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Ok this is not a thread to say we should have picked Beveridge over Roos but in light of the extraordinary tactics of the Bulldogs I think there are fair questions to ask of our coaching staff. For those that didn't see it the Bulldogs nearly pulled off an incredible victory over Freo by conceding the ruck dual. Freo won the hitouts 69 to 13. They used Goodes and others as a ruck and loaded their fwd line with talls and effectively played a loose man in defence. It was very unconventional thinking. And it nearly won them the game as they were level with a few minutes to go. Which brings me to Roos and the Melbourne coaching staff. Melbourne were never going to be able to play the way they wanted to against a team like Hawthorn. They are tough, well drilled and play a team zone game (‘Our back six are there to protect the goals’). We were well below our best 22 and coming off two bruising encounters with the Swans and Freo. We have been smashed by Hawthorn on the previous 11 occasions. Mitchell, Roughead and Hale in particular kill us (as do Lewis and Hodge when they rare playing). So what did we do that was different. How did we go about playing against a team that performs like this? What did we do to plan for what was predictable at the outset. Did we plan to smash Mitchell? Did we plan to double team Roughhead? Did we do any planning at all? Nup. What we got was same old same old. I could have written the script a month ago and been bang on. We must be the easiest team in the league to play against – even Carlton and GC are as inept as us. Not only do we do the same stuff week in week out but we have no leaders other than Jones and TMac who can stand up and win their position against their opponent. We don’t do the basics right - like have a tall on the back line to kill a ball that comes in for goal – or man up when the opposition has the ball, or hit targets from 20m away, or run and spread when we have the ball. How about we even stick a few tackles? FFs we are second to the ball often enough. Tackling is all about intent and desire. Yes there is technique but it’s largely the first two. Brayshaw has it in spades and he is a six gamer. Words can’t describe how disillusioned I am with this football club. They are spineless and heartless. My kids have given up (‘why would you want to follow that bunch of losers Dad’) and I don’t blame them. I would too if I could. But I don’t have to watch the crap they dish up every week and I won’t be for some time. They can come back to me when they have won two or heaven forbid three in a row and have some semblance of personal pride and our club isn’t the laughing stock of the competition. What would Luke Hodge do with Jack Watts? What would Joel Selwood do with Jeremy Howe? Why do our players think it is acceptable to play 5m away from their man when we don’t have the ball? Why can’t they ‘zone’ like every other team zones. There are so many questions because we are so inept. Basic questions that go to the heart of simple football. Keep the ball from the opposition and give it to one of your own players. Where is the simple pride in performance? Where is the desire to beat your opponent? Where is the desire to take frustrations out by driving your opponents head into the turf when you tackle him? So what re the coaching staff doing? Telling their players to 'forget it' and 'we won't learn anything from reviewing that'. Really?? Why is it that Luke Beveridge and even Alan Richardson can get their teams playing exciting inspiring football? Who picked that at teh start of the season?? Why can’t Melbourneplay like that? Is it because we as supporters don’t demand it? Is it because the administration of the club doesn’t demand it? Is it because of the lack of on-field leadership at the club? Is it because the coaches are stuck in a time warp. The coaching staff need a serious rocket up their collective backsides. They need to challenge each every play to do one task. Beat their man. They are being shown up by two rookie coaches. Big time. I don’t what the answers are but I know what I see every week. I can’t take this team stuffing up my weekends any more. I have better things to do in life. Things that are actually enjoyable.

Just in response to the comparison between neeld and Roos In neelds year and a half in charge we won 6 games 5 against expansion sides who were easy beats Lost more than 10 games of 30 odd by 80 points or more Since Roos took over we have won 6 games, with only 2 80 point or more losses, beaten Richmond twice, the crows over there, the Suns, bombers and Carlton as well as seriously pushed the undefeated crows this year, port twice last year, the doggies twice last year and others So the improvement is there, and the comparison is ridiculous and a knee jerk response to a disappointing loss

The night started slowly but with a room full of supporters determined for the club to do well you cant help feel more optimistic. I spoke to a senior person in the Football department who said it was good for the players to be there seeing that they have supporters behind them rather than being home on the couch stewing over the loss and reading social media. He said that players get no chance these days to be out of the spotlight unlike when he played and they read the social media about their performances (like this forum) which is a major player management issue. He was glad they were away from that for an evening in a friendly and positive enviroment. I think you will find the real deal with Watts is they want to give him a chance to play a bit of footy out of the spotlight. I didn't go near Roos who in his unguarded moments looked filthy. Nathan Jones was clearly very upset by the loss (he is carrying a small niggle from gardening earlier in the year which flares up from time to time). Every player I spoke to was hoping Roos meant it when he said there would be no review, they all knew the performance stank and was unacceptable. Nev is unlikely to play next week but will be back the week after.

