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Just a guy who could win a one on four contest for the Demons on sh!t money and one knee and never ever complain about the privilege of being paid to do so .

Fan, I understand your point here about why the players may be performing like this now, but that doesn't excuse the last 10-15 years. In all that time we have always had players who seem to be front runners, who only run one direction, who lay on the ground looking for free kicks instead of getting up and chasing. Essendon in 2000 didn't do this. Brisbane the next three years didn't do this. We have had a player culture at our club for far too long which was never going to make us successful. Talent doesn't get you there, hardwork and committment does. This is why ALL the senior players (bar Junior) were moved on. All thought they were better than they were, and while they may have been great servants of the club, that doesn't mean they were going to be the players to lead us forward.The fact that none of our players had further careers at other clubs speaks volumes for the fact that we made the right call. Junior was a mistake, and I believe that decision was based on the clubs opinion of his body coping with another season, not to do with other factors. Stirling Mortlock's presence at the Melbourne Rebels this year has been an example of why Junior should have been retained. When Hawthorn hit rock bottom, who did they turn to to lead them? Richie Vandenberg, a no frills, but uncompromising player. He wasn't their best player, or their flashiest, but he set an example, he worked hard, and he did the right things. I completely agree with your point about the players being human, and feel sorry for them. I love watching them, and I've shared in their highs and lows all my life, but can anyone really point out a player who was moved on too early, other than Junior? There has been a lot of hate for the coaches and love for the players lately, and that really surprises me. I've made the following observations, and these are what tells me that the problem is with the players. I may have missed some obvious things, so happy to discuss if anyone has any observations other than "we've gone backwards" because that is clearly for other reasons. - Whenever we get smashed (pretty much every loss) the players with the worst stats are normally a bunch of senior players. Check out Davey, Green, Jamar, Sylvia this week. Even Moloney was down on his usual output. These players are rarely seen to work hard in games we aren't winning. Ablett, Hodge, Hayes, Ball, etc still play well when their sides lose. Our 'senior' players lie down. - We have a virtually whole new footy deptartment this year. The new coaches had 3 months to watch the players and work out who they thought were the leaders. They chose to disregard almost all of the existing 'leaders'. Clark, a newbie to the club, was judged a leader. Jones was the only player retained in that group. No one could dispute the onfield leadership shown by these two this year, but I would argue that Green, Davey, Moloney and Jamar haven't shown any. And they didn't show much most of last year either did they? - The new conditioning staff (Misson and Craig) have repeatedly stated how poor our fitness levels were. We were doing half of the other clubs conditioning. Even this season we couldn't do a full load pre-season. This shows on the field. Time may prove Neeld to be a poor choice for head coach, but you cannot convince me that between Neeld (Collingwood), Misson (St Kilda and Sydney) and Craig (Adelaide) time at successful clubs, the three of them could be the problem? All were highly rated at successful clubs. If one wasn't good enough, I could believe it, but to suggest that the coaching panel is all wrong and that the players are write is preposterous. - How hard is the game plan? OK, I know it is different. I undersatand there will be mistakes. I also understand it is the job of the coaches to teach. But our players seem unable to run with their man and cut off the option. We are loose and lazy. We don't work hard enough. You can only carry so many players, and at the moment we are carrying ALL of the senior players. The current coaching panel has been put in place to turn around the culture of the club. For those young enough and willing enough, they can all be part of the next tilt, but if you aren't up to it you'll find yourself out of there. Remember, Cameron Bruce was one of our fittest, and one of our best trainers, and he looked average at Hawthorn. Every player that has left for another club has talked about how professional they are etc.compared to Melbourne. If we don't have the senior players to lead the change, like they did at Hawthorn and Geelong, then we need the coaches to lead the way. McLardy's statement didn't seem like much, and Presidents often backflip, but I feel his move was to quell the rumours of coach sacking. He backed the FD and hung the responsibility on the players. If the players don't want to perform, they will be out of there at seasons end. The group that wants it (see the leadership group) will stay and make it happen. Edit: spelling

I don't think Mark Neeld needs our advice about relaxing but the Melbourne community should think about it. I know that might sound unsatisfactory in light of our substandard performances for most of the year to date but we are undergoing a major overhaul and it ain't easy. I expect that this is leading somewhere positive and really believe that we will see major improvement and a few different names and faces in our lineup when the seasons's over.

Well said Ox. For all his old faults David loves the MFC. We need people like him out there talking.

