Time to go Tim Lamb? Should we pursue Graham Wright?

[Cranky Franky 1,814]

3 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Agree, though we need to take many/most of the comments here in the context of your opening sentence.

I'd have thought that by any objective measure the last 3 years of trading has been disastrous.

By what measure can trading in 6 players to our list who cannot get a regular game be judged a good outcome.

[Skuit 9,939]

Can someone with genuine insight please explain what the responsibilities of an AFL list manager actually are, and where that person sits with the football department/management hierarchy? Seems like a pretty full-on job, with a lot of diverse and potentially divergent skills required. 

Does Lamb identify talent from other clubs and then deal with arranging trades, or do we have a separate recruitment team? Is he responsible for choosing whether we take picks to the draft or trade them out, and does he decide and then also negotiate contracts with a strategic cap focus?

Genuinely curious.   

[bing181 8,898]

8 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Can someone with genuine insight please explain what the responsibilities of an AFL list manager actually are, and where that person sits with the football department/management hierarchy? Seems like a pretty full-on job, with a lot of diverse and potentially divergent skills required. 

https://www.indaily.com.au/sport/football/2022/09/16/when-list-manager-is-the-afls-most-important-job

[bing181 8,898]

13 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Can someone with genuine insight please explain what the responsibilities of an AFL list manager actually are

Reporting to the General Manager Football Operations we are seeking an experienced Head of List Management to oversee the playing list of the Club, including devising and implementing the list strategy, negotiating all player contracts, managing the acquisition and retention of players, management of the total player payments and working with the coaching and recruiting team on identification and acquisition of talent through the national draft, free agency/trades, international and alternate athletes and STKFC academies (father son/next generation).

In the role you will be responsible for:

• Managing key relationships with players, coaches and internal staff
• Managing and fostering strong key relationships with player managers, State talent managers and AFL staff
• Overhauling and overseeing the systems and processes of player and contract data storage and management for
list management and recruiting
• Undertaking strategic planning for short, medium and long-term list management for the Club
• Managing the strategy of and adherence to the critical total player payments function
• Managing and negotiating contracts for all listed players and prospective players
• Overseeing the strategy, operations and recruitment of players via all available methods – draft, trade, free agency,
academies, alternate/international athletes
• Retaining all required players of the club, including working closely with the leadership program, welfare and high-
performance staff to ensure player aptitudes and needs are clearly understood and met
• Assisting the General Manager Football Operations to establish and manage clear cultural and high-performance
standards for staff and players

https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/StKilda/Head of List Management.pdf

[Skuit 9,939]

4 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Reporting to the General Manager Football Operations we are seeking an experienced Head of List Management to oversee the playing list of the Club, including devising and implementing the list strategy, negotiating all player contracts, managing the acquisition and retention of players, management of the total player payments and working with the coaching and recruiting team on identification and acquisition of talent through the national draft, free agency/trades, international and alternate athletes and STKFC academies (father son/next generation).

In the role you will be responsible for:

• Managing key relationships with players, coaches and internal staff
• Managing and fostering strong key relationships with player managers, State talent managers and AFL staff
• Overhauling and overseeing the systems and processes of player and contract data storage and management for
list management and recruiting
• Undertaking strategic planning for short, medium and long-term list management for the Club
• Managing the strategy of and adherence to the critical total player payments function
• Managing and negotiating contracts for all listed players and prospective players
• Overseeing the strategy, operations and recruitment of players via all available methods – draft, trade, free agency,
academies, alternate/international athletes
• Retaining all required players of the club, including working closely with the leadership program, welfare and high-
performance staff to ensure player aptitudes and needs are clearly understood and met
• Assisting the General Manager Football Operations to establish and manage clear cultural and high-performance
standards for staff and players

https://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL Tenant/StKilda/Head of List Management.pdf

Damn, that seems pretty broad and stressful, plus negotiating trades, which I guess falls under "managing the acquisition of players" but we all assume is a much more direct and primary role. Sits under the general manager of football operations, but then I would suppose contract sign-offs all have to go the board first? Sure, lets throw in some data management overhaul stuff and the dynamics of draft night trading as well. Lamb will probably be shot on the spot by MFC supporters if it turns out we failed to submit the requisite draft papers in time for Ah-Mu. 