Because Malthouse was brought in to bring them a flag and instead he has turned them into horse sh it.Roos was brought in to improve our whole playing list and culture which he has done so far. Too many times we have pointed the finger at the coach and not enough at the players. When are players going to stand up and take responsibility? And for the love of god do NOT ever put Mark Neeld and Paul Roos in the same bracket. The only positive thing Mark Neeld ever did to this club was get us Paul Roos! The guy nearly killed off this club just like Malthouse is doing at Carlton.

Was this antiRoos sentiment going around following the Gold Coast or Richmond wins? Or has it only sprung up after we play the three best teams in the league?

I simply cannot believe that some people here are bagging Roos. I still can't believe that we were fortunate enough to land him as our senior coach. He is the sole reason we've actually been able to attract the decent senior players and coaches in the time he's been here.

He's 27 years old, and since he was a teenager he's been told better times, indeed, 'glorious' times, were just around the corner. He's borne the brunt of the club's failures for year after year, often being the defender who has to cover a mismatched opponent because we didn't have the right players available, and facing down who knows how many 100pt losses that could hardly be his fault but which he was always 'on camera' for. His only direct colleague in his role throughout that time has left, to go to the very same opponent that was smashing him that day. His other mates through that time are either sinking to the end of their careers in the VFL or have gone to other clubs. His closest mentors throughout his career are dead. He was one of our best on the day, one of the few who actually didn't drop his head. I'm fine with him being visibly upset at making a clanger (or even moreso, having a clanger kind of imposed upon him by circumstance). Honestly, I think I'd be even happier to see Garland celebrating a win in a final than I would be for Nathan Jones.

Roos is doing what McCartney did for the dogs, teaching them about defence and contested ball, beveridge took over a really well built foundation, Roos took over a train wreck i also think a lot of our ball movement issues are to do with blokes up the field not running hard enough to create options, and our ruckman and talls besides Jesse not being good enough to take a contested grab around the ground Goodwin will bring a more attacking flair to our game, he already has but he'll take over a team that knows how to defend, how to play finals footy and has some serious development into our young guys

As I posted in another thread, we are 2 wins 15 losses with a percentage of 62 since the middle of last year. That is as bad as anything Neeld presided over, and probably worse given the greater talent at Roos' disposal. Roos is great at making everyone feel warm and fuzzy and telling them what they want to hear. I am yet to see any evidence that he has the first idea regarding match day coaching, a decent game plan and countering opposition strategies. I keep hearing that Ross Lyon was the brains behind Sydney's success, and I suspect we were sold a million dollar a year lemon.

At Club functions where the players are required to attend, there is often an embarrassing period at the start where the players are chatting together, and the guests are reticent to join in their conversation. The players were fairly subdued, talking together in groups, probably relishing the rare opportunity to have a club-approved stubble. Obviously they were far from jubilant, but they weren't moping around looking like there'd been a death in the family. I was talking to a few friends when "H" came over and introduced himself. He told us how happy he is at Melbourne , ( though he wished we were going better!), and how impressed he was with the atmosphere, and back up facilities at our Club. He said how he fervently hoped to be able to one day share with his new young team mates success like he enjoyed at Collingwood.He was in the leadership group for 6 years at Coll., and really loves that part of his duties at Melbourne. He told us in a sincere and respectful way how much he appreciated the support of the Melbourne fans, despite recent lack of success.I took it to mean all Demon fans, but I guess he was particularly referring to this group, at such a major fundraiser. Everything he said suggested to me that here was a fine "leader of men". There is a real aura about him. I guess he was just following orders and mixing in with the fans, but he did it brilliantly.

I was there as well. Lumumba spoke with great passion about the club. He clearly loves the club and wants to do well for the players who have been through the hard times. He made a point of singling out a few players including Garland. Lumumba wears his heart on his sleeve which is not everyones cup of tea but he clearly cares about his team mates. I was very impressed.

