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This thread is purely for the blue sky junkies, of which I'm not always a member, but I need to dream. Also, despite this season being our annus horribilis, the following prospects aren't completely without merit. I consider this season over come grand final day and thus the curse of this season will also be over - just in time for trades/drafts. And I'm sick of talking and reading about tanking. Club politics isn't really my thing, even though I have contempt for some previous key stake holders. In another thread I've shied away from getting Cloke purely because of the cost, but today I'm going to embrace the idea on the basis that the list management team headed by Tim Harrington have carefully planned for free agency and can manage such a "purchase". I'm also going to assume that we get Viney in the second round. Possibilities: 1/ In - Cloke (Collingwood), Caddy (Gold Coast), pick 3, pick 4, Viney Out - Sylvia, pick 13 to Gold Coast 2/ In - Cloke (Collingwood), pick 3, pick 4, pick 13, Viney Naturally this thread isn't concerned with likely delistings or later picks/acquisitions, just pointy end picks and substantial ways of improving the list. The beauty of getting Cloke is that he costs nothing other than the wage. Team: Def: Nicholson, Frawley, Rivers H/B: Grimes, Tom McDonald, Garland Cen: Caddy, Viney, Toumpas H/F: Watts, Cloke, Howe For: Jurrah, Clark, Blease Rucks: Jamar, Trengove, Jones I/C: Martin, O'Rourke, McKenzie, Gysberts New: Cloke, Caddy, Viney, Toumpas, O'Rourke. While not perfect and still with room to improve, this is pretty much a spud free zone. You don't see names such as Bate, Dunn, Petterd, Morton, or teases such as Moloney and Sylvia. It also doesn't allow for others such as Taggert, Tynan, Strauss, Tapscott ... Toumpas and O'Rourke are very highly rated inside and outside contested ball winning mids with pace and elite kicks. Unlike Trengove they're quick and unlike Scully they're great kicks and will be stronger bodied. Toumpas captained SA in the u/18 national championships. Both are predicted to be top 10 draft picks. Most rate Toumpas top 5 and TAC Future Stars on Channel 9 ranked O'Rourke as they're second best prospect. Viney and Toumpas will add instant character and leadership qualities. Trengove and Grimes will welcome young leaders and mids of their ilk. Also, rather than being 17 year olds like Flower and Healy, or even schoolboy draftees of more recent times such as Andrew Walker, Callan Ward, Dangerfield and Jack Watts, these players will play nearly all year as 19 year olds. They'll not be 'A' graders overnight, but they'll impact our group with their class immediately. Note: all three of these guys have better credentials than the highly rated Toby Greene of GWS and he's averaging 26 disposals in his first year. He was a teammate with Viney at Oakleigh Chargers and another first round draft pick only last year. Every single supporter knows there are no guarantees with drafting, but assuming we draft well it's like having Beams, Shuey and Selwood walking into your club. I've seen Viney and his approach to football and the only other mid of recent times that I can liken him to is Joel Selwood. He has the same manic attack on the ball. We lack pace, but straight away we'd gain three young mids with pace. Look at the spine, or goal to goal line: Frawley, McDonald, Viney, Cloke and Clark. It has the potential to be one of the best in the league. Look at the forward-line. With the addition of Cloke I've put Watts back into the forward-line. The two best defenders go to Cloke and Clark, but the opposition have still got to cover Jurrah and Howe as other agile marking options, plus a 196cm Jack Watts. We still need a quality crumbing forward, but I've put Blease in there for now. That is a ridiculous forward-line to match up on. The back-line is a little top heavy, even though Garland and Frawley are good at playing on 'smalls'; and we need an elite kick out of defence, such as Suckling, or Guerra, but it's got the makings of a decent back-line. If you can't sway Caddy to come to the club then pick 13 may be retained and a dynamic and fast little player such as Ben Kennedy may still be around. He's a terric small with a booming kick who plays midfield and kicks goals. A midfield in 3-4 years of Jones, Caddy, Trengove, Viney, Toumpas, O'Rourke and possibly Gysberts provides a mixture of pace and hardness, and has the ingredients to be the envy of the competition. Obviously we may not choose Toumpas, or O'Rourke, but that's the type of quality that will be on offer. Forget Cloke's poor year. He's a gun key forward and we've seen enough to know that he and Clark would be a nightmare for the oppostion, especially with quality flankers around them. Supporters mustn't give up hope that we can draft well. At the top end this draft is quality, especially for midfielders. As Terry Wallace said on the weekend, we have a chance to do what the Saints did in 2000 when they picked up Hamill from Carlton, Gehrig from West Coast, and Riewoldt and Koschitzke with draft picks. Current first round mids/utilities gained from drafts: Hodge, Ball, Dal Santo, Hayes, Goddard, Wells, Judd, Murphy, Griffen, Cooney, Thomas, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Selwood, Bartel, Deledio, Cotchin, Stanton, Thompson, Dangerfield ... Just look at the names. All of these players were first round draft picks. And you can add 'in demand' players such as Boak, Caddy and our own Nathan Jones as other first rounders. This year there will be players of similar quality and we have a chance to get two (three if we use pick 13), plus Viney if he comes in the second round. The possibilities to change the course of this club are enormous. Do other supporters share my belief that this club can be transformed quicker than a lot of the general public, or media commentators envisage ? Btw, I know I'm not the only supporter with this type of hope. I'm just one of many. But just as certain there will be some that consider such blue sky scenarios only fit for the land of the fairies. If we can't get Cloke we need some other mature key forward to improve our structures and to help Clark. I'm excited by the opportunities ahead. *If mods would prefer this thread on the draft board naturally they'll move it. I posted here because it's a mixture of blue sky with our core list, as well as drafts/trades.