[Skuit 9,939]

So I guess in the opinion of most posters, Lamb has recently failed in terms of "managing key relationships with players, coaches and internal staff" and in "assisting the general manager of football operations to establish and manage clear cultural and high-performance standards for staff and players." Trade KPIs seem much less of a focus. 

Edited Tuesday at 20:52 by Skuit

[Skuit 9,939]

In terms of the latter, the proverbial buck stops with him I suppose, but is Lamb responsible for employing our recruitment team, or does that fall to someone else and then he has to best decide whether or not to heed their advice? 

[Kent 2,857]

Just now, Skuit said:

In terms of the latter, the proverbial buck stops with him I suppose, but is Lamb responsible for employing our recruitment team, or does that fall to someone else and then he has to best decide whether or not to heed their advice? 

why would any manager work with a team that he she didn't have a hand in selecting doesn't make sense

[Skuit 9,939]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

why would any manager work with a team that he she didn't have a hand in selecting doesn't make sense

Cool, but I'm just trying to understand the organisational structure and hierarchy of our club and other AFL teams in general before I commit to an opinion on the is "Tim Lamb the right guy" thread and call for the wholesale dismissal of not only the potential architect of our flag but also anyone else remotely associated with the club. Seems fair, right?  

[Lucifers Hero 38,929]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

So I guess in the opinion of most posters, Lamb has recently failed in terms of "managing key relationships with players, coaches and internal staff" and in "assisting the general manager of football operations to establish and manage clear cultural and high-performance standards for staff and players." Trade KPIs seem much less of a focus. 

Some long bows in those conclusions.  The last point says St Kilda have the wrong KPI's.  Probably the reason they have traded in very expensive players who have not performed or forever injured:  Burgoyne, Hannebury, Jones etc.  Having such a wishy washy job description explains why their list is and has been a mess for years.  No decent playing list means no decent on field performance and little finals action.

For an alternative and more typical Job Description for a List Manager list-manager-gws-giants

The GWS GIANTS List Manager is responsible for the establishment and maintenance of the playing list that will develop and sustain a top 4 AFL team and to deliver on the Club purpose of winning premierships.  The roles primary responsibility is to draft and trade players, effectively negotiate player contracts and ensure compliance with AFL TPP and broader Club and AFL regulations. The role supports the Football Department strategic objectives which include playing entertaining football, playing in finals and winning premierships as outlined in the annual business plans and budget.

The role is then summarised in these categories:

• List Management
• Compliance
• Adminsitration
• Promotion and Development (in representing the club)

 

RE mfc.  With our 2020 restructure two roles were created:  GM LM (Mahoney) and GM FD (Richardson) both reporting to Pert.  Lamb reported to Mahoney.  When Mahoney left he was not replaced and the role was absorbed by Lamb.  iirc this was a result of FD budget cuts during covid.  I haven't seen anything since to say he reports to Richardson altho I expect there would be a 'dotted line' reporting.  Prior to the 2020 restructure T Viney was the List Manager with Mahoney leading player trade negotiations.  imv we miss their negotiating skills.

My understanding is Lamb's role is closer to GWS than St Kilda.  Also, Lamb focuses on trading and Taylor focuses on drafting (vis a vis the FD's game plan and LM Committee guidelines).  The Lamb/Taylor trade/draft roles can be inferred from our spokesperson/interviewee for Trades and Draft respectively. 

I am not advocating Lamb going, simply putting some other facts into the discussion.  Whether Lamb is getting poor input/strategy from the FD, not listening to the FD, doesn't have the skill set to sell the club to players for trades, adequately managing the TPP, I don't know.  

What I firmly believe is our trades of the last 3/4 years have left us with a lesser list. 

imv we need to invest in a T Viney type List Manager with Lamb reverting to his role and reporting to this person as he did prior to Mahoney leaving.  

Edited Tuesday at 21:56 by Lucifers Hero

[Skuit 9,939]

16 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Some long bows in those conclusions.  The last point says St Kilda have the wrong KPI's.

For an alternative and more typical Job Description for a List Manager list-manager-gws-giants

The GWS GIANTS List Manager is responsible for the establishment and maintenance of the playing list that will develop and sustain a top 4 AFL team and to deliver on the Club purpose of winning premierships.  The roles primary responsibility is to draft and trade players, effectively negotiate player contracts and ensure compliance with AFL TPP and broader Club and AFL regulations. The role supports the Football Department strategic objectives which include playing entertaining football, playing in finals and winning premierships as outlined in the annual business plans and budget.