I met "H" at the FH Dinner last night. This is is a big statement, but I think he was the most impressive man I've ever met.

Well done Curry Dunn: went from barely able to establish a spot in the best 22 to vice captain Jetta: went from Delisted to imo in our most important 10 players N.Jones: finished last year averaging 28 disposals a game and stiff not to be All Australian Tyson: went from in and out of the team at the Giants to averaging 24 touches and a goal a game inc 14 brownlow votes Pederson: went from a spud who didn't look AFL standard to a guy who can come in and play a role for the team.

well actually since he took over he has increased our win ratio by 50% increased our % by 30% taken us from the worst defensive team in the comp to top 8 and seen several individuals take their game to new levels despite current form, based on the body of work over the past 18 months Dunn, Jetta, Mcdonald, N.jones, Tyson, Viney, Pederson, Kent have all improved significantly as players and the young talent bought in since are progressing well we have also lost just one game by 100 points or more in the past 18 months, and only 2 by 80 or more, compared to more than ten of those losses in the previous 18 months but hey, who wants to let the truth get in the way of a good story?

There are two simple things we haven't done for 10 years. 1. Shepherd 2. Run without the ball Staggers me that this hasn't been rectified by any of the coaches we've had in that time. Our other problem has been lack of spirit, but a few shepherds and a bit of a run on and that will grow. It's not complicated. Shepherd for your teammates, and keep moving when you don't have the ball.

As normal members of this site letting emotion get the better of them. Logic not emotion is required. Don't underestimate how far back we have come from. It was always going to take some time. We have improved out of sight in the last year and 7 rounds. However, we still have no depth and once we start having to pick players further down our list we are still terrible. With continued good recruiting and the maturing of our list our depth and best 22 will continue to improve and improve dramatically. I can remember far worse losses that Saturday, some of them in years we even made the finals, one of them in a year we made a GF. It will be a bumpy road, but at least we are on the road. Mishaps like Saturday have to be expected along the way.

I saw it and he was definitely not adversely reacting to Garland's position... he saw that Garland was distressed over what had happened (I think he had gifted them a goal) and he was encouraging Garland to put it behind him and get on with the game (in a very positive and caring way). Great leadership and something that I would think Garland appreciated.

Thought I may as well bump this I spend way too much time on Demonland but this thread and the prospect of very nasty things happening to the Essendon Football Club is the only one offering any joy at the moment.

Excuses excuses... They're playing against similar aged players in the same level of competition, why should there be sympathy?

While I definitely wish it was going faster, I don't think Roos should be judged 7 games into his 2nd year here. We knew he had more to do than just recruit a couple of blokes. It isn't like we had the castle and were looking for a coaching master mind. Roos' job is to change the culture. And he is doing that. Slowly. It will take time. Expect big changes again at the end of the year so that hopefully we have a) 30 afl standard players to pick from and b) hardly any players left scarred from the last 7 years. Honestly i don't expect us to compete well regularly until 2017 (When i think Roos will have created a new list). Until then we will be inconsistent. Changing the culture will take 3 years. After that it is about performance.

Just a reminder of what was written about Toumpas at the time of the draft - it just goes on and on. It shows me one thing and one thing only - Where you are drafted is purely a snapshot of your worth as a junior and doesn't reflect how you will make the transition to AFL senior ranks. This nonsense about his attitude - because you make someone with poor attitude and work ethic the captain of your state..... Has he produced what we would have liked ? absolutely not - but this nonsense about "why did we draft him " is revisionism at its best. Hard-working wingman will be reliable funnel forward for the Dees. Kicks goals and oozes leadership. Surprise he dropped out of the top three. Jimmy Toumpas didn’t get to take part in the Draft Combine after having surgery on his hip at the conclusion of the National Champions; however, that hasn’t hurt his draft prospects. Capping off a standout season, Toumpas took home All-Australian honours after captaining South Australia in the National Championships and was noted for his high ball-winning abilities and tremendous work ethic. Jimmy Toumpas is also an AFL-AIS 2012 graduate. A well-rounded midfielder will complement the growing wealth in the centre for the Giants. Toumpas will join the likes of Whitfield, Coniglio, Greene, Smith, Hoskin-Elliott and Tyson as first-round draft picks in the midfield, which will make GWS a very scary proposition for other teams in a few years time, if not now. Toumpas is deceptively quick, which may surprise a few teams next season. He uses the ball by hand and foot excellent, can play inside and outside, while his poise and endurance are superb. Toumpas is a little bit like Jimmy Bartel, in that he is excellent in the clinches, lifts for big games and can play through injury, as highlighted by his performances throughout the U/18 Championships, when he had a dodgy hip. But unlike Bartel, Toumpas possesses great speed, which makes him a great pick for Greater Western Sydney, rounding out their midfield.