Goddard, Deledio & others play loose man in defence / playmaker roles all the time. FFS we were shizen on Saturday, but Watts played the role he was asked and played it well in a defense that was under siege all night. Clearly one of our best, if not the best, and along with Blease about the only positive we could take out of the whole sorry mess. Get off his back.

Don't let this distract you from the cavalcade of abuse he richly deserves in Round 13.

At least someone has come out and said something. The board needs to back Neeld to the hilt last thing we need is more instability let's hope we follow the right path this time.

Cannot fathom the scattergum crap that Jack has copped from thread to thread in the last couple of days. He was asked to play a role and did it incredibly well. 8 D50 rebounds, 12 contested possessions, 22 uncontested, 11 marks with two of those contested. He regularly filled holes and tried very hard in a position he wouldn't have played in at all. I understand that we didn't draft him to be a loose man in defence, but a 21 lead up forward is not going to get near it when we have 30 terrible I50s a game. Those criticising him after that game simply look like people who have made their mind up on Jack for the time being and will not let facts sway their belief. But in all the gloom - Watts did well, Blease did well, and thank Christ for Mitch Clark and Nathan Jones.

Schartz said he had something to say about the Demons tonight and while I was expecting and got some of the usual/same nuggets going around about where we are at and the playing group, I was blown away with his passion and his clarity. He was annimated like I have never heard him before. He said you cant blame the administration when they lost their major sponsor and were able to quickly find replacements in a difficult market. He said you cant blame the coach or coaches because we havent seen the players apply themselves in a way that even indicates whether he or they can coach or not. He said that the problem is squarely with the playing group (old news I know) and then he cut sick. He said we have players drawing $400-$500 K and putting in efforst worth $2.50. He said some of rthe players should be thinking about giving their salaries back. He said that he has never seen a sitaution before where players were choosing whether to 'turn up' or not. He said it was obvious some players just dont care and arent making any effort. he went on to reiterate the fact that football means the world to many supporters (highlighting a bloke that microwaved his north Melb membership) and that it was flying in the face of the supporters when you choose not to put an effort in. The part that really caught my ear and the part that most would be surprised with was at the end when he said that basically 'he couldnt care less if 15 players on that list dont get another game until they put in effort or ever again at all.' Reasonably biting words from an ex player but accurate. Not too much new there but that was his take on the whole sitaution and I must say I agreed with it all.

He pretty much nailed it for me. And it is not a case of yet another media commentator giving an opinion, that's silly. It is an opinion from someone who lived the MFC when it was nomadic with 3rd rate facilities and who well knows through injuries and personal mismanagement how opportunites can be wasted or taken away.

I heard it and was impressed, he sounded passionate and it sounded like it came from the heart. Any player who has an issue with the words Schwarter used should have a good look in the mirror. The line I liked if there are 15 of the 42 players not putting in the effort, thats fine play em at Casey for the rest of the year or show them the door

Personally Id prefer to see a new thread on the comments of people who actually played the game and who know people in the club or who have had an association with the club, than more illinformed 'sack the coach/administration' cycles, but that's just me. especially when that opinion is given with such passion. People are so precious about surname spelling. If thats the best way to invalidate a comment then no wonder the outside world view MFC supporters as elitest.

Out: Supporters who blindly accept everything that is dished up to them and support for the sake of supporting In: Supporters who genuinely support by offering up constructive criticism when required and offering up honest open dialog about where the club is at.

How could it possibly be the coach? The club and in particular this playing group have a habit of CHOOSING the easiest option, irrespective of who is at the helm. How many exciting ‘come from behind’ wins have we had where the players have left everything they had out on the ground? Since 2000 no more than 3 come to mind – that’s12 years people and God knows we have had plenty of opportunity to come from behind. Whether you like the coach or not, whether you like the CEO or not, as a player you’re employed to play. To play, as a minimum is to compete. This means to run hard both ways, to put your body between your mate and oncoming traffic, putting your head over the ball and to tackle with intent. It is the things you are willing to do when your team doesn’t have possession that shows true grit and character. We are at rock bottom and it is easy to blame the coach. All the coach has done is identified within the group individuals that lack character and grit. My guess is that he has told them this just to see how they react. Their lack of reaction and care for each other, the jumper and in turn themselves only heightens the lack of will and desire. This largely is influenced by the senior players, it has to be. Sport at the highest level is Ego driven and our senior players don’t like being told they don’t work hard enough. Their lack of receptiveness also goes a long way to reflect their lack of character. Watch WC or Syd play, then sit high in the stands (level 4 Q41 next to the TAB, food and bar in the MCC members is highly recommended) and watch how stagnant we are. The end of the season will be active, we have a ‘talented’ crop of youngsters who are being led astray and influenced by our more experienced players. If these experienced players aren’t moved on (along with Brian Royal) we as a team have no chance and as a club may not survive. By Neelding the axe we force the youngsters to create their own identity and give them opportunity to change the perceptions of the club. What would be more rewarding than dragging a club that hasn’t had the ultimate success since 64 over the line in a GF? To do that we need buy in, for buy in we need to change the culture. In the wise words of Yazz, ‘THE ONLY WAY IS UP’. PS: I read this morning that a Demonland poster flew in from O/S to simply watch the games this week. What commitment!! Give that man a jumper and throw him in the guts this week! Lace Out.

