4 hours ago, 58er said:

Mid season draft got the strongest most clumsy physical specimen to relieve ( not fo5 mins per quarter but 15 to hurt the opposition ruck ie Grundy and Co. URGENT or Max will be “cooked “ with BBB and Tmac and we will have a triple retirement package that makes the current Kiwi dribble look like a youngsters first birthday party. 

Granted the humidity WAS a factor ( not necessarily be admitted in public though). Sometimes Max is too truthful in public speeches and gives the opportunity for the future opposition to note little facts that are best not revealed no matter what. Time to fasten the lips Maxie and have Vines confuse the press with his half mouth  half accent ( not known old SA brogue perhaps?). Let’s keep some secrets in house. 

Over to you TL and  JT get scouting and keep a large Demon jumper to fit the lucky tapper and thumper. 

The bolded is spot on from 58.  It's time for Max (and all the boys) to give zip, nada, zilch away to the media & oppo.

Also at the end of 2020 SG spoke about the club and players (as a whole) becoming more ruthless.

That took place in 2021 and we witnessed the results.  It was full committment, 100% team focus, taking no prisoners.

For whatever reason, since Rnd 10 2022 (or thereabouts) we have gradually taken our eye off this relentless ruthless attack on ball and ball carrier (with some exceptions.... Viney, May, Max, Clarry, ANB and albeit not necessarily his role... Kozzy as well).  Tracc also but can go missing for extended passages at times defensively imv.

This slide away (also from looking out for one another and flying the flag when required) happened around the time we lost T-Mac to iniury and the infamous Entrecote debacle.

I'm not sure if there's any causational links here or is it just a result of the natural ageing process with some key hardened premiership players copping the usual old man's injuries and gradually (or more dramatically in some cases) dropping off the pace.

And/or partially a list / game style and skills issues.

We also need to see alot more of the delivery we witnessed with the last kick inside 50 by McVee last night of we're to start fixing our forward connection woes

The lead from Fritta was superbly timed and the kick beautifully weighted (finesse!).

Stop over using the handball.  Team rules need to be followed.  Two to three (or less) to get the ball in the hands of outside run & class.  If no options then a quick low raking kick to the fat (advantage) side of one of the talls or mediums who MUST be constantly on the move and presenting.

No options laterally or under a stack of heat, look to chip the ball or handball backwards to a player behind the ball OR take the tackle if you've had little time to react.

Any designated leading targets showing lethargy or unable to butter up with multilple leads (doubling back included) ... you're out till you can demonstrate otherwise.

Mids who consistently ignore the quick give to lateral targets or lower their vision attempting to hit forwards on the move with deft kicks to their advantage (out in front, fat side or out the back)... you're also out.

Now im not saying the above is / should be the play book or anything to that effect.  My knowledge of the modern game is very basic and no doubt archaic.

But what i am saying is this current team seems to lack the structure, team disciplines, execution, desire and defensive 2nd/3rd efforts at the contest to the level we witnessed (and with the ruthlessness that came with it) in 2021.

Since about mid 2022 many are playing too much as individuals for my liking.

A classic example last night was Fritta immediately playing on after a mark about 30 meters out instead of taking his full alloted time in order to put the team first and in the best position to defend if he missed.

Kozzy is also guilty of this last example on occasions.

Sparrow's silly 50 in the Semi last season another.

This is by no means a 'panic stations' knee jerker either.  Too early for that but what we witnessed last night was unacceptable and a comtinuation of more of the same from 22/23

Simon needs to grab this group by the scruff of the neck and have a serious open "lay down the law' discussion (soonish) imv if we're to get back to anywhere near the team first ruthless ethos and application we witnessed in 2021.

There's no g'tees this will result in finals or PF appearance etc, but we can't afford to lose sight of the above or we (and Simon) will have lost what it is we stand for on the field and be quickly back in the pack of mediocrity (or worse!).

