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Fitzpatrick was terrible last week, but great this week. Toumpas was great last week but terrible this week. Demonland's Official Conclusion: Fitzpatrick is great but Toumpas sucks.

Worst half of football I've ever seen. It's blowing a gale & freezing cold, spilt half a pie down the front of my jumper, I'm going home.

I know some people on here need to have a whipping boy, but the criticism of Trengove is becoming ridiculous. He once again topped the team for tackles, had 20 disposals and is one of the few players on our list I trust with the ball. Believe it or not there are plenty of players in other sides who aren't that quick as well. Pace isn't everything. If it was Luke Ball would never have played. I'm also thrilled with Fitzy. Three early and then played out the game on one leg. Even when he's outpositioned he generally gets the ball to ground as well, and his pace and tackling are a standout for someone that big. Viney is AWESOME. Good to see Byrnes and Davey have better games as well. All in all it's about the result I expected, and I'm pretty happy with some of our boys tonight.

Oh no!!!! A kid in his first year has a bad game!!! Quick, lets all pot him. Flogs

Get off of Trengove's back you bunch of ungrateful keyboard warriors.

That's the current AFL average outcome for a game of footy. Here are our last 5 weeks: round-i50-score r17 - 50 - 11.9 r16 - 19 - 4.6 r15 - 36 - 13.7 r14 - 56 - 15.13 r13 - 45 - 10.9 now clearly there is one big howler in there. I think most of us are intelligent enough to know what caused that howler and can accept it is the exception to the rule that the other 4 results provide. the average outcome of the other 4 is: 12.10. 82 with 47 inside 50s again, the AFL average is 14.10.94 with 51 inside 50s so across 4 weeks of footy we average 4 less inside 50s and 2 less goals compared to the average side. I thought we were supposed to have the worst midfield in history.. right? You think next year maybe Hogan and Clark might turn a few more of those entries in to goals? cos I sure as hell do. You think that the 8 players tonight who have played 16 games or less just might have some improvement in them left? Yeah me too. I just wanted to use the stats to paint the picture for all of you out there who are too dumb to have noticed our improvement because the only thing you can see in a football match is who got the 4 points

Nope. It sucked, but he is coming off a stress fracture to his foot that you blokes would quit the game over. He tries very hard, contributed to three or four of our goals and absolutely is a fantastic leader to his team-mates. Am I disappointed that he hasn't turned into Jimmy Bartel like we all though he would? Yes. But he's our captain, and a young kid trying to play good footy. If he's our captain you need to respect him. If you don't think he should be captain, then he's just a young kid and you need to cut him some slack. But because he's both young and a captain, you all seem to think he deserves neither the latitude we give young players, nor the reverence every captain of this footy club should be given.

I wish I could be as gracious as you lot. I see a bloke we spent pick 4 on and, despite his talent, did not give anywhere near his best for the jumper and refused to get hurt. As a result he contributed to many losses and clogged a spot on our list for 5 years. Not his biggest fan that's for sure.

you would swear we lost by 100 reading this if Garland had not got hurt we would have won that and you would all be singing a completely different song never mind we had 50 entries i50 and won the clearances, and that with the second qtr aside we kicked 10 goals to 8 wouldnt have minded mitch clark at the end of those 50 entries either kent, clisby, fitzy, viney, blease all these kids were pretty good davey and byrnes their best games for the year

Can't we just forget about Cale Morton? Why is there a need to start a thread every time he gets a game with the Eagles?

Considering we lost one of our best players and were a rotation down for the last 40 minutes of the game, I thought it was a really gutsy effort, A number of players willed themselves to contests in the last quarter - something they never did under the inept one (I can't type or say his name as it makes me vomit). I want a win as much as anyone, but tonight was not worth the vitriol that I have read on here tonight. Some of you should hang your heads in shame!