I stopped posting to Demonland a year ago after being repeatedly ridiculed for saying Dawes wasn't up to it. Only Dazzledavey was there supporting the idea. Couldn't believe our luck when both Hogan and Watts missed this week and it would finally become clear as day why even Pedo would be superior in that role. I personally think Dawes is probably one of the nicest guys at the club and would be a great influence around the playing group. That makes him a coaches dream and unfortunately Roos has continued to play him overlooking poor performance. But if you want to score over 50 pointz a game we need everyone in the Fwd line to be fluent in their skills. Dawes can't mark. Time to give Watts a trial by fire at CHF. Watts is a facilitator who can kick goals himself and assist. Time for him to become a man and own the role. He was close to BOG v GC in Round one. Watts cannot shine with Dawes demanding the ball and wasting it. It's time Jack. (Or Pedo, just not Dawes!)

*lol* I'm not going to delete your post, I'm quite happy for you to make yourself look like a goose. The email address you used to register with clearly belongs to a Hawthorn supporter. Unless you used someone else's email address, which is majorly suspicious in itself. There's nothing wrong with coming here as an opposition supporter, we've had a few over the years, but trying to look like a local isn't on. I didn't say you were lying, by the way, I just said you were big noting. I have no idea whether you know anything or not. You might - or at least, sincerely think you do. But since you're clearly not going to tell us what it is you know, I see no motivation for your coming here with your claims that you know the truth other than to make yourself look good. I've seen it all before, more times than I'd care to count.

The big difference I think is that they were playing prelim finals, they were a top 4 team up and to 2010. They still have players from those teams playing and leading the way. The Saints are in a similar position to the Doggies but played off in GF's and then bowed out of finals in 2011. Both of these teams had enough senior players of quality on their lists to trade out and do deals to bring in more kids whilst still having good leaders in place to educate and show the way. Our lack of leadership in all parts of the club up until PJ took over and on ground still has meant a fair degree of our recruiting focus has had to be on bringing in older players who could show some leadership. Some of these like Cross, 'H' and Bernie have been good for us...others have been pretty much disasters. It is yet to be seen whether the approaches taken by the Saints and Dogs will work longer term but at present they seem ahead of us after a much shorter rebuild. Our club has been through a disastrous period of mismanagement and to expect Roos to turn it around in quick time is asking a lot. I guess we all expected to see better effort and results. I think all this shows is how far back we really were.

Drugs for sure! Nothing is more shameful than cheating!

Exactly We have 3 chances to show some spirit and some fight against the 3 best teams in the comp and we failed miserably on all 3 occasions The club has no fabric

It's not the results that have us restless, it's the lack of spirit and footy basics. Two things we thought would be fixed by now under Roos.

Seems ironic that Jones goes in hard every single week and rarely if ever gets injured, yet it's gardening that takes him down.

All the same crap people were saying about Brenton Sanderson. Let's just see if it lasts.

When we lose like we did on Saturday, I often seek solace in my music - along with a few beers - to soothe my jaded nerves. On Saturday night I went through my extensive collection of old vinyl LP's. The first one to jump out at me was 'Days of Future Past" by the Moody Blues. It was almost as if that album sensed my despair - short lived I might add. Despite our constant debates on here in the past, regarding previous coaches, what has become clear to me is that our 're-build' still remains very much a work in progress. Of greater concern to me is that we appear to still carry the scars of the previous 'regime'. No matter how bad losses have been in the past, I have tried to stay until the final siren. On Saturday, I just couldn't bear it and walked out of the 'G with my head down and shoulders hunched over, at about the 5 minute mark of the last quarter. I am embarrassed to admit that. I very much want to believe in a positive future, but am finding it increasingly difficult to do so. To me, it is almost like the players thought these past 3 weeks were always going to be a write off, but after that, we would be OK. I am not sure of that at all and just wonder if the damage done over the past 3 weeks, is a replica of what occurred in dark days under Neeld. Since listening to the Album again, the lyrics of "The Afternoon: Forever Afternoon/Time to Get Away" keeps going through my head. I don't want to sound defeatist, but I haven't felt so low, as I did at 5:00 pm on Saturday, in a long time. Yes, I know, we played a very professional and talented football side, but any loss of that magnitude still bothers me. Bullies at the 'G on Sunday? All I ask is for a performance befitting any AFL footy team.