Paul Gardner inflames a delicate situation when he doesn't need to. What a scumbag. Joseph Gutnick fesses up about salary cap breaches when he doesn't need to. We're fined and lose draft picks. Gabriel Szondy was an incompetent fool. Is it little wonder the club's plight is what it is ? Who needs enemies when you've got these three ? And some of you have concerns about McLardy ? I'd take him any day.

opportunistic journalists + not very bright footballer = big story

I think that if any conspiracy exists, it has been initiated by people who support Neeld and want to get the old administration out of the club. Everyone knows that the AFL will never admit that tanking exists, because of the inevitable blowback that would occur. I put it to you that a number of players who were agitating for Schwab's dismissal a couple of years ago (Jared Rivers I know was one of them), have orchestrated a penalty-free way of throwing shite at those administrators who were (and perhaps still are) interfering with on-field matters. This cohort of dissatisfied MFC loyalists have used On the Couch as a decidedly public forum to attack the existing members of the administration, in an attempt to once and for all eradicate the last vestiges of the amateur culture that has pervaded this club for nigh on fifty years. I'm willing to bet that the AFL will not impose any sanctions, that Neeld will not be fired, and that the current CEO and President will both be sacked. We will finish either second last or third last, and pick up a number of hard-working, mature, disciplined players. We will overturn our list and board, and finally remove every soft, amateur mind from the bowels of our great club. Neeld will remain; the Melbourne Football Club will grow strong, and everyone else can just eat _shit_ and die.

Maybe you see it that way because they are things important to you. Maybe you were right about Scully because you could empathise with the way he behaved. I don't see any conspiracy. It was reasonable to have Brock on the show after he has resurrected his career, kicked the winning goal and is out of contract. There was a big article on him in The Age too. As IRW says, a question about him leaving MFC was reasonable and to be expected. He's not very bright and failed to see the implications of his answer which was easier for him to say than "for a fat 3 year x $400K contract" Opportunistic journalists jumped through the door. FWIW any "investigation" will go nowhere - Brock has no evidence, just a feeling. As Tim Watson pointed out this morning, Demetriou said anyone involved in tanking would be run out of the game so it's very unlikely that anyone with any evidence will confess. Dean Bailey is probably enjoying himself at Adelaide. Paul Gardner is another story ...

I have no issue with the media giving us a whack - we deserve it. But I wouldn't watch On The Couch if you paid me - Iron Mike Sheahan just screams "punch me" from every orifice. "Tanking's bad mmmmmkay!". I can just see Gerard cruising around Manly in an open top convertible, white sweater casually tied around his neck as he winks and flashes his false choppers at every bit of hot totty he sees at each set of red lights. A vacuous ninny with a silver platter complex. Then there's Roosy who actually knows football but his blatant Swans bias makes him unlistenable. You know what Paul? Your bathwater may well be the nectar of the gods but just because every other club can't go out & get a "Hally" or a "Mummy" with an AFL sanctioned salary cap discount doesn't mean they all deserve to have a collective bucket of [censored] poured all over them. Three tossers of the highest order.