The role is then summarised in these categories:

• List Management
• Compliance
• Adminsitration
• Promotion and Development (in representing the club)

 

RE mfc.  With our 2020 restructure two roles were created:  GM LM (Mahoney) and GM FD (Richardson) both reporting to Pert.  Lamb reported to Mahoney.  When Mahoney left he was not replaced and the role was absorbed by Lamb.  iirc this was a result of FD budget cuts during covid.  I haven't seen anything since to say he reports to Richardson altho I expect there would be a 'dotted line' reporting.  Prior to the 2020 restructure T Viney was the List Manager with Mahoney leading player trade negotiations.  imv we miss their negotiating skills.

My understanding is Lamb's role is closer to GWS than St Kilda.  Also, Lamb focuses on trading and Taylor focuses drafting.

Thanks for the info LH. Just to be clear, when I speculated that Lamb may have failed in the opinion of most posters due to a couple of broad job descriptors, I wasn't proffering my own opinion. Though it's possible you were suggesting I was drawing a long bow in concluding that other posters had. Also, I missed the part that indicated it was a St Kilda advertisement. 

[Lucifers Hero 38,929]

1 minute ago, Skuit said:

Thanks for the info LH. Just to be clear, when I speculated that Lamb may have failed in the opinion of most posters due to a couple of broad job descriptors, I wasn't proffering my own opinion. Though it's possible you were suggesting I was drawing a long bow in concluding that other posters had. Also, I missed the part that indicated it was a St Kilda advertisement. 

Yes, I read it as the opinion of most posters and not yours. 

tbh I could have written my response quoting any number of recent posts on this.  It was not a reflection of your post(s).  I selected yours as it was the most recent and the reference to KPI's.

Always have lots of time for your opinions.

[Skuit 9,939]

Also, to clarify, so you're of the belief that Lamb took on Mahoney's list management job, which was previously split and structured alongside Richardson overseeing the footy department, with both equals directly reporting to Pert? 

[Skuit 9,939]

I'm not a business guru, but I would imagine most larger old-school organisations would have a clearer vertical chain of command? I know horizontal is the buzz, but these roles at a smaller footy club appear more hands on. Maybe someone can enlighten me? 

[Skuit 9,939]

So take away our recent trading for the moment, which is dictated by the parameters of our draft capital and may be influenced by Taylor for example declaring that this year is a bumper crop and in no way should we trade out our first pick, should Lamb be credited with a list strategy that saw us bring in twin KPDs and build our premiership from there, an innovation that I had previously credited to Goodwin?

Also, we can all respect that list management is a pretty precarious juggling act (even without the longer-term contract side), especially as to limited ruck and tall spots. As one example, no matter how good they turn out, we recently took KPFs at our first pick in back-to-back drafts, when most of us were concerned that we needed more firepower. Are there examples where lamb has completely botched the strategy as per agreed needs? 

[Lucifers Hero 38,929]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

Also, to clarify, so you're 1) of the belief that Lamb took on Mahoney's list management job, which was previously split and structured alongside Richardson overseeing the footy department, with both equals directly reporting to Pert? 

1) Yes.

Pert's acknowledgement of Mahoney when he left: mahoney-to-depart-the-demons

“He was one of the key drivers of our AFLW program at its inception, oversaw our AFL list management strategy and has played a pivotal role managing the Casey Fields facility redevelopment"

Since then Lamb has been our spokesperson for trades, player contracts and referred to as List Manager.  

Note:  I earlier referred to 2020 Mahoney's new role as GM List Mngt which isn't quite right.  It was a new role of 'GM Football Facilities and Administration', with the new GM FD role eg coaching, game plan, development etc. going to Richardson.

2) Yes. 

As GM's organisationally Mahoney and Richardson were 'equals' and both reported to Pert.  When Mahoney left it is unclear who Lamb reports to.  I don't think he has 'GM' in his title. 

 

Unfortunately, the club stopped publishing the 'who's who in the zoo' type info around 2020 so my interpretation and recollections could be incorrect. 