I thought it was going to be a link to a HS article on Melbourne fans calling for it! Please do Carlton, we'll gladly have him back as our midfield coach.

Looks like Roos and Sheahan liked my question Daisy and McLardy's response was damning. Not his fault, he just didn't want to tell the truth. IMO the club has handled the older players so poorly it's no surprise they haven't "bought in". The organization has ostracised the older players and particularly last years leadership group. We all know they had limitations but under Bailey they did as well as their ability allowed and the playing group were united and commited. When McLardy and Stynes interviewed the leadership group leading into the Geelong match the leaders spilled their guts on Schwab, Connolly and one or two others. They supported Bailey. McLardy listened, thanked them and acted. Schwab would not be extendedand Bailey was likely to be. This all changed post 186 and Bailey and a few others who were in the Bailey camp were dumped and in Bailey's case in the worst of ways. The playing group and leadership group in particular felt responsible. The players are not "politically savvy". They thought they were doing the right thing. But they have, almost to a man, been dumped and humiliated by the current football department. Their loyalty to the club has counted for nothing. No wonder Moloney, Green, Davey and to a lesser extent Rivers are shadows today and their older mates like Jamar and Sylvia impacted as well. You reap what you sow. The FD lost the respect of those players and I can understand why. MFC have a history of treating its older players very poorly. And please don't come back with "but they're professionals". They are humans with all the feelings and reactions that go with it. They've been told they're not wanted. What did you expect?

Sprained ankle only - he will miss 2 weeks!

Potential finalists? When? Not in the last 5 years in any case, not even close. You're another of these delusional supporters, who thought that everything was rosy when we were losing by 186 to the genuine finalists, and picking up cheap wins against the likes of GC. Neeld hasn't turned us into anything - though maybe for the first time, in pealing back the layers of BS and refusing to continue to give the players an easy ride, he's exposing the soft underbelly for all to see. And it's ugly. But necessary. Go read the Kennelly article, then the Misson one on the MFC site. Forget about not knowing how to play - half our team doesn't even know how to train.

Are you serious? In his first 5 years Godard never went near another player let alone a pack; he built himself up over a break between seasons and hasn't looked back since then. Soft, he sure was. I agree with DD, Watts will play a role like Goddard in a year or two and will be invaluable for the team.

11) After a round 10 defeat to Essendon drops the Demons to 0-10, the club holds a colouring competition open to the members whereby the winner gains a spot on the playing list. Plucked from obscurity, a random poster from Demonland named pantaloons wins the competition and surprisingly gains selection for the Queen's Birthday clash, where he kicks 10 goals on debut and leads the club to victory. More heroics ensue, and the Demons rattle off an improbable 12 straight wins and an unlikely finals berth on the back of young pantaloons' 103 goals and Coleman Medal from the forward pocket. More zany action ensues in the finals, where the club reaches the Grand Final after three straight wins by less than a kick, including a goal after the siren against Hawthorn in the prelim. The club then defeats West Coast in the Grand Final by 120 points and followed that up by using pick 22 on Jack Viney. The end.

I cannot comprehend how anyone thinks Neeld should be sacked this year let alone believes it might happen. I know we have all been kicked in the guts but get a grip on reality.