Disagree. I was offended by it, as were most Dees fans I spoke to today. You are correct in what you say he said. However, as a former President he should not say anything that is critical of the club publicly, especially when those comments may lead to a sanction against the club. If I was him I would have said "no comment" or something like " of course they weren't tanking, they were looking at development of the list just as every other club does when you are not playing finals". If you love the club, you don't sh-t on it and he did. I am also a former official of the club and I would never, ever have done what he did. Privately yes, publicly no. He could have said nothing at all.

Just when I think I'm out... they pull me back in.

Yeah, it's great ADC. An unknown group of people bent on the destruction of the club. lol Showing your true colours here, ADC. I think you are a troll and should be banned...again. Don't like saying that but there it is.

According to this article, any AFL club that finds itself out of the finals race two thirds of the way through a season and happens to be called "Melbourne" now has limited options in going about the final rounds of the year: Melbourne defeats in 2009: two case studies These clubs cannot: ■ send injured players off for surgery early in order to get them right for the next pre season; ■ experiment by trying players in different positions during games to establish some versatility for the future; ■ test young players out by giving them a taste of the game at its highest level; ■ rest players to prevent fatigue or the possibility of a breakdown through over work; ■ discipline players who break team rules by making them play in the VFL; and ■ give players the opportunity to have a final game (particularly if it's a milestone game) prior to retirement. Sadly, teams can no longer afford to develop their players because every move they make must come under close scrutiny to determine if such moves might co-incidentally affect a team's prospects of winning or achieving the best possible result. There have been several instances of the above in the past and it is expected that the AFL will soon launch investigations into a number of clubs which received priority picks in the past decade including the Blues, Bulldogs, Magpies and Eagles. They might also want to take a look at new franchise GWS which recently made ten changes to its team for the game against Fremantle including dropping NAB Rising Star favourite Jeremy Cameron. After that, one has to ask the question whether the Giants were really trying to win the four points against the Dockers and if they weren't were they bringing the game into disrepute?

Next time I see that [censored] Paul Gardner at the local coffee shop near work, which he frequents a lot, I will be sure to tell him what a low life f'wit he is.

Playing Dunn anywhere ever is tanking. As punishment we should be stripped of Lynden Dunn.

Five years of failure and we have netted a grand total of pick 1 and pick 18 as priority picks, and people want to kick up a stink about one game in 2009 in which we were in front at the final siren and were beaten by a set show Jordan f'ing McMahon, who had kicked two behindsand at least one out on the full for the day... and was playing as a forward when he is a defender. Sigh. Collingwood (2005), Hawthorn (2004/2005), Footscray (2004), Essendon (2006) Carlton (2007), West Coast (2008) and even St Kilda in 2002 managed to lose their last four games of 2002 by 1, 7, 11 and 18 points... Perhaps Melbourne's crime here is that they are the only club to not build a period of success on the back of their tanking?

The sun will come up.

Stynes still climbed out of his sick bed (often against doctors orders) to attend games and functions Gardner missed a season opener one year cause he was going hiking or something.......Stynes was 100% committed to the club It was a status and past time for Gardner

Is there a bigger f/wit going around than Gardner ? Keep your gob shut. He was also the [censored] that used to say there were bigger things in life than winning games of football. I've always hated the soft touch Melbourne supporters. And to think he was President ?

Probably left early...

Yet playing Garland and Rivers up forward, Dunn and Watts in the backline and Howe on the wing is fine in 2012. They can't prove sh!t

This year for the MFC has been a complete write off, and there is lots of negative feedback coming through these forums, some is over the top and un called for, some is fair and true. But in a long failure of a year I have noticed some shinning lights... Mitch Clark - I was worried we were spending alot of money on someone who wasnt worth it, but I have eaten humble pie. Not only on the ground but but I have seen a few pre game warm ups that he is leading, and I think there has been a few times this year he has auctioned off signed jumpers footys etc. Seems to me the exact role model for who want want at our footy club in all aspects. Jack Grimes - For Grimesy to play a whole season without getting seriously injured is worth partying over as far as im concerned. But not only that he is getting better and better each game and going more and more through the middle. Tom McDonald - We have found another beauty here. While he may never be as good as Fletcher or Scarlett (time will tell) I can see a solid 250+ gamer who at the end of his career people will say "wow he really did have a good career" These are a few good examples, lets hear some more. Ive had just about enough of the doom and gloom that follows our great club every where it goes.

