21 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

I feel we need to go back to basics in the off-season. Take a leaf out of Collingwood’s book and bring back stern non-negotiables. We were the number 1 pressure side in 2021 and there’s no wonder we won the flag.

We were an anytime, anywhere side. Now we’re so flakey, that we need perfect dry conditions, against a small club at the MCG to guarantee a win.

I reckon we play better away from the mcg these days irrespective of the opposition 

9 hours ago, RedFox said:

No matter what happens between now and the remainder of the year, I plead with the supporters to continue to rock up to games. The only way we will be able to attract free agents and talent is if we consolidate the success of this generation and do not go back to the dark days of 13, 14, 15k crowds at the MCG. Let's continue to get around the group that have brought us so much happiness over the last 3 seasons, and nurture the young guys coming up.

I agree, but I fear this will fall on deaf ears.

Obviously we're playing badly right now but withholding attendance or membership as a form of protest is unhelpful in so many ways.

10 hours ago, RedFox said:

No matter what happens between now and the remainder of the year, I plead with the supporters to continue to rock up to games. The only way we will be able to attract free agents and talent is if we consolidate the success of this generation and do not go back to the dark days of 13, 14, 15k crowds at the MCG. Let's continue to get around the group that have brought us so much happiness over the last 3 seasons, and nurture the young guys coming up.

I'd counter that players don't come to clubs for the fans.  They come for opportunity, for money etc etc.

It's all down to the playing group and coaching.  Whether you,I , they or anyone does or doesn't attend won't affect the outcomes.

They get paid squillions...  it's up to them.

Just a reminder that this can be fixed.  The question is whether the coaching group we have are.uo to it.

 

Collingwood needed a change but also have an impenetrable support base, fans, media, sponsorship, etc. 

 

Go hard at the draft, first round will be deep and has a lot of good inside midfielders. Unfortunately we don’t have our own second rounder because the genius Tim lamb offloaded it for Mcadam, we’ll get a future second for Grundy off the Swans and it’ll be as far back as it gets 😂 Great business as per usual. 

2 minutes ago, Jeremy said:

Go hard at the draft, first round will be deep and has a lot of good inside midfielders. Unfortunately we don’t have our own second rounder because the genius Tim lamb offloaded it for Mcadam, we’ll get a future second for Grundy off the Swans and it’ll be as far back as it gets 😂 Great business as per usual. 

Fingers crossed the first round goes to pick 35 so the damage of not having our natural second isn't too bad

4 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

OUTS

Most of the outs speak for themselves with the older guys but in terms of strategy:

Sparrow - doubt he goes anywhere, he's purely a defensive half forward with some occasional mid and maybe wing based on the last few weeks but no one will want him and he's a hard worker, good culture guy. 

Petty - no point trading him at an all time low value wise unless we sign a ready to go key forward AND key back. He's either going to be CHF or CHB next year unless we do that and it's better to hope for free agent compo for what will still be a valued tall rather than selling him away now.

McDonald - required depth, the challenge is the contract here, does he stay for 1 when a side like North might offer 2+

We need to give someone of value to get someone of value if we wish to really turn the list over.

Oliver - if the deal is right and we get off 80% or so of his contract it probably has to happen.

Fritsch - he's cream on a list with no cake. Would be a great fit for a side like Freo who have a stack of first round picks. Sure, it would be trading our best goal kicker but the reality is when you're forward line is Fritsch then daylight and you don't have a midfield you're nowhere. Maybe McAdam has a preseason, maybe Sestan comes on, maybe we go out and get Zurhaar as a free agent. There's ways to cover a medium forward who's a non structural player and a defensive liability.

I’m definitely in the Fritta needs a rocket camp but swapping for Zurhaar is not adding any value. He picks and chooses just as regularly.

All day yesterday, I kept thinking if Fritta played for Collingwood, he would kick 3-5 every week. 

 

22 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I’m definitely in the Fritta needs a rocket camp but swapping for Zurhaar is not adding any value. He picks and chooses just as regularly.

All day yesterday, I kept thinking if Fritta played for Collingwood, he would kick 3-5 every week. 

 

If we get a first round pick out of the transaction to use on another mid or tall it’s a win.

If this era really is over we need to cash someone with value proactively and there’s not many choices.