Correct. And whether we like to admit it or not, it's not a simple case of "stuff the old players, they are no good anyway". If out of a list of 44 players, the 8 most experienced and better players have had enough, then we are in big trouble. You don't magically replace your best and most senior players, and you certainly do nothing for the younger players by putting those guys out on the sidewalk for the garbage truck to collect. The way we treated Junior impacted a lot of players, not just Junior. If you work for an organisation that doesn't respect or appreciate the loyalty of their employees, you're not likely to work very hard for that business. Jamar and Moloney can say "I gave you the best years of my career and got no success for it, and now you're treating me like yesterday's fish and chips". To us it might be infuriating as supporters, but these players are people and nobody likes a new boss coming in and treating you like you're a worthless idiot. There is a way to implement a new regime and there is a way to just [censored] a whole lot of people off. Neeld's first job should have been to sell these players the dream, and maybe he did, but it's hard to keep believing when you get smashed every week, your leadership title has been taken away from you, and the media thinks you're lazy and undisciplined. And the hardest thing is coming back to that mindset of caring for the organisation, because once you turn against something, it's hard to change back. And please don't think that I am sticking up for our crappy, lazy, spoilt senior players, because I'm not, but at some point we have to acknowledge that we are dealing with dozens of human beings who on some level must just feel like they've wasted their whole career. Yes they are partly to blame, but what sort of football department do we have, if they can't bring the boys back to a good place mentally, so much so, that we are getting demolished before the game even starts. Players not giving anything is a sign of players who don't have anything to give.

Me too. I'm posting this because there's no way this could be posted too often: This is the post you replied to: I don't see that jumbo's post was necessarily about Schwarz's 'foibles', as you call them, since you could certainly argue that Schwarz had enough to overcome with his injuries and his Dad etc. Even if Schwarz's 'foibles' were part of what jumbo was referring to I don't see that it was deriding Schwartz.

I liked what Ox said, and his passion. As said earlier, echoed the sentiments of many members.

ok (edit) back to the drawing board: "You say Schwarta, and I say Schworta, you say Maloney, I say Moloney, Maloney, Moloney, Rigoni "Ragoni" Let's call the whole thing off Let's call the whole thing off" Apologies, George Gershwin and Norm Smith's curse PS The Ox is patient.

For those that missed it. David Schwarz - http://www.sen.com.au/audioplayer/Audio/David-Schwarz-on-Melbournes-Poor-Form/4663

I think from memory Watts 12 contested possessions.... Sylvia had 6 possessions total! And don't forget Ben Reid was drafted originally as a forward, but not from pick 1 like Watts

I've been patient. I've given them far more money and support than they deserve. I'm sick of waiting just to even be competitive and out of the bottom chunk of the ladder. This rebuild better be successful or the MFC may have just killed itself.

Stick the Russian down and full forward for the first half of a game Put Beamer in the back pocket. How often does he spray his team mates! Try defending with no midfield pressure 70 times a game

But do we need another player that skirts the pack and waits for his team mates to get the ball to him? Give me Jack Viney, he will get his own ball and crush Scully on the way through.

Disagree. The CEO can only do some much for the business side of the club. The football department / players must take responsibility for the rot they are putting out each week. The administration can do the best job in the world but it won't mean anything if the players have no pride in themselves and respect for the club and its supporters.

The team is at it's lowest ebb for years, the club is being weighed down by this team at the moment and some of you want to pile on more baggage?! If you can get to the game, get to the game. Support and critique, hope and lament - it's what we do.

You serious?! Dunn, Bate, Bartram and Joel Mac all have a fair dinkum crack each time they play for us. I'd actually bring all of those players back.

One proviso: play those players who are following instructions. Only them. Leave out those who aren't, no matter who they are. No exceptions

FCS What the hell do you think that would achieve? Seriously, what is the end result you are trying to get from taking that action? Maybe the club would realise we are in trouble? REALLY? You think they don't know that? The mind boggles...

This has already been discussed elsewhere... and for what it's worth, I couldn't disagree with you more... the Crows were not built in a day!

They already have a plan. Which the players aren't following.

I thought that was a disgusting performance for so many reasons. But most of all the lack of effort was just astonishing. The O'Keefe mark in the second, the Parker mark in the third, Josh Kennedy winning the ball, standing up and running away with no one touching him, the free Swans players on the move all night. The list goes on. At the end of the day all you can hope is for an honest performance from the players. Last night they were dishonest and it makes you absolutely furious with them. Then there's the schoolboy errors. Jones handballing to a Swan in the goal square. Frawley bombing it in to the forward line with no one around. Repeated bombing in high to Davey four on one. Not having a big on the goal line to touch the ball from a Swans set shot nor one to shepherd through Magner's shot at the other end. From a professional AFL team it is just disgraceful to see these types of mistakes. As for the senior players, I think Davey and Green are trying, it's just that their best footy is well behind them. They look to be on their last legs. Davey has lost his breakneck pace and without this he doesn't have much to offer the side as a small forward. Green just can't get free like he used to. I guess it is difficult to play in the forward line in a side that gets it in 35 times a game, with most of those entries being haphazard. Sylvia and Moloney, though, are a different story. Their efforts have been pathetic this season. They are playing so far below their ability and are currently giving nothing to the side. At one stage I saw Moloney pointing for Watts to go somewhere, while Moloney was trailing another Swan by about 10 metres. The Swan was running into space and looking for a handball receive. Moloney just jogged behind and the Swans player got the ball and ran away. Stop pointing Beamer and man up yourself! The good news? I thought Blease was great, Wasn't it nice to see a Demon with some speed and a willingness to take the game on. The other positive is that by virtue of being horrendous we will have some high picks in a talent-laden draft. I still believe it can turn quicker than people think but we MUST draft extremely well and pick up some elite midfielders. I'm sick of watching our current plodding midfield run around getting torn a new one each week.