Edited March 8, 20241 yr by Demon Dynasty

Why? Why are we shocked that Gawn is physically targeted. He gets targeted to wear him down. Surprised? Hardly. It’s been happening for more than 6/7 years now !!! So … 

we brought in Preuss to backup Gawn 

we had Jackson to backup Gawn 

we brought in Grundy to backup Gawn 

now we talk about Schache, Fullerton, Petty, JVR or Tmcd to be backup.  Ridiculous!!! None are really true backup ruck and we suffer when Gawn is off.  Verrell is at least 12-18 months away from being ready.  
 

why? Why didn’t we try to get a mature physical 2nd ruckman who would be happy to play the relief role. 

36 minutes ago, Dee*ceiving said:

Bigger than Jack, Clayton, Sparrow and Trac? 

Trac doesn't bump or tackle hard. He actually spends more time helping the opposition off the ground, or patting their heads and yes I know he is a brilliant player and a great bloke.

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Trac doesn't bump or tackle hard. He actually spends more time helping the opposition off the ground, or patting their heads and yes I know he is a brilliant player and a great bloke.

Good. I don't want him suspended. 

8 minutes ago, Jjrogan said:

Good. I don't want him suspended. 

Either do the rest of us, but stop the nice guy patting on the head and helping the opposition up from the ground at the very least.

15 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Either do the rest of us, but stop the nice guy patting on the head and helping the opposition up from the ground at the very least.

Clarry is also guilty here.  They need to cut that [censored] out of their game.  The oppo doesn't give a toss and there's no upside from a team perspective.

Maybe a hand shake or a brief  exchange after the siren has sounded if your opponent hasn't been a pillock.

1 hour ago, Dee*ceiving said:

Bigger than Jack, Clayton, Sparrow and Trac? 

I was trying to understand why Fritta can find space but no one else can; perhaps need like a TMc to block or hold his position in the pack to protect his team mates

1 hour ago, leave it to deever said:

I'm starting to think.....No Max firing.

No win.

I think it’s even simpler than that, take away Gawn’s marking and the rest of his game falters.

He needs to be taking marks for his confidence to follow

 

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Why? Why are we shocked that Gawn is physically targeted. He gets targeted to wear him down. Surprised? Hardly. It’s been happening for more than 6/7 years now !!! So … 

we brought in Preuss to backup Gawn 

we had Jackson to backup Gawn 

we brought in Grundy to backup Gawn 

now we talk about Schache, Fullerton, Petty, JVR or Tmcd to be backup.  Ridiculous!!! None are really true backup ruck and we suffer when Gawn is off.  Verrell is at least 12-18 months away from being ready.  
 

why? Why didn’t we try to get a mature physical 2nd ruckman who would be happy to play the relief role. 

Or replace Bbb and Tmac 3 years ago when they started struggling?

 

The bigger why for me is why are our kicking skills so bad? Is Chocco still at the club?

33 minutes ago, BDA said:

The bigger why for me is why are our kicking skills so bad? Is Chocco still at the club?

Kicking skill are largely driven by technique. And much like a golf swing If you don't have the technique nailed by 12 years old, i'm sorry you are in struggle town for the rest of your life. 

So i dont have much faith for fixing kicking skills in the off season. You fix kicking by 1) recruitment and 2) trades. 

Having kicking skills, much like character, athleticism  & leadership should be etched into JT's brain now when it comes to scouting young talent. Then there is the evolution of the game-plan.. but ill leave that for the post season thread in 24 weeks time. 

 

The only thing that will help Max is Max himself...

If he starts to play better the more he gets targeted then it will stop pretty quickly.

There are players you never physically target for that reason.

You don't want to fire them up into dominant performances.

 

However, it would be nice to have big Carl in his prime running around in the background.

3 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

 

 

why? Why didn’t we try to get a mature physical 2nd ruckman who would be happy to play the relief role. 

