POSTGAME: Rd 22 vs Carlton

[picket fence 17,170]

9 hours ago, Maldonboy38 said:

Wet underfoot, high pressure, two teams playing great finals-style footy. A lot of the errors and misses can be understood thinking through all these things.

But the Blues outnumbered us around the ball and spread forward with ease far too often. Fair enough, they played better and were much cleaner with ball in hand.

But our forward construct = mediocre and problematic. In theory, I am a fan of the Gawn/Grundy du but tonight it showed we simply cannot proceed with it. 

One team was playing finals footy..We were terrible!