On 08/09/2023 at 12:44, Macca said:

,

We also need to find a midfield combo (without Gus) that allows us to play Petracca forward periodically

I favour a more medium sized on-the-move forward line with ideally, forward 50 entries that hit targets with lowered eyes

Kicking long just for territories sake is a waste of time given our current personell

Yze & Stafford need to come up with a more scientific approach ... our current method lacks intelligence and is lazy

We had a midfield combo that allowed Petracca to move forward with Oliver out, I don't see why it would be different with Oliver back and Gus out.

  On 08/09/2023 at 13:26, Macca said:

We don't often make any more than 3 changes but 2 are forced for next week for starters

Agree on Jordon & Grundy

Maybe Turner coming in as a forward could be a left field move but T-Mac would have to make way you'd imagine (if Grundy comes in for JVR allowing Gawn to have a few stints forward)

Hibberd will probably stay and Spargo could replace Chandler. 

Tomlinson or Turner as the sub with Laurie out of the 23?

One thing is for sure, all our best players need to play at their best if we're to beat Carlton

So Gawn, Petracca, Langdon, Hunter, May, Lever, Rivers, Salem, Oliver, Viney, McVee, Bowey, ANB, Pickett & Sparrow all have to play well next Friday (I've got Petracca playing well as a forward)

If that happens, we win

We've got the talent and we've got the class.  We just need to perform from the get-go

Not sure we'd risk Turner before Tomo again let alone up forward where he hasn't played any legit games at Casey in this posi this season Macca.  He would need a full pre-season of training here to make the adjustment imv IF that's what the FD are proposing and i doubt Goodwin would be at this late stage.

Tomo is a must in for mine with Hibbo or Laurie as the sub.

You are correct re players standing up and performing.  Most were a mile off our usual season standards last night.

Statistically the team was approx 27% off our 2023 H&A season team rating.  That's a mega drop off.  Obviously a fair chunk of that is the quality of the oppo but it doesn't explain it entirely.  Another significant contribution would be our inability to play decent wet weather (or greasy condition) footy.  We are crud in these conditions. 

Another straight sets exit looms large unless 2/3rds of the boys are able to get back to close to their seasonal form this week.  Only 1/3rd stood up or out-performed their season form last night.  Terrible result overall.

The mid-field combo you speak of is Kozzy spending large chunks of time through the middle and Tracc forward.  Should've happened from half time against the Pies but unfortunately Goodwin isn't great at adjusting in-game on the fly.

The one risky option here is to bring AMW in for Laurie and ask him to play the forward component of the Kozzy role.  Might be too much to ask of a first gamer though.  However he does know where the goals are and how to slot them if he finds a bit of time and space.  Couldn't be any worse than Chandler here anyway and has found his inside 50 defensive mojo / pressure at Casey in the back half of this season.

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

  On 08/09/2023 at 14:01, Dr. Gonzo said:

We had a midfield combo that allowed Petracca to move forward with Oliver out, I don't see why it would be different with Oliver back and Gus out.

Yeah, that's a good point, Gonzo

So Oliver & Viney are the mainstays with Sparrow, Jordon (if recalled), Kozzie, Petracca himself, Rivers (?) ANB & maybe even Salem to share the midfield duties (or in some cases running through the middle)

Along with Langdon & Hunter on the wings

  On 08/09/2023 at 14:08, Macca said:

Yeah, that's a good point, Gonzo

So Oliver & Viney are the mainstays with Sparrow, Jordon (if recalled), Kozzie, Petracca himself, Rivers (?) ANB & maybe even Salem to share the midfield duties (or in some cases running through the middle)

Along with Langdon & Hunter on the wings

I would've liked to see them switch Kozzie and Petracca at least for some time last night. I'd like to see Rivers get some minutes in the middle too and surely Jordon comes in for Brayshaw.

  On 08/09/2023 at 14:06, Demon Dynasty said:

Not sure we'd risk Turner before Tomo again let alone up forward where he hasn't played any legit games at Casey in this posi this season Macca.  He would need a full pre-season of training here to make the adjustment imv IF that's what the FD are proposing and i doubt Goodwin would be at this late stage.

Tomo is a must in for mine with Hibbo or Laurie as the sub.