Totally agree - maybe though Fullarton was the only one that was interested 

3 hours ago, Jontee said:

I was trying to understand why Fritta can find space but no one else can; perhaps need like a TMc to block or hold his position in the pack to protect his team mates

Ahhh.  I thought you meant around the pill 

👍

I reckon Max needs to remember he's possibly the best ruckman that's played the game and if he doesn't want to be stopped, he won't be. Needs to find a bit more animal about him and impose himself. 

in the 2021 prelim final the cats tried to do something similar, we saw how well it worked.

7 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

There is a lack of mongrel in Gawn. I dont think he is soft, but he isn't hard at like most. The Sydney team looked like a pack of wolves in their attack all over the ground. They were clearly fired up for the occasion.

There were a handful of incidents with Gawn that just makes me shirk - its been there for years and nobody seems bothered other than a select few on here (me included). 

Other than Viney, and Bowey, nobody else seemed to be as courageous. Perhaps the conditions - we did seem to fall off a cliff in Q4. Still in cold light of day we left a lot on the table and given the spotlight on the team coming into the season, didn't do much to put the doubters (including me) at bay. 

Indeed why.

Because we are just a tad soft, only an inkling but just enough to exploit 

3 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Because we are just a tad soft, only an inkling but just enough to exploit 

Yep I think so too. Just lost our edge.
 

Hope the coaches show the players a lot of the off the ball treatment Gawn received during the match review this week. Time for the team to draw a line in the sand.

Why not?

1 hour ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Yep I think so too. Just lost our edge.
 

I think the agro was coached out of us prior to our 21 flag so as to focus on the ball and our skills. And to not give away frees.

I don't want to see players suspended but I certainly want to see more players fly the flag for their teammates. I also would like Max to push back a lot more.

When Gus went down there should have been half a dozen all over Maynard. Sadly there wasn't and that sums us up.

Apologies to Viney.

If we won the clearance battle and won the game no one would have noticed Gawn getting monstered. It happens most games. Only seems an issue when we lose.

5 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Kicking skill are largely driven by technique. And much like a golf swing If you don't have the technique nailed by 12 years old, i'm sorry you are in struggle town for the rest of your life. 

So i dont have much faith for fixing kicking skills in the off season. You fix kicking by 1) recruitment and 2) trades. 

Having kicking skills, much like character, athleticism  & leadership should be etched into JT's brain now when it comes to scouting young talent. Then there is the evolution of the game-plan.. but ill leave that for the post season thread in 24 weeks time. 

 

I've said on a few occasions... we should have a serious benchmark where we do not recruit or trade in anyone who isn't an elite kick and a decent overhead mark.

These should be non-negotiable skill requirements when looking at any draft / trade options.

I'm not saying we don't either but IF we don't then you would have to be pretty worried about what we're doing and where we're heading as a club.

8 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

The bolded is spot on from 58.  It's time for Max (and all the boys) to give zip, nada, zilch away to the media & oppo.

Also at the end of 2020 SG spoke about the club and players (as a whole) becoming more ruthless.

That took place in 2021 and we witnessed the results.  It was full committment, 100% team focus, taking no prisoners.

For whatever reason, since Rnd 10 2022 (or thereabouts) we have gradually taken our eye off this relentless ruthless attack on ball and ball carrier (with some exceptions.... Viney, May, Max, Clarry, ANB and albeit not necessarily his role... Kozzy as well).  Tracc also but can go missing for extended passages at times defensively imv.

This slide away (also from looking out for one another and flying the flag when required) happened around the time we lost T-Mac to iniury and the infamous Entrecote debacle.

I'm not sure if there's any causational links here or is it just a result of the natural ageing process with some key hardened premiership players copping the usual old man's injuries and gradually (or more dramatically in some cases) dropping off the pace.

And/or partially a list / game style and skills issues.

We also need to see alot more of the delivery we witnessed with the last kick inside 50 by McVee last night of we're to start fixing our forward connection woes

The lead from Fritta was superbly timed and the kick beautifully weighted (finesse!).