Edited Tuesday at 23:16 by Lucifers Hero

[layzie 32,744]

38 minutes ago, Skuit said:

I'm not a business guru, but I would imagine most larger old-school organisations would have a clearer vertical chain of command? I know horizontal is the buzz, but these roles at a smaller footy club appear more hands on. Maybe someone can enlighten me? 

"You'll love working here, we have a flat management structure and we work hard but play harder! We have an open plan office and the CEO's desk is here so they can be with all the other troglodytes." 

[Lucifers Hero 38,929]

21 minutes ago, Skuit said:

So take away our recent trading for the moment, which is dictated by the parameters of our draft capital and may be influenced by Taylor for example declaring that this year is a bumper crop and in no way should we trade out our first pick, should Lamb be credited with a list strategy that saw us bring in twin KPDs and build our premiership from there, an innovation that I had previously credited to Goodwin?

Also, we can all respect that list management is a pretty precarious juggling act (even without the longer-term contract side), especially as to limited ruck and tall spots. As one example, no matter how good they turn out, we recently took KPFs at our first pick in back-to-back drafts, when most of us were concerned that we needed more firepower. Are there examples where lamb has completely botched the strategy as per agreed needs? 

Lamb deserves some credit.  imv it was T.Viney and Mahoney who led the trades charge so to speak.  I clearly recall reports of Mahoney's negotiations with Adelaide/Freo/GCS re Lever, Hogan, May.   And his negotiations with GCS for pick swaps to get Oliver.

Of course there is no way of knowing who did what behind the scenes or who attended the negotiation meetings.

Edited Tuesday at 23:17 by Lucifers Hero

[Skuit 9,939]

16 minutes ago, layzie said:

"You'll love working here, we have a flat management structure and we work hard but play harder! We have an open plan office and the CEO's desk is here so they can be with all the other troglodytes." 

This is funny, but when I was looking for a job a few years ago in Amsterdam the first thing every recruiter told me about was the office ping pong table and beers on a Friday, like that was somehow special compared to my then current position of being unemployed.  

[WERRIDEE 5,345]

Hunter being sign for 2025 has stuffed up my list management. 4 draft picks 3 midfielders and a CHB. An experienced ruck during the trade period.

 

B: Lever, May, McVee

HB: Rivers, McDonald, Salem

C: Windsor, Pick 5, Langdon

HF: Petracca, Petty, Chandler

F: Fritsch, van Rooyen, Turner

FOLL: Gawn, Oliver, Viney

IC: Moniz-Wakefield, Sparrow, Tholstrup, McAdam, Melksham

 

Casey

B: Howes, Adams, Brown

HB: Bowey, Draft pick, Woewodin

C: Billings, Laurie, Hunter

HF: Spargo, Kentfield, Sestan

F: Yze, Jefferson, Fullerton

FOLL: Trade, Draft pick, Draft pick

IC: Mentha, Verrall

SUS: Pickett

[titan_uranus 24,559]

On 17/09/2024 at 19:49, Its Time for Another said:

I think it's fair to say looking at the comments on this thread that most people are absolutely clueless on what a List Manager does.  He is not a recruiter. He doesn't spend his time scouting junior talent and talent at other clubs. He has to make an ongoing assessment of where the list is in relation to the Premiership window which is probably the single most important judgement he has to make. On the basis of that assessment you decide whether to draft or trade. He has to work out the demographics of the list.  He has to manage the salary cap. He has to sit down withe football department to work out under their guidance what players are required in what positions and then finding them is handed over the the recruiters.

Yes there have been a series of dud trades in the past couple of years. He doesn't pick the players the recruiters do. He picks what type of players are needed and everyone of the players picked in the last few years have been for very specific list purposes. They would have been best available and with the limited cap space we would have had at the time.  To blame Tim Lamb for those choices is plain wrong. 

There's a lot of hindsight calls going on about players who left. Bedford was given 6 games in his last year. He was good for the first two and horrendous for the rest. Swatted off the ball like a mosquito. Chandler was way ahead of him at that stage. I've watched a couple of his games at GWS he's been just ok. His speed is a huge asset but his decision making and football IQ are not high. Jordan wasn't given games because he was very ordinary last year and there were players ahead of him. Bit rich to blame Lamb or Goodwin for that. 