5 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

OUTS

Most of the outs speak for themselves with the older guys but in terms of strategy:

Sparrow - doubt he goes anywhere, he's purely a defensive half forward with some occasional mid and maybe wing based on the last few weeks but no one will want him and he's a hard worker, good culture guy. 

Petty - no point trading him at an all time low value wise unless we sign a ready to go key forward AND key back. He's either going to be CHF or CHB next year unless we do that and it's better to hope for free agent compo for what will still be a valued tall rather than selling him away now.

McDonald - required depth, the challenge is the contract here, does he stay for 1 when a side like North might offer 2+

We need to give someone of value to get someone of value if we wish to really turn the list over.

Oliver - if the deal is right and we get off 80% or so of his contract it probably has to happen.

Fritsch - he's cream on a list with no cake. Would be a great fit for a side like Freo who have a stack of first round picks. Sure, it would be trading our best goal kicker but the reality is when you're forward line is Fritsch then daylight and you don't have a midfield you're nowhere. Maybe McAdam has a preseason, maybe Sestan comes on, maybe we go out and get Zurhaar as a free agent. There's ways to cover a medium forward who's a non structural player and a defensive liability.

We certainly shot ourselves on the foot with Petty. If all Adelaide rumours were true, imagine the value of draft picks we could have now? 😮‍💨

55 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I’m definitely in the Fritta needs a rocket camp but swapping for Zurhaar is not adding any value. He picks and chooses just as regularly.

All day yesterday, I kept thinking if Fritta played for Collingwood, he would kick 3-5 every week. 

 

Fritsch was manned by Moore in the first half.  Moved up the ground in the 3rd and got into the game.  

He can be laconic and defence is not his go but we play him out of the square copping the best defender who doesn't have to worry about Petty doing any damage at all. 

I really don't care who we get rid of. All I want to see is we look for some young kids that can run quick and have SKILLS, SKILLS and more SKILLS. Our current youngsters still have time on their side to improve their skills but maybe, JUST maybe we need to look at Chocco. Everyone throws grenades at Goody and Stafford, but I don't think any or to many have had a go at Williams as head of development. I have not seen any improvement in our current crop of youngsters other than maybe Windsor who I believe is coming along well. The others appear slow and turn the ball over as soon as pressure is applied and also panic due to perceived pressure. You can't improve the skills of the likes of Viney, Clarry etc. but I would love to see some development and improvement by the others in running and actually using the footy when clear or under pressure. IMO that is on Williams.

B: Lever, May, McVee

HB: Rivers, McDonald, Bowey

C: Windsor, Neal-Bullen, Langdon

HF: Petracca, van Rooyen, Tholstrup

F: Chandler, Fritsch, Melksham

FOLL: Gawn, Viney, Pickett

IC: Woewodin, Salem, Oliver, Laurie

 

Casey

B: Hore, Adams, Howes

HB: Moniz-Wakefield, Turner, K.Brown

C; Draft Pick, Sparrow, Draft pick

HF: Sestan, Kentfield, Spargo

F:  Fullerton, Jefferson, McAdam

FOLL: Verrall, Draft Pick, Draft Pick

IC: Draft Pick, Draft Pick

We draft 2 outside midfielders, 2 inside midfielders a key forward and ruckman.

This needs to be said again and again..

The PLAYERS aren't the overiding problem.

The list is either decried as "talented" .. capable  etc  etc. For mine overall its inflated and overated but there is genuine talent, ability and potential. 

The analogy to me is Chess. Those pieces only do the bidding of the person playing.

The counterpart in football are the coaches.

The problems wont be fixed unless some major changes are made as logically, don't make those changes and the ONLY outcome has to be pretty much more of same/similar.

We need DIFFERENT.

11 hours ago, Dee*ceiving said:

Fritsch was manned by Moore in the first half.  Moved up the ground in the 3rd and got into the game.  

He can be laconic and defence is not his go but we play him out of the square copping the best defender who doesn't have to worry about Petty doing any damage at all. 

It's tough on Fritta as he's one of our best kicks, but he's also one of our best forwards.  We seem to sacrifice him as a link player to try and capitalise on him as a forward.  It'd be great if TMac or Petty could do either job, but it'd also be great if I could fly, so no point worrying about it.

