max Gawn is the only player who has been promoted on the back of good form at Casey. Who has been dropped? Jack Watts, and he did it himself! Roos has been playing a conservative game of selecting the safe side regardless of form or the effort they are giving and ignoring the fringe players trying their guts out at Casey. Of course we're getting an insipid effort on game day when the players see that consistent form and effort aren't rewarded while slack selfish play isn't being punished. You want to see a real fighting effort from the side in the next two weeks? Promote the four or five players from Casey who have been consistently in the best, regardless of who they are or what people think of them, and drop the same number of players from the senior side who have been slacking off. I don't care if that means bring in in Jordie McKenzie and Dean Terlich for the last two games or dropping someone from the leadership group to make way for them. It has to be done. You can't do any more harm to the club's image than you've already done this year. For mine, I say bring in Jordie McKenzie, Aiden RIley, Mark Jamar, Jack Fitzpatrick and Mitch White, all of whom have had good runs of form and should have been called up well before this had Roos been true to his word. Drop Lamumba, Dawes, Howe, Brayshaw (he's cooked and should have been rested weeks ago) and whoever else isn't performing. The point is that it would be rewarding the players who have done the right thing and worked hard at Casey, it would be punishing the players who aren't putting in for hte seniors, and it would tell the entire list that they aren't safe and they'd damn well better put in if they want to keep playing.

One of the best bits of that 360 segment was when he discussed the email from the supporter who said 'driving in today, I knew we were going to lose', which caused him to reflect on how many of the players would have had the same mindset. People talk about how almost every single player who was here under Bailey is gone, so how could the tanking era still be affecting us? The problem is, this club hasn't prioritised winning since 2006. It's always been about development, or about building to the future, or worse, actually about losing. Consequently, I'm confident that when you come to the club, you second-guess yourself. What are these other players thinking? There's no winning culture here, they don't win a lot, where's the belief? And it seeps through. It doesn't help that we have no respect from the public. It doesn't help that the supporter base is, by and large, pessimistic. It all feeds into the same thinking - we probably are going to lose this game. We're down to a handful of Bailey-era players. Funnily enough, they're the biggest offenders - Garland, Howe, Watts, Grimes, probably Jones too. They're the wrong players to lead the club, and the mentality just trickles down.

A champion of this club who has suffered more than most. His competitiveness and loyalty is amazing and I wish that the next 100 games of his career are a hell of a lot more successful than the last 200 have been. Absolutely deserves success, and his teammates putting in a good effort this week.

We didn't lose because were are slow, we lost because we didn't compete. We didn't beat Collingwood, Richmond, Footscray and Geelong because we are fast, we won because we harassed, contested, ran and had decent ball movement. Most of it is mindset.

You do realise West Coast is one of the most inaccurate sides in the league, right? The fact we've beaten Richmond, the Dogs, Geelong in Geelong, and Collingwood (worst record of any of those sides is 9-11), but lost to St Kilda (twice), Essendon and Carlton tells me the opposite. The talent is there. The killer instinct, the drive, the endeavour, the vigour, the winning culture, are not there.

I received a thoughtful response from PJ. I won't post it, but it acknowledged what we rusted on supporters have had to put up with and confirmed that there's more work to be done, that will be done. Off field, the Club is clearly in good shape. I don't think I would want to be an underperforming player at Melbourne in a fortnight's time.

I'll be there because I'm an idiot.