You are correct re players standing up and performing.  Most were a mile off our usual season standards last night and statistically the team was approx 27% off our 2023 H&A season team rating.  That's a mega drop off.  Obviously a fair chunk of that is the quality of the oppo but it doesn't explain it entirely.  Another significant contribution would be our inability to play decent wet weather (or greasy condition) footy.  We are crud in these conditions. 

Another straight sets exit looms large unless 2/3rds of the boys are able to get back to close to their seasonal form this week.  Only 1/3rd stood up or out-performed their season form last night.  Terrible result overall.

Yep, too many of our best are down on their best.  To win big you normally need all your best being close to their best or at their best (2021 springs to mind)

You're probably right about Turner up forward but he apparently played well as a forward in a hit-out recently

Ordinarily there's be no consideration for such a left-field role but we are down to only one KPF due to injuries (T-Mac) ... and he is out of form

We're in a spot of bother, DD and I'm not sure any of us have got any miracle solutions

It's looking like Gawn will have to go forward again if Grundy comes in.  Again, not ideal but what are our other choices?

  On 08/09/2023 at 14:17, Macca said:

Yep, too many of our best are down on their best.  To win big you normally need all your best being close to their best or at their best (2021 springs to mind)

You're probably right about Turner up forward but he apparently played well as a forward in a hit-out recently

Ordinarily there's be no consideration for such a left-field role but we are down to only one KPF due to injuries (T-Mac) ... and he is out of form

We're in a spot of bother, DD and I'm not sure any of us have got any miracle solutions

It's looking like Gawn will have to go forward again if Grundy comes in.  Again, not ideal but what are our other choices?

There isn't any unfortunately Macca.  The forward miracle cupboard is now bare.

I would play Grundy mostly forward, ahead of Max.  While Max might clunk the odd extra mark, Grundy has been a much more accurate kick for goal this season (running at approx 63% accuracy vs Max's 40%) albeit he rarely takes any shots and his average goals per match are roughly the same as Max going at about one goal every other match.  Neither are really all that inspiring in terms of helping to put a winning score on the board (as in attempting to play them for significant minutes in a forward role)

Grundy might provide a target that can possibly bring the ball to ground but we would need crumbers feeding off and scoring to have any chance of making his inclusion a winner.  He also takes some heat off Max when Max spends time forward, hopefully neutralising or winning his fair share of CB contests.  Even around the ground he is capable of at least halving many of the contests without necessarily dominating.

T-Mac is out of form but you never know.  Being out for three months it was always going to take him at least one match (or possibly three!) to get back to any kind of AFL level fitness / form.  If he gets there at all this year or again for that matter.

Was yesterday's game enough of a run to see him back to full AFL fitness and mobility?  Probably not and he may well end up with 2nd week blues as players often do when they first return from a long layoff.  Alternatively we could see a miracle and the run does him the world of good and he manages to play a decent game kicking 2 to 3 goals.  Feels like wishful thinking though.

We also have Joel Smith but he would need to have a Snake Baker like performance up forward one would think.

The other option is to clear out the forward line with long leads high up the field from the likes of Joel & T-Mac (and not play Grundy), leaving only Fritsch, Tracc and one other crumber such as Kozzy inside 50.  JJ in for Gus will allow us to push Tracc forward here.

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

Just got back from overseas & watched the game and can’t believe the continued bombing and poor fwd 50 entries which has dogged this team for many  a season, have they learned nothing????

  On 08/09/2023 at 14:12, Dr. Gonzo said:

I would've liked to see them switch Kozzie and Petracca at least for some time last night. I'd like to see Rivers get some minutes in the middle too and surely Jordon comes in for Brayshaw.

Watch the first five seconds of our Rd 20 match against Richmond to get a glimpse of what that might look like. 

It’s good, by the way. 

Kozzie gets an immediate clearance and dishes it to Trac which, although only amounted to a behind, happened within the first few seconds of the match. 

Then for the next six centre bounces (I figured that was enough research for the night), Koz is moved forward again, and we lose the next four of those clearances. Kinda boggles the mind as to why Koz isn’t used at the bounce more often. Viney and Clarry can be the bulls, and Trac can slip forward. At least try it more than once. Especially when it can work. 

But boy, was it hard to watch that game then and see Melksham, Petty and Brayshaw out there, and playing so well. 