 

17 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

OUTS

Most of the outs speak for themselves with the older guys but in terms of strategy:

Sparrow - doubt he goes anywhere, he's purely a defensive half forward with some occasional mid and maybe wing based on the last few weeks but no one will want him and he's a hard worker, good culture guy. 

Petty - no point trading him at an all time low value wise unless we sign a ready to go key forward AND key back. He's either going to be CHF or CHB next year unless we do that and it's better to hope for free agent compo for what will still be a valued tall rather than selling him away now.

McDonald - required depth, the challenge is the contract here, does he stay for 1 when a side like North might offer 2+

We need to give someone of value to get someone of value if we wish to really turn the list over.

Oliver - if the deal is right and we get off 80% or so of his contract it probably has to happen.

Fritsch - he's cream on a list with no cake. Would be a great fit for a side like Freo who have a stack of first round picks. Sure, it would be trading our best goal kicker but the reality is when you're forward line is Fritsch then daylight and you don't have a midfield you're nowhere. Maybe McAdam has a preseason, maybe Sestan comes on, maybe we go out and get Zurhaar as a free agent. There's ways to cover a medium forward who's a non structural player and a defensive liability.

There really is a good deal of ...'need to do(s)'... in this; it does ask a great deal and outwardly seems crucifiable; however, I'd agree with it all if the subsequent recruiting and/or required developments were all successful. It certainly is worth a shot and will emphasise the need to undertake extensive professional mentalities and core developments. The players that we have let go over the past two years are sorely missed and may well, had they been retained, have filled much of the 'gapping' that is now apparent. This observation would only be temporary, most likely. We need a motivating 'head' to oversight and factorise the remediation; in my mind, that ain't Goody alongside a team of alleged facilitators. As supporters and Club members, we must also be patient; time will be the key for positive change to emerge from consistent endeavours. 

 

On current form, who on our senior list would get a game at another club?  I'd suggest Petty, Chandler, Sparrow, Howes, Laurie, Macadam, Billings, BBB, Turner, Fullarton and Schache would all be doubtful.  A few might sneak into a North or West Coast team but wouldn't crack a game in a decent side. 

Digressing a little, my concern is that in the space of a few short weeks we have gone from contender to pretender. How??? I worry that there are things occurring internally of which we are unaware.  I have ideas, but unfounded speculation is worthless.

It frustrates me that Goody doesn't think laterally enough (or is too stubborn).  It's been obvious to many of us that damaging oppo players need to be hard tagged yet it took the man 14 rounds to attempt that and lo and behold...it worked!

With Trac seemingly gone for this year, perhaps the coach can finally give Judd McVee a run through the middle! Clean hands, a great field kick, calm under pressure....what's not to like? I'd also throw Viney into a forward pocket with the sole intent of locking the ball inside the 50 and to hunt down and tackle as hard as possible. Anything is worth a try.

I wonder if 2025 will be it for Steven May and Max Gawn.

Every year each team turns its list over by about 10%, I'm pretty confident BBB, Schache, Tommo, Petty wont be with us next year.

Its possible that Hunter will go to, other possibles would be Laurie, Melksham, TMac, Chandler, Taj and McAdam.

I'm not sure what is happening with Brayshaws salary, I'd really hope that the AFL is paying for it - or Workcover?

Similar, though less impactful - what of Smiths salary?

In all, that's a good amount of space to free up and should bring in some draft picks. Do we get compensation for Brayshaw with pics?

There seems to be quite a few players with senior experience that could slot into our list, I quite like the look of a few of the GWS guys including Cadman, Riccardi and Brown.  I wonder if if Oliver could be lured from the Cattery? 

You'd also hope that the likes of Jefferson, Adams, Seston, Kolt, Verrell, AMW and K Brown will all start playing seniors next year.

 

 

There is a core chunk of our list that still have a chance to play close to their best footy if fit, eg. they are young enough to believe the cliff hasn't arrived yet. Breaking out the depth chart it doesn't look disastrous yet IMV. 

Still capable of best footy 

1. Petracca 
2. Lever
3. Fritsch 
4. Pickett 
5. Langdon
6. Viney
7. Neal-Bullen
8. Oliver 
9. Bowey
10. Fritsch

Hopefully still capable of best footy

11. Gawn 
12. May 
13. Sparrow
14. Petty
15. Salem

Potential to improve further

16. Van Rooyen
17. McVee
18. Windsor
19. Rivers
20. Howes
21. Turner
22. Tholstrup

Unknowns – can they still/will they make the grade?  