Geez I wish I had .000001% of Trengoves ability instead of my excellent key boarding skills. Lets all take a deep breath and let Trengove have a FULL preseason under a coach who CAN COACH.

The Gold Coa$t will smash us into tiny bits up there btw. That one is not 50/50

Haha are you serious? His kicking action is very poor and he uses his speed to get him out of trouble in field kicking and then can either make a safe field kick or a long down the line kick. He's not good but he's above the level of Spencer or Ro Bail. As for his goal kicking he has a bad action again but he also has made some clever changes. He has a routine and kicks in a straight line. That gives him a chance. But he also has a bad 2 handed high ball drop which means if he's having an off day or it's particularly windy he won't be so effective. A bit like Riewoldt in that the ball drop will never be good so he'll have days when it doesn't work although I think at this stage he's got a good rhythm on his set shots which comes from confidence at VFL. His kicking is ugly but it is effective and the promising thing is he's made a heap of ground since he started.

We need to seriously consider offering the job to Neil Craig, even if Roos does turn out to be interested, he has guys like frawley and watts playing some fantastic football, and he has the boys seemingly happy about playing footy again

I know Terlich get a lot of the football, but as Paul Roos has observed, his opponents kick an awful lot of goals.

We conceded about 70 points from turnovers. That is why we lost. In fact, it's why we lose every week.

Jack Viney, how I love thee

Sure. Trengove is 21 years of age and is playing in the biggest f-up of a midfield in living memory. Nevertheless, he is consistently in the top half dozen ballgetters. He has played for 5? coaches in 70 games, each of them probably telling him something completely different. He followed the last one's stupid defensive game plan so well that his freewheeling style has been beaten out of him. That same coach turned up one day and tells him that, of the 30 odd blokes older than him on the list, not a single one of them is capable of leading a club better than him. Then, he practically busted his foot in the last preseason. I think he is carrying a huge burden, doing his best to show his teammates direction, and is playing ok. He'll be fine.

Had 20 and 12 tackles tonight mate. As usual, your radar is sadly off.

WYL, you are so far out of reality it's laughable. Your conceptions of what should or shouldn't happen in this world beggar belief. Trengove should be kicking 2-3 goals per quarter, and if he doesn't, he's not a leader? Insanity. We 'should' have beaten Brisbane? No. Geelong 'should' have beaten Adelaide. We 'could' have beaten Brisbane. Could. Not should. Because we're the second-worst side in the competition. That's just what we are. I haven't seen the whole game, but from what I've seen, it was another sign of improvement. We won the clearances, and were competitive in inside 50s, tackles and contested possessions. We also went a player down in the third, which hurt our rotations, a killer in Darwin. People on here need to accept where we are and the amount of change that is capable of being achieved through a season with a sub-standard list. The pre-season is where we're going to need to see improvement, but we're actually doing quite well to pick ourselves up off the rock bottom we hit with Neeld.

Great thread and a great tour. Well done everyone and well done Froome, a deserved winner. Richie Porte was a rock for Froome. Our next big hope? The highlight for me was definitely Quintana. He was probably fortunate that Valverde was a victim of the crosswinds early in the tour as it meant that he basically had the entire support of team Movistar. But you could see Quintana learning as he went, was in a few breakaways and jumped too early on a few of the hills. Showed a lot of maturity on the last stage to take the win. He's going to be someone to watch for many years to come. I know we're all disappointed with Cadel, but before we right him off let's remember that he came 3rd in the Giro 6 odd weeks ago. I think he's still got some decent performances in him. Viva le Tour

Have to agree. I like WYL's passion, but the way he's carrying on here you'd think Trengove switched jumpers at half time.

Sorry I'm still not understanding why we would want to trade fitz, seeing as he keeps getting better and better which each game So we let another club benefit from this continual improvement? Now I know I'm not a smart man but can someone please explain in a logical fashion? And I know we need midfielders. Should be a few around with pick 1 in the draft, second round pick and free agency.