Especially Gus. I don’t know if anybody saw Gus doing the “mic’d up” segment on one of the post-match shows recently. It was really illuminating listening to him out there. He is a true on-field leader, constantly giving instructions and boosting morale. He does it really well too. It will be so sad if he decides to call his career, which he would every reason to. 
 

Can’t help but feel after watching that Rd 20 game that we may have been cruelled by injuries to the point that a GF is no longer obtainable. Petty will be back next year, but the almost-certain end to Melksham’s career, and the possible end to a 27 year-old champion of our club’s career are the genuine tragedies here. 

  On 08/09/2023 at 14:08, Macca said:

Yeah, that's a good point, Gonzo

So Oliver & Viney are the mainstays with Sparrow, Jordon (if recalled), Kozzie, Petracca himself, Rivers (?) ANB & maybe even Salem to share the midfield duties (or in some cases running through the middle)

Along with Langdon & Hunter on the wings

Does Harmes come in? 😬

  On 08/09/2023 at 15:00, Mel Bourne said:

Does Harmes come in? 😬

There's word that Harmes hurt his hammy in the same hit-out where Turner did well as a forward

The last 6 or 7 picked in the team need to do ok but our best 15 need to excel

So debating the worth of the fringe is one thing but getting the best out of our best is what really matters

So we could have Turner, Tomlinson or Laurie as the sub but it's six of one, half a dozen of the other

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by Macca

  On 08/09/2023 at 15:07, Macca said:

There's word that Harmes hurt his hammy in the same hit-out where Turner did well as a forward

But the last 6 or 7 picked in the team need to do ok but our best 15 need to excel

So debating the worth of the fringe is one thing but getting the best out of our best is what really matters

So we could have Turner, Tomlinson or Laurie as the sub but it's six of one, half a dozen of the other

Yep. And you can sharpen that focus even more.

We’re yet to see a game since Oliver’s return where both he and Trac cement themselves in it from the outset. We need to see three before the year’s out. 

  On 08/09/2023 at 15:15, Mel Bourne said:

Yep. And you can sharpen that focus even more.

We’re yet to see a game since Oliver’s return where both he and Trac cement themselves in it from the outset. We need to see three before the year’s out. 

Yep, in 2021 we had 9 in line for AA honours

Oliver, Petracca, Gawn, Lever & May achieved that status

Viney, Langdon, Fritsch & Salem all went close

This year Petracca only and Viney went close.  Injuries have played a big part but not in all cases

So to say the least, there's scope for a large improvement in the next (hopefully) 3 finals

The positive is that at least we can invisage a number of our players having a big impact ... in many other seasons we simply didn't have the talent

  On 08/09/2023 at 09:16, Bonkers said:

I was wondering about that. Harmes can bob up for the occasional goal as well.

Id like to see Harmes play a negating / tagging role on one of carltons mids... should have worn maynard on thursday

  On 08/09/2023 at 11:51, Macca said:

We are going to have to change things up in the forward line if we're going to win next week

The real issue is personell and that's something we can't fix this season

Our forward 50 entries are more often than not boundary side or with the use of the long bomb - neither works

I'm reminded that in the 2021 GF more than around half our inside 50's came from the boots of Salem & Petracca with 30-40 metre bullet kicks

What's happened to that strategy?

Spargo kicks well into the 50 so I can see him being recalled

And our forwards need to be on the move leading every which way

I can see a few late night meetings for the MC

 

What’s the alternate when our F50 has a massive density of players, precision kicking is not the answer, because there isn’t the space. Doing some quick maths 50m x 90m (wider and getting narrower) 4500m / 40 players is guarding 110msq each (that’s a 10m x 11m grid), there is stuff all space. It’s then turned over, and the risk is that the opposing side carves us up and has a cleaner shot.

So Goodwin plays the percentages, boundary, sure tougher shots, but it either goes out and we reset or we kick a point and reset… and contribute to the density.

We’ve moved on from Pagan’s Paddock due to calibre of the athletes.

  On 08/09/2023 at 11:34, Demon Dynasty said:

There are occasional times when a group (even a good one) needs a  rev up, something inspirational to raise their output to the next level and match the opponent's RIF.

Last night was one of them imo.  We came out flat as a tack (again!)

Yes, it is a coaches job to be a motivational leaders just as much as the strategic leader.