I'm obviously seriously in the minority here but I think Lamb's done an excellent list management job. He has kept turning over the list and going to the draft and getting young talent every year. We're not going to drop off a cliff like a few teams like Hawks, Eagles, Pies are heading for a massive one. The list management is in step with the Club's strategic plan to remain competitive long term. There are a lot of reasons why that didn't happen this year. Mainly injuries but to call for the list manager to go because of this year is misplaced.

16 hours ago, bing181 said:

Agree, though we need to take many/most of the comments here in the context of your opening sentence.

I suppose I'm "absolutely clueless" then.

Is it "clueless" to query Lamb's involvement, and therefore his overall performance, in the following:

1. The decisions to bring in McAdam, Fullarton, Billings and Schache? (I'd add Hunter too but, to be fair, his 2023 was good)
2. The balance of our midfield (i.e. did we go into 2024 with enough depth in terms of who can play midfield outside of Trac, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw and Sparrow - when Gus went down, did we have enough cover?)
3. Players who appear to only have one role (e.g. what can Sparrow offer other than being a mid, and is that lack of flexibility appropriate given our planned reliance on Trac, Oliver and Viney as mainly mids going into 2024)?
4. The lack of instinctive key forwards on the list (leaving us to fashion key forwards out of key defenders in Petty and Turner)
5. The lack of any ruck depth
6. The decision to take a key forward in the mid-season draft when we had pressing issues in the midfield given what had happened to Gus and what was happening to Oliver
7. The decisions to re-contract players like Schache and Laurie before they had established themselves on-field - particularly given, as it turned out, Schache played one game all year (yes, this is hindsight, but wasn't exactly hard to foresee)

Nothing's black/white. People get measures on a whole host of metrics. Is it not possible that Lamb's done well in some regards (e.g. getting our core talent contracted through for years) but poorly in others?

Or are we all [censored] and only you guys get it?

[bing181 8,898]

1 hour ago, titan_uranus said:

Is it "clueless" to query Lamb's involvement, and therefore his overall performance, in the following:

1. The decisions to bring in McAdam, Fullarton, Billings and Schache? (I'd add Hunter too but, to be fair, his 2023 was good)

Without even going any further than your first point and irrespective of its merits, there's a list managent committee composed of (AFAIK) Goodwin, Richardson, Lamb and Jason Taylor. i.e., all of these calls are collective, with recruitment and identification of talent being Taylor's area.

[58er 5,910]

16 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

Hunter being sign for 2025 has stuffed up my list management. 4 draft picks 3 midfielders and a CHB. An experienced ruck during the trade period.

 

B: Lever, May, McVee

HB: Rivers, McDonald, Salem

C: Windsor, Pick 5, Langdon

HF: Petracca, Petty, Chandler

F: Fritsch, van Rooyen, Turner

FOLL: Gawn, Oliver, Viney

IC: Moniz-Wakefield, Sparrow, Tholstrup, McAdam, Melksham

 

Casey

B: Howes, Adams, Brown

HB: Bowey, Draft pick, Woewodin

C: Billings, Laurie, Hunter

HF: Spargo, Kentfield, Sestan

F: Yze, Jefferson, Fullerton

FOLL: Trade, Draft pick, Draft pick

IC: Mentha, Verrall

SUS: Pickett

Is Pup now a back pocket?? 

[titan_uranus 24,559]

8 hours ago, bing181 said:

Without even going any further than your first point and irrespective of its merits, there's a list managent committee composed of (AFAIK) Goodwin, Richardson, Lamb and Jason Taylor. i.e., all of these calls are collective, with recruitment and identification of talent being Taylor's area.

Right. 

So do we refrain from criticising Goodwin for coaching issues when we know there is a coaching group?

Or Taylor if there are drafting issues when we know he doesn’t make decisions on draft picks in a vacuum?

That others share responsibility for list management doesn’t shield Lamb from criticism for list management issues, given he’s the manager. 

[layzie 32,744]

23 hours ago, Skuit said:

This is funny, but when I was looking for a job a few years ago in Amsterdam the first thing every recruiter told me about was the office ping pong table and beers on a Friday, like that was somehow special compared to my then current position of being unemployed.  

Working in office fitouts you get to see the many ways that companies try to build morale in the workplace and make their office the 'place to be' especially after COVID.

One office's claim to fame was having a Big Buck Hunter arcade machine and parading it round as a big point of difference over working in a place with a boring pool or table tennis table..