I wonder how they'd be travelling if they didn't have him. Suns take Ablett, Giants take Scully.

I actually think it was one of his best moments of the season. Hanley is greased lightning and as soon as I saw who was behind him i thought it was time to shut the gate, but the commitment in the chase was first class.

Good call, you are correct.

Judged too softly by who? Because if you think it has been judged too softly by Demonland members, you must be reading a different site. Virtually every player has been shredded on occasion here.

Was over before it started, Sky and Froome worked hard to develop a great squad and a great way to win, the constant cadence just turning over especially up the climbs. The Sky squad with Thomas riding with a cracked hip, Ritchie Porte besides one bad day was epic. Froome was clearly the best rider over the 3 weeks, head and shoulders above the rest, congratulations to a deserved winner. The little Q wow!! He is going to be a super star maybe as early as next year but definitely 2-3 years from now. Would not be surprised if he wins a number of Tour titles on this years performance. Cadel, well what can you say but he looks done. I hope he has one more Tour in him and can show people the great rider he is as this year was not him. BMC clearly a fractured, disjointed team where you can imagine massive changes for next years Tour. Will be interesting to see if Wiggo gets his hunger back after seeing Froome win, and if he stays with Sky as others are sniffing around like OGE. Overall hoping next year is a little tighter, but what a gruelling Tour this year and it was great to watch almost all of it.

I believe the answer lies somewhere between the two. It's not completely due to necessity but it's not a long term plan either. I didn't see him ruck against Bulldogs but maybe he did. He's certainly done it at training and in the last 3 matches. I think the motivation behind it is: 1. Gawn can't ruck much more than 60% and they don't want to overly tire Fitzy either 2. Get Watts involved in the play more where he can use his disposal and run - he set up Fitzy's last goal brilliantly 3. Similar to point 2 it develops Watts' allround nature of his game with time at clearances and defensively 4. Fitzy's ruck skills aren't superb as a back up yet AND 5. I think Fitzy was certainly limited by his knee last night so they protected him so Watts got a longer than planned spell in the ruck I don't see the ruck ever being a consistent part of Watt's game especially if Clark comes back and Fitzy continues to develop but it remains an option with injuries. I do see it as a clever tactic from Craig to try and develop the all round nature of Watts' game. He's still up there with the likes of Toumpas in terms of deficiencies is young Jacky Watts. But his offensive side is starting to get to a more consistent level. It's much easier to iron out his flaws such as how to defend body on body when you are out of a marking contest, how to bring the ball to ground, how to tackle or win a contested ball when you are in the heat of the contest compared to playing forward pocket.

I saw enough of Toumpas last year to know he can seriously play. My concern is his mental fragility. If he currently does't get a touch in the first 10 minutes he seems to mount pressure on himself and then just run around without purpose. Even his interview post Geelong game showed he was greatful to be out there rather than knowing he belongs like Viney, Wines interviews I have seen. He stated he was overawed by some of the Swans players whereas Viney just tries to kill whoever is in front of him. For this reason I see benefit to playing him through Casey until he believes his form deserves to see him on this stage. Once he gets his confidence right and a full preseason I have no doubt he will be a very good player.

Totally agree and luke ball has come back to be a gun player, the other thing people need to consider is the stress fracture, the pain from that can hang around for a long time, so when you add up all of the factors that would be holding him back, OP stress fracture playing in a poor side pressure of being captain too young and of a poor side drug saga (less of a concern but i'm sure he was worried about it) and he is still averaging 20 touches over the last month, he can turn the ball over but in general he is okay with ball in hand, and he is our best defensive mid in terms of tackles and pressure around the stoppages, i know that's a hard thing to see when we are well beaten, but it's the same sort of strength alot of the sydney players seem to develop

Who cares about loss of points unless they win the premiership and that is taken off them. It's a meaningless sanction unless those points are in the future. Drafts picks and taking away future points is the only real sanction that would hurt Essendon. If this was MFC or the Saints would it matter if they took away our points this year. Not in the slightest. The same goes with Essendon as they are not likely to win this years premiership anyway.