23. Sestan
24. Wowoedin
25. Melksham
26. Spargo
27. Billings
28. McDonald
29. Laurie
30. Jefferson
31. Verrall
32. Hore
33. Adams
34. Chandler
35. Moniz-Wakefield
36. K Brown
37. Kentfield
38. McAdam

Moving on (delist / retire)

39. Smith
40. B Brown
41. Fullarton
42. Schache
43. Farris White
44. Tomlinson
45. Hunter
46. Brayshaw

 

Edited June 12, 2024Jun 12 by Dee*ceiving

19 minutes ago, Dee*ceiving said:

There is a core chunk of our list that still have a chance to play close to their best footy if fit, eg. they are young enough to believe the cliff hasn't arrived yet. Breaking out the depth chart it doesn't look disastrous yet IMV. 

Still capable of best footy 

1. Petracca 
2. Lever
3. Fritsch 
4. Pickett 
5. Langdon
6. Viney
7. Neal-Bullen
8. Oliver 
9. Bowey
10. Fritsch

Hopefully still capable of best footy

11. Gawn 
12. May 
13. Sparrow
14. Petty
15. Salem

Potential to improve further

16. Van Rooyen
17. McVee
18. Windsor
19. Rivers
20. Howes
21. Turner
22. Tholstrup

Unknowns – can they still/will they make the grade?  

23. Sestan
24. Wowoedin
25. Melksham
26. Spargo
27. Billings
28. McDonald
29. Laurie
30. Jefferson
31. Verrall
32. Hore
33. Adams
34. Chandler
35. Moniz-Wakefield
36. K Brown
37. Kentfield
38. McAdam

Move on

39. Smith
40. B Brown
41. Fullarton
42. Schache
43. Farris White
44. Tomlinson
45. Hunter
46. Brayshaw

 

No need to list Angus in that category. 

Delisted or retired would cover the two categorises quite nicely I believe. 

6 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

There really is a good deal of ...'need to do(s)'... in this; it does ask a great deal and outwardly seems crucifiable; however, I'd agree with it all if the subsequent recruiting and/or required developments were all successful. It certainly is worth a shot and will emphasise the need to undertake extensive professional mentalities and core developments. The players that we have let go over the past two years are sorely missed and may well, had they been retained, have filled much of the 'gapping' that is now apparent. This observation would only be temporary, most likely. We need a motivating 'head' to oversight and factorise the remediation; in my mind, that ain't Goody alongside a team of alleged facilitators. As supporters and Club members, we must also be patient; time will be the key for positive change to emerge from consistent endeavours. 

 

A good forward line should be made up of different players. If Fritta is used by you only for drafting who are you looking forward replacement. 

To virtually throw the baby out with the bath water when he is thrr ER bleats of our problems. Is he supposed to kick 3 or 4 goals per week? An average of 2 or 2.5 is healthy and he rarely does not score. Did Tunbridge or Vagg ever get dropped for lack of physicality? No because the side played its part.

Tweaks can be made but it’s like saying we lose Trac  and or Maxy because of their poor goal kicking at times. Look at the goals not the tackles. That's the smaller types plus the crash and bash of JVR and Jeffo and possibly Kenterfield to contribute. Mss as the s bit of jumping into packs on opposition backs occasionally is allowed trying to mark of course. 

I cannot see us seriously competing for a premiership in 2025 but I think we should be aim to try to win the 2026/27 flags if Max can hold his form and we can recruit perfectly. But the key to list management is in the salary cap – that is paying players less than they are worth. At the moment, we have a few players who are being significantly overpaid. We therefore need to do a similar strategy to Collingwood when they let Grundy and Treloar go.

Oliver’s decline is partly due to his poor pre-season, but I think it is also the speed of the game has gone past him. He has never been a great kick and the opposition inside mids are getting bigger and faster each year. I think we need to get off his contract, which has 6 years to run. He is playing like a $400k player, not the $1m player we are paying. I still think there are desperate clubs that would part for a decent pick and pay his full salary (like Adelaide or St Kilda).

Salem is another player we should look to get off contract, which has 2 years to run. He has completely lost his pace and drive and cannot kick over 45m. He is not worth much in terms of picks, but I feel we would be better off putting his money into other existing contracts and freeing up money in future years. We are also better off giving his games, in the easiest position on the ground, to a younger player.