Stop over using the handball.  Team rules need to be followed.  Two to three (or less) to get the ball in the hands of outside run & class.  If no options then a quick low raking kick to the fat (advantage) side of one of the talls or mediums who MUST be constantly on the move and presenting.

No options laterally or under a stack of heat, look to chip the ball or handball backwards to a player behind the ball OR take the tackle if you've had little time to react.

Any designated leading targets showing lethargy or unable to butter up with multilple leads (doubling back included) ... you're out till you can demonstrate otherwise.

Mids who consistently ignore the quick give to lateral targets or lower their vision attempting to hit forwards on the move with deft kicks to their advantage (out in front, fat side or out the back)... you're also out.

Now im not saying the above is / should be the play book or anything to that effect.  My knowledge of the modern game is very basic and no doubt archaic.

But what i am saying is this current team seems to lack the structure, team disciplines, execution, desire and defensive 2nd/3rd efforts at the contest to the level we witnessed (and with the ruthlessness that came with it) in 2021.

Since about mid 2022 many are playing too much as individuals for my liking.

A classic example last night was Fritta immediately playing on after a mark about 30 meters out instead of taking his full alloted time in order to put the team first and in the best position to defend if he missed.

Kozzy is also guilty of this last example on occasions.

Sparrow's silly 50 in the Semi last season another.

This is by no means a 'panic stations' knee jerker either.  Too early for that but what we witnessed last night was unacceptable and a comtinuation of more of the same from 22/23

Simon needs to grab this group by the scruff of the neck and have a serious open "lay down the law' discussion (soonish) imv if we're to get back to anywhere near the team first ruthless ethos and application we witnessed in 2021.

There's no g'tees this will result in finals or PF appearance etc, but we can't afford to lose sight of the above or we (and Simon) will have lost what it is we stand for on the field and be quickly back in the pack of mediocrity (or worse!).

Good points Last night we gave 3/4 goals with stupidity plus careless play. Was nearly as bad as the semi Final in discipline.

Sparrow a 60m not 50 to the ump, penalty, Max’s  putrid kick out of  bounds resulted in a goal plus Jake and Stephen left the ball behind in the square for a goal and JV refused to hand pass to a teammate in the clear just around the square who was unmarked and got caught holding. 

None of this would have occurred in 2021 with the defence and team ethic that year.

Four goals all stoppable or gettable (the last) but team was not the priority and its about time the leaders ( not Goody) realised this and took responsibility to change it or no flag. 

All the leaders can do this with very little effort but it will make us a five goal better team and bloody hard to beat. 

Again our forward woes showed up that needs to be a priority as well. All forwards need to have their say and solve it themselves if we are to prosper in2024 or waste another season.

Now is the time to act Dees to safeguard the team spirit ethic and act so that the good young players are totally indoctrinated into the Demon Spirit and game plan. 

 

 

We went out hard and failed to capitalize with our forward 50 entries - a single goal from the first 29 entries was poor reward for our hard work while the Swans crowded our forward line. And we completely misread the conditions which led to some costly turnovers, particularly in the first half. As a consequence, by the final break, we had used our petrol tickets and they overran us in the final quarter. Very un Melbourne like and the exact opposite of what we usually expect from the team. I think much the same happened last night to the Brisbane Lions except for the fact that they managed to kick accurately for goal in the first quarter.

As to Grundy, the club completely mismanaged the situation by putting him completely off side when he was dropped, ostensibly to learn his forward craft. As a consequence, he wasn’t played in the finals and, as Thursday night showed, he would have been handy in the qualifying final and certainly, no worse than Josh Schache in the semi final. I get that the view inside the club was that he wasn’t selected because he had probably “checked out” but it should never have gotten to that stage. We lost a perfect opportunity to win a flag.

Worse still was the fact that the public humiliation and alienation of a two time All Australian resulted in our trading him far more cheaply than had we managed things better. The consequence is that we have egg on our faces for the moment and potentially more embarrassment to come.