A team that has 14 players on the injured list, that's young and that's coming to terms with a new style of play. A team that's supposedly irrelevant. A team that supposedly developed a bad culture by allegedly tanking. So what example do Gerard Healy and Paul Roos come up with to demonstrate the point they were apparently making? A 203 centimetre Melbourne ruckman running down one of North's small men. I thought he was fantastic. Whatever people might think of Jake Spencer this was the antithesis of what these blokes set out to do on their show i.e. kick one of the AFL's clubs while they're down. Pathetic.

If Morton gets picked we will be accused of tanking.

His mates in the underworld wouldn't call it being noble.

Paul Johnson has. Says in today's Age that we didn't tank but rather concentrated on developing players when we had no hope of finals as other clubs do. Cited GC this year. Answers Tigers game when he played on Brown, by saying first choice to play on Brown was injured, so he played on him. There is also absolutely no evidence whatsoever, that any player was told to play poorly or lose.

The interesting part of the debate is whether we're concerned about our actions or their consequence and purpose. What we did, if true, was to rest players or play new players in new positions. Whether or not the purpose was to try to be less competitive, or to ensure we had a stronger list in the future, the end result was that we weren't as competitive as maybe we could have been. But as many are already pointing out, the same thing happens in other guises. What did Collingwood do last week against GWS? They intentionally played a weaker side than they could have. The purpose for doing so was different, but the conduct was the same, and I'm sure the consequence was that they were less competitive than they could have been. In the end, what we did is done by lots of other clubs in lots of other ways. We had a valid reason for doing so, more than one in fact, as do clubs like Collingwood when they rest players with one eye on the finals. People should relax. It's going to keep happening no matter what.

Gardner coming out with further tanking talk is a disgrace. He will not be forgiven for kicking us in the guts. This was the bloke in charge of our club that Jimmy alluded to not being open and honest about our financial plight, so Jimmy let the world know our problem so we could go solve our debt crisis. Very angry at Gardner who should be ashamed of himself. Just cannot believe all the blokes who made a livelihood at the Dees coming out and sh1tting all over us. They should be ashamed of themselves.

It is terribly interesting that NO OTHER CLUB that blatantly tanked has had to deal with the scrutiny that MFC has. Carlton: Need I say more? Collingwood: There is no way known that 2005 was a 'fluke'. Richmond: Hmmmm...... West Coast: 2008/2010, anybody? Fremantle: Didn't they 'rest' about their entire starting 18 when they had already secured their finals berth when playing against Hawthorn at Aurora? If MFC get some kind of kick for this, I damn well hope they point the finger at other organisations. However, given the silence from the club of late, I don't hold high hopes.

Same. Nice to see we've got some ex-players with at least half a brain. We didn't throw matches. We didn't organise players to miss goals, give away free kicks or use the ball badly (they did that all on their own). Winning wasn't the top priority, but that's nothing new in football. It's no different to clubs that can't make the eight sending all their "not quite fit" players in for surgery early to get a head start on the pre-season. I did like this bit of the article though: lol. Good one Robbo. I can just hear him saying, "I don't want to comment because I'm an employee of the club and I don't want to get sacked". Ok! Apparently just a "no comment" is not sufficient.

I dunno, maybe we should ask Brock McLean what he thinks. He seems to have an opinion on just about everything MFC related these days.

What about the hypocrite Roos who, as coach of the Swans tanked all the way through every NAB Cup series while he was coach and openly flaunted the spirit of the competition? It was good enough for him to pick inferior sides and experiment with players for the long term good of his club, wasn't it?

There's no doubt we've stuffed up a lot of our first round draft picks over the years. But I'm now thinking using pick 5 on Brock McLean takes the cake. How fickle is an industry/sport where a disgruntled former player can make some patently hostile comments about his former club and it then prompts this reaction. The facts haven't changed since 2008. They are what they are. I don't see how some dumb ass disgruntled player can air his dirty laundry, and all of a sudden there's talk of stripping our draft picks at the end of 2012. Absolutely crazy stuff. We live in a very dumb age.