  On 08/09/2023 at 10:12, Brownie said:

I've just watched a heap of different angles on myheartbeatstrue insta page. The Collingwood player flopped. It was a complete act.

Can anyone post footage of it?

Was my take at the time 

  On 08/09/2023 at 13:40, Superunknown said:

Really?

incompetence

or

collingwood protection racket

or

as propagandhi sing in tartuffe “The truth is a little bit of column A, a little bit column B”

If you take advantage and stuff it up it's not upon the umpires to call it back. Shouldn't have missed the goal anyway.

Well I'm going to my brother's birthday thing today. He's a Carlton supporter, his wife a Collingwood supporter. Ugh

Given Laurie had 5 disposals, would we have won if Gus wasn't  knocked  out?

It's clearly more likely.

  On 08/09/2023 at 12:36, Pennant St Dee said:

As @dazzledavey36 responded to a query on the SF thread I had regarding Disco Turner playing forward apparently he played forward today in the VFL practice match and played well

Thats called a Hail Mary

Now that I am over my anguish at losing and at the lack of physicality in such a critical game...

...I'm cutting our fwd line a bit of slack:  McDonald, Jvr, Smith and Fritsch have never played together, probably never even trained together.  Was sitting about 12 rows back almost behind the city end goals and that was quite obvious.  Their cohesion was virtually non-existant with almost no teamwork.   The congestion inside 20m from goal was very frustrating to watch.  I put it down to lack of understanding of each others role and maybe a tad of wanting to be the hero. 

It wasn't helped by Moore holding JvR down by the hips stopping him from jumping/marking.  JvR isn't yet strong enough to break that hold and the holding down is not visible to umpires so he received no frees.  It was very visible to us and would have been to behind the goal cameras if ch7 bothered to show it.  But of course they didn't.

Where I cut less slack is the players (Gawn, Smith, Fritsch) who had shots for goal from outside the 50m arc. It was not the night to take such low % shots and all should know better.  I don't recall a shot for goal from around the 50m mark by the Pies and they reaped the reward of centering the ball around the 20-35m arc. 

To state the obvious, our fwd roles and positioning needs a bit of work this week.

I'm still optimistic that this is our 🏆 year!

Edited September 9, 20231 yr by Lucifers Hero

  On 08/09/2023 at 21:03, Engorged Onion said:

What’s the alternate when our F50 has a massive density of players, precision kicking is not the answer, because there isn’t the space. Doing some quick maths 50m x 90m (wider and getting narrower) 4500m / 40 players is guarding 110msq each (that’s a 10m x 11m grid), there is stuff all space. It’s then turned over, and the risk is that the opposing side carves 

The only alternative is to change the players who are sitting back waiting for the oppositions quick kick out of defence to our long kicking players. May, Gawn, Rivers & Chandler can all kick it 60m. Instead of repeat i50's have a ping at the goals. We're just as likely to kick a goal as we are from deep in the pocket and the opposition will need to start spreading more to try and stop it 

Goodwin will say we outplayed them for 2 and a half quarters,  just needed to kick straight

 

He won't change anything other than forced change to Brayshaw

Grow some balls man.  Have we ever tried Thommo fwd for example?  Could have played on moore 

 

Ha plays favourites and it costs us

 

As for the slow starts. I watch them in the change rooms beforehand and there is no hype no buzz no fever pitch. If steady as she goes, calm,  quiet. 

 

Get some f'ing aggression and come out firing. Early goals are good in finals

Would have loved to have seen Smith or McDonald lay a few heavy (legal) tackles on Maynard...can't believe no one tested him for the whole game.  For that matter a few heavy tackles on Cox wouldn't have gone astray. 

We let Coll get the mental ascendancy early and never tried very much to get it back. 

  On 08/09/2023 at 06:58, Dr. Gonzo said:

Nothing changes - same thing happened last year with Langdon and back in 2008 with Watts and going back further to 58. Same old story with Collingwood.

Don't go and retaliate with Maynard, stick a knee into Hoskin Elliot when he's standing in the defensive hole, dump Sidebottom and Pendlebury in tackles, flatten Murphy or Mihocek.

While I love seeing the highly skilled players and teams play football to its best level, grubs like Maynard and Cox need to be dealt with once in a while.

on Gf day first bounce avoid Coxs knee and just absolutely barrel into his ribs - he is a dog and deserves no better!