So it isn't rocket science ? The same team that took Luke Parker took Jed Lamb with their first pick. They also took Lewis Johnston The same team that took Ollie Wines took Butcher with their first pick ( touted as a number one draft pick) The same team that took Dustin Martin took Tyrone Vickery with their first pick The same team that took Steele Sidebottom traded for Cameron wood for a 1st round draft pick The same team that Brayshaw..well do i need to go on Rocket Science huh ? you want a player that makes an immediate impact - good luck with that - each year there are around 80 players drafted - of that you can count immediate impact players on a regular basis on probably two hands - around 1 in 10 chance.... As to the attributes you want of a football -fairly obvious. And again on you revisionism - Toumpas did check the boxes THEN. The same as most of the highly touted youngsters tick the box in the TAC. That he has not produced it at AFL level is not restricted to Toumpas. If you take the top 20 from Toumpas's year - 7 have failed to impress - you can include the 2 picks taken before ours. So yes...it is actually rocket science with some tattslotto thrown in for good measure

Come on man, let it go. This is getting seriously old.

FMD just shut up and go away already. My guess is this forum imitates real life, people seem to take a dislike to you.

Did they ask Roos why the hell he gave contract extensions to Terlich and Spencer?

"I know something you don't know, but I can't tell you what it is. State secret. Sorry." Big noter. There have been dozens like you on here before. Go away. Love your facebook profile pic of Hodgey and Mitchell holding the cup, by the way.

Probably just a very visible example of why Roos wanted Lamumba at the club. Have only heard very positive comments about his leadership and encouragement from the players this year.

Josh Kelly - played some ok football - too early to call Jonothan O'Rourke - traded already ....... Coniglio - good footballer but 2013/4 not in the top 10 B&F Harley Bennell - I love his best but he has a way too go to be a top footballer because he doesnt do it often enough Jack Trengove NicNat - played a couple of good seasons - still underwhelming for mine Cotchin - really good footballer Scott gumbleton - hmmm - injuries cruelled him Dale Thomas - flashy - then a couple of great seasons for the Pies struggled with form and injuries since Not so simple for mine.....

Absolute rubbish

The Hawks troll getting his arse handed to him by Nash has added a nice little ray of sunshine to this thread.

So sendoff2014 lets ignore the fact that joining a fan forum and immediately posting something contentious is classic troll behavior (and extremely lazy troll behavior i might add - i mean please if i was going to troll a football fan site i'd go deep undercover hard core Donnie Brascoe style - 2-3 years obsessive posting about all things , lets say Hawks, revel in the minutiae, before dropping my 'bombshell' - but hey that's me, the younger generation just want immediate gratification. And. Just. Can't . Wait). And Lets ignore the reality DL has had its fair share of such dimwitted trolls Instead lets take you on face value that you are a genuine demon fan and what you say about the reasons Watts being dropped and him not playing for the dees again are true (or to be kind you believe them to be true because someone has given you the good oil and you couldn't wait to join DL to share the news). Why do you think Roos would say he asked to be dropped as opposed to just saying he was dropped because he was in wretched form? If indeed his plan was to never pick him again what do you think his motivation was to say Watts asked to be dropped? I mean it doesn't make any sense. You'd just drop him and never pick him again. And if you had read DL for any length of time a big chunk of dees fans would say good riddance and see as it further proof of Roosy's genius. But if you did want to trade him you probably would't want him running around in the VFL. Hard to impress potential suitors running around out the back of Cranbourne i would have thought, but there you go. Oh and by the by out of curiosity who is your favorite MFC half back flanker from the 80's or 90's?