Just to add, right now I've got that Olympics "perspective" feeling that I get every 4 years. That feeling that I'm watching the best of the best on the world stage. These magnificent athletes who have worked their whole lives, often for little fiscal reward, for that moment where their performance will define them as people. Puts into perspective how unimportant the dickwads running around for the MFC really are. They can have their inflated salaries, German 4x4's and Chapel St slappers. Give me a kid like Seebohm who was genuinely heartbroken that second best in the world wasn't good enough for her. Thats real heart and pride in performance.

Brock went from the apprentices to the masters. He played in the 'Kreuzer Cup' match, Round 22, 2007 and would have seen the Blues' methods. If he's got a real concern about the ethics of tanking, he would have chosen not to go to Carlton.

Starting to become an opporunity for every person in the football world who has a gripe with Melbourne to have a ping. Disgraceful behaviour from a former President - can you imagine John Elliott coming out and spilling the beans like that?

Sorry that the club lost a(nother) sponsor. Not sorry that particular business went belly up. Disappointed that the club seems to be proficient in attracting dud sponsors. I think that about covers it.

Paul Johnson throwing his hat in the ring too, presumably along the lines of "they even let me play afl, what more proof do you need??"

We'll get Jack Viney with a second rounder!

That article mentions putting Bate in the middle and Dunn in the backline as questionable decisions. We haven't come under the same type of scrutiny for playing them in those positions this year! It also bothers me that the Richmond game is the one that everyone thinks of when they talk tanking. We were leading the match when the siren sounded!

Well said but perhaps this is the agenda? Imagine the frenzy if we lose to Gold Coast! Seriously though, if we are to be sanctioned by the AFL for this trial by media, that will remove all the hope I have. I love the club, but if the league, media & former players & officials are hell bent on pushing us to the brink, we are destined to be an eternal basket case or fold. It's as miserable as I've felt as a Melbourne supporter & that will be the straw that broke the camel's back. I'll just follow West Coburg. The AFL, its loyal cabal of vultures & former players & officials bitter that the MFC isn't their meal ticket anymore can G&GF!

Literally !!!

So let me get this straight, Tony Libratore, told everyone that Carlton tanked. Carlton didn't even get a slap on the wrist. Some halfwit bogan idiot player tells a bunch of hack journalists that we weren't playing to win, and you people think they are going to sanction us? The AFL makes out that they are ignorant, but they know full well what goes on, and it would not surprise me in the least, if Stynes discussed our plans with the AFL when he was laying out his plans to save the club. Nothing will come of this, and when we are winning again, nobody will dare mention the tanking. Hawthorn, Collingwood, Carlton, West Coast? Who?

I always saw McLeans Dept Demolition 10K as a sly attempt to buy the captaincy. "Look at what a good club man I am."

I was always pretty disappointed that the MFC were affiliated with Pets Paradise. There's something awfully disturbing about animals being sold next to CD's and video games. Not to mention that staff at one of their stores were so negligent that some puppies died on their watch a few weeks ago when they failed to provide them water for several hours. Good riddance.

Someone please push the abort button on this year. Our memberships should have come with a seat that you can eject out of and parachute straight to a pub.I'm looking forward to blease,evans and nicho next year. All with speed to burn. Then I can't wait for a flag. Good god I want one now.I'm 28, I'm in my drinking prime and want to win the flag whilst I still have my drinking stamina. I WANT MY WEEK LONG BENDER MFC! Make it happen.

It's not the spaces between the players, it's the space between Bluey's ears that's the problem.

When people don't feel sorry for me when I say I barrack for the Dees.

Stage 1: Denial = Friday Stage 2: Anger = Monday Stage 3: Bargaining = Tuesday Stage 4: Depression = Wednesday Stage 5: Acceptance = Thursday and Saturday and Sunday I'm with PaulRB

I'm worried this is going to destabilise the club so much that we'll finish last and we'll end up getting picks 1 & 2 in the national draft.

I hope the AFL don't strip us of our recent success!

But then ... why didn't tanking affect Carlton, West Coast, Collingwood or Hawthorn's culture in such a way. Unfortunately there are no simplistic conclusions in this matter.