Bingo. Our disposal is atrocious, has been for years and is killing us. Yes some good mids would make us a fair side, if we improve our disposal. The Lions had an ordinary side in yesterday, but beat us, why, because of our poor ball use.

I like it. You wouldn't be able to do an inside 50s differential stat would you? I'd expect it to match up even more closely.

P_man was talking about Wines being sensational, not Toumpas. Thanks for the long winded rebuttal, though

It's ground breaking to know that in 5 weeks we've suddenly turned from miles off the pace to middle of the road. It's an interesting point in light of the almost universally accepted wisdom that our midfield is third world.

Dermie took it upon himself to personally coach Watts through the game which became very tiring.The more Derm tries to seem intelligent, the stupider he looks. Also-Grimes wasn't good last night-he was average, and Rich beat him. Hanley carved us up as did Rockliffe. We are falling down in the Ruck but must keep big Max up there while he learns. Toumpas had a bad day and can be forgiven . Byrnes is slowing up our list development and is not half as good as Rodan. Jetta might get Toumpas' spot next week, and a last chance to prove he can play.

Looks very similar to Luke Ball in his last couple of seasons at the Saints, suffering a similar injury I would think. Get it right and he gets the power back in his game, he's working hard but nothing is coming easy for him at the moment.

Totally agree mate. Sometimes the mood on this forum is so misaligned with my own that I wonder what I missed.

Brereton didn't need to pick apart every move he made. Some of which were reasonable. How about we pick apart a GWS youngster for an entire game one week Derm you [censored]. In fact not a youngster lets pick Phil Davis who is a millionaire who spuds up everything and is meant to be a leader.

He was clearly gutted when subbed off. We forget he is a baby playing in the worst midfield in AFL-VFL history. You can see how badly he wants it. Cut him some slack!

If I can't watch the Dees win, watching the Pies lose comes as a comforting 2nd option.

You're the joke tonight WYL.

exactly and the [censored] population around here tends to borrow most of their comments from what they hear on the telly. The amount of times I have read somebody parrot a response as if it was their own is ridiculous. it's the main reason for Naitanui-overrated-itis for example

I'd counter that with saying Brisbane, StKilda and Bulldogs produced the 3 good results. But Of course I admit there has been significant improvement. We our now a competitive team against fellow bottom 8 opponents. I'd also say our forward 50 needs improvement but has been decent and the improvement from the midfield will produce a higher quality of i50 and better defensive work. Tonight was another step forward but also an opportunity missed with some crucial small decisions and skill errors and a bit of bad luck costing us a chance of victory.

me too, and I consider myself quite a pessimist by nature

Number 2 picks since 2001: Luke Ball Daniel Wells Andrew Walker Jarred Roughhead Daisy Thomas Scott Gumbleton Trent Cotchin Nic Nat Trengove Harley Bennell Stephen Conniglio Jonathan ORourke Too soon to tell on the last 2 but with the possible exception of Gumbleton I'd say JT looks way out of his league. I don't think the frustration is with his effort. The frustration is with his potential to have an impact with skill or speed that matches anyone on that list. He looks to be going backwards.

Mixed bag. Was pleasing that we evened up the clearances by the end of the game after being smashed early. JV is going to be one hell of a player, and great to see Grimes show a bit after last week. As for Trenners, not even in the ballpark of good enough from a #2 pick, or a captain for that matter. 11 tackles is commendable but there are serious concerns now as he's just not progressing. Simply too slow for the modern game. Shame about Toumpas. Really could've used a bit more silk with ball in hand. Can only assume he was not well, as was alluded to in the coverage. Disappointed with the result as that game was there to be won. Just weren't clean enough at crucial stages. Definite signs of life though.

GA JNR Best midfielder ever.