Viney has also gone backwards but he only has one more year under contract. Unless another club came with a great offer, we are better off keeping Viney.

May is another player who we might look to trade given his age and where our flag window sits. (I think he is probably giving fair value for his contract but he is declining.) Brisbane needs to trade its first round pick in order to land Ashcroft and May could be part of a deal (along with later picks for points) to get that pick.

Any Petty trade with Adelaide needs to be over fair value. We know Petty is still a good payer and he is down due to lack of preseason and playing forward. I would not trade him unless Adelaide come the party, knowing that we will still get compensated if he leaves the year after.

That leaves the following core players to build around for a 2026 tilt: Petracca, Gawn, Lever, Fritsch, Pickett, Bowey, Langdon, Sparrow, Van Rooyen, McVee, Petty, Windsor, Rivers, Sparrow, Chandler, Woewodin, K Brown, Tholstrup, Turner, Howes (and TMac, Viney and maybe Melksham as veterans in 2025).

At the draft, we need to focus more heavily on pace and kicking skills.

1 hour ago, Fat Tony said:

I cannot see us seriously competing for a premiership in 2025 but I think we should be aim to try to win the 2026/27 flags if Max can hold his form and we can recruit perfectly. But the key to list management is in the salary cap – that is paying players less than they are worth. At the moment, we have a few players who are being significantly overpaid. We therefore need to do a similar strategy to Collingwood when they let Grundy and Treloar go.

Oliver’s decline is partly due to his poor pre-season, but I think it is also the speed of the game has gone past him. He has never been a great kick and the opposition inside mids are getting bigger and faster each year. I think we need to get off his contract, which has 6 years to run. He is playing like a $400k player, not the $1m player we are paying. I still think there are desperate clubs that would part for a decent pick and pay his full salary (like Adelaide or St Kilda).

Salem is another player we should look to get off contract, which has 2 years to run. He has completely lost his pace and drive and cannot kick over 45m. He is not worth much in terms of picks, but I feel we would be better off putting his money into other existing contracts and freeing up money in future years. We are also better off giving his games, in the easiest position on the ground, to a younger player.

Viney has also gone backwards but he only has one more year under contract. Unless another club came with a great offer, we are better off keeping Viney.

May is another player who we might look to trade given his age and where our flag window sits. (I think he is probably giving fair value for his contract but he is declining.) Brisbane needs to trade its first round pick in order to land Ashcroft and May could be part of a deal (along with later picks for points) to get that pick.

Any Petty trade with Adelaide needs to be over fair value. We know Petty is still a good payer and he is down due to lack of preseason and playing forward. I would not trade him unless Adelaide come the party, knowing that we will still get compensated if he leaves the year after.

That leaves the following core players to build around for a 2026 tilt: Petracca, Gawn, Lever, Fritsch, Pickett, Bowey, Langdon, Sparrow, Van Rooyen, McVee, Petty, Windsor, Rivers, Sparrow, Chandler, Woewodin, K Brown, Tholstrup, Turner, Howes (and TMac, Viney and maybe Melksham as veterans in 2025).

At the draft, we need to focus more heavily on pace and kicking skills.

Do we really see Max going strong in 2026? That's a 35/36 year old, few players reach that age group. 

I agree that the value of some trades is more about salary cap gains more than a compensation, agree on Salem.

Not sure May would like to move elsewhere, you would think he will retire in the next couple of years.

23 hours ago, ElDiablo14 said:

We certainly shot ourselves on the foot with Petty. If all Adelaide rumours were true, imagine the value of draft picks we could have now? 😮‍💨

It was 2 back end first rounders in a [censored] draft, it wasn’t really that valuable unless we on traded them and got lucky with a team moving up.

We can still rehab Petty’s value next year or even better, get him signed up long term playing great footy.

On 11/06/2024 at 15:50, DeeSpencer said:

 

5. A back pocket. McVee needs to move up a role and Howes isn't it. Can try AMW but I doubt he's it either.

 

On 11/06/2024 at 16:02, DeeSpencer said:

Sparrow - doubt he goes anywhere, he's purely a defensive half forward with some occasional mid and maybe wing based on the last few weeks but no one will want him and he's a hard worker, good culture guy. 

Time for Sparrow to go back...