Did you read his press conference comments yesterday? He's backing away from his hardline, he's backing away from his comments about us being 'the hardest team to play against'. The clubs going backwards and ALL parties need to be held accountable. Stop making excuses for some and not for others. You're pinning your hopes on an unproven coach. Lets have him earn our respect, just like we demand from the players.

I'm getting quite keen to hear Mark sing the song. And I am sure is he is too.

Show some character and turn up to the game. Boycotting the game is the soft, easy option and it wholly lacks accountability. In fact, it is the very type of action that we are bagging many MFC players about displaying each week on the field. Crazy post.

I spoke with Paul Couch at the family day and he was excited by what he thought was Melbourne's great young list, I didn't have the heart to tell him it wasn't all that good. I think that we've been told so many time we have a good young list, that a lot of us actually believed it. It was evident that we have huge flaws in our list and that we'd recruited the wrong types, but the media and other commentators were all over us and I reckon it was just because we had had a lot of early picks. We have a very poor list and probably the worst senior players in AFL history; not a heart between them and we have to inject some talent in to the group very soon or we will be history. Not going to the game will hurt the club, not the players, they will get paid one way or the other, but sponsors will not put out their hard earned if our supporters desert the club. I'll be there and so will my son and grandson, that's what being a supporter is.

The only thing we can possibly get out of this season is to finish last, get picks 1, 2, 12 & Viney and possibly trade out pick 2 for someone like Dangerfield. Winning meaningless games against GWS or GC (not saying we will beat them but chances are we would) to finish 2nd or 3rd last would be utterly stupid. In saying this I don't want to see us "tank" a la the Richmond game with Grimes in the ruck and Frawley at FF. What I want is to see Moloney, Sylvia, Green, Jamar etc dropped to Casey and Taggert, Tynan, Strauss, Cook etc given senior games. To win rubbish games that will mean nothing next year just to cost us a number 1 and/or 2 pick would be ridiculous.

That suggestion makes me ill. Dont you care about how our supporters are perceived? The coaches and players are copping enough grilling from the media. I`d absolutely hate it if the media decided to have a crack at us, the supporters. We`ve been here for Melbourne in the past, we`re here for Melbourne in the present and we`re here for Melbourne in the future and enternity.

Its a team built for one dimensional attacking footy with no accountability. Essendon seemed to have turned this kind of set up around quickly but unfortunately at the Demons it doesnt appear its going to be an easy change. But we have no choice now. neeld has a firm view of where the club needs to be and he needs full license for better or for worse (can it get any worse) to make the hard decisions to make it happen.

As John McInroe would say - You cannot be serious. Demon supporters need to make a stand and BE THERE

It only hurts the club mate, and the club is it's members, you, me and everyone else on this forum.

I know everyone's sick of hearing it... but how people can't see he's Goddard mark ii is beyond me. Everything we're saying now (except the fact he's not the KP forward we wanted) was said about Goddard for the first probably five years of his career. It's startling. He's a tiny skinny little guy at the moment who has no weight to throw around. Patton will come in and have an impact cos at 18 he's already 10 kilos heavier than Jack. When he's THIS concave in his chest, his only role will be mopping up in defence. His kicking can be lethal when his mates lead for him. He's got sensational vision and kicking skills on both sides... For now, it's the role he SHOULD be playing. Then move him up to a wing when he gets some more weight. Then finally half forward. There's nothing WRONG with that. It's a shame we didn't get our KP forward out of him like we planned, but to be honest, I don't care, as long as the #1 draft pick starts being a dangerous player in ANY role.

Yeah, butchering the administrators will help our players hit a target.

Maybe he thinks that they have to earn his respect unlike a previous useless coach we had.