Bulldust. Watts is not a FIGJAM character. This is not the prime of his career by any measure that you'd want to make. obvious troll is obvious

Trade out Stefan Martin, Keeps Jake Spencer.. Only at Melbourne.

I thought it was one of the few positives from the day. It was an absolute howler from Garland but Lumumba and Dunn were both quick to offer their support. Good to see.

Maybe Garland is going thru a tough time on an off-field matter...remember he had a pretty strong emotional reaction to the win against Richmond. Good to see his team mates rally around him. H doesn't seem the type to give a teammate a serve at that stage of the game. We shouldn't be too quick to judge. If Garland is going thru a tough time, I applaud him for playing the way he does. He was one of our better players yesterday. Cut him some slack, folks.

The ball is like a hot potato when Jimmy gets it (and he doesn't get it a lot). No poise at all. We drafted him for his 'elite' skills as junior. He is unable to execute these skills under AFL pressure. He can do it in the VFL, but the AFL is way too much for him. I'll be amazed if this changes. He's not the first kid drafted early that has struggled with it. Morton, Addam Maric and Strauss were exactly the same. Elite skills that went to water in the AFL. Terry Wallace did an analysis on first round picks over the past decade, I seem to remember 'inside' grunt players had a much higher success rate in terms of making it in the AFL than 'outside' players. I think we've learnt from our mistake. As for Jimmy's future? One thing Mark Neeld did well was forget about previous draft position. He realised Morton and Gysberts weren't up to it and flogged them off for a packet of chips before the fans were ready to let go. Toumpas is out of contract at the end of the year, has he done enough to get an extension? Will he be trade bait? Is it too early to cut our losses? Will be interesting to see what happens. If somebody offers a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him then we should take it.

It'd be interesting to know which players other clubs would've selected at pick 4 in that draft. I suspect Port were fortunate in having pick 7 in some ways, as Wines was an absolute no brainer for them. I was happy enough with Toumpas when we drafted him - although, like everyone here, I felt a strong attachment to Wines, essentially because of the Jack Viney best mates factor. Toumpas came in with what appeared to be top tier credentials and was always touted as a high pick. But he simply hasn't looked remotely like the player I had thought we had drafted. Hugely disappointing. To date at least.

I knew I shouldn't have logged on today. Lets put it into perspective We started the year with a full team and had wins against GC and Rich.....every one was happy...posters were claiming finals we had young guns firing Then the injuries began (which they will every year) .We were dismantled against GWS in the second half and ran with Adelaide for most of the game THEN....We ran into Freo (who have not even looked like losing).....Then Sydney coming off a surprise defeat and lost by 38 pts.....Then Hawthorn who had come off another surprise defeat and are current Premiers. We copped a few injuries and were beaten by very experienced TOP sides who have confidence and have been together for a long time Having read a few posts......Peter Jackson should lift his game or be sacked......At least half the side should be delisted......the rest tarred and feathered and tied to a stake outside the Melbourne town hall.......Roos has no idea and should be sacked. Maybe we can wait for a few weeks and see how we are going at the half way point before winding up the club and all going home. Just a thought

The draft is an ass. You're argument seems to be based on the draft being accurate - and it's not. Never has been in fact. If you and others were to judge players as recruits only, you'd see things differently. Are you fully capable of putting the top end draft pick number aside? ... be careful how you answer that because I've asked numerous people over the years (whether they can put a top end draft's pick number aside) and not one person is able to do it easily. It's even hard for me and I spend a lot of time rubbishing the draft. If you're expecting A grade from a top end draft pick you shouldn't be - the facts, data and results back up that claim ...here's an example of the drafts from 2000 through to 2009 ... Bad Luck or Bad Recruiting I know many like to think that it's impossible to muck up so many top end picks but I see that as an unintelligent way of looking at a poor system. Lift the draft age by 2 years to 20 and we won't see anywhere near as many busts - lower the draft age to 15 or 16 and you'd see a truckload more busts. 17 or 18 years old is just simply too young an age to get the desired results from the draft. Blame the system.

This thread is ridiculous. Give the kid a chance

Didn't see the game today 'mono' but looking at last week I would hope he plays at least another 5 or 6 at Casey and get in the bests for 3 of those before he's considered. I know the regular suspects don't stack up well but we need these kids to develop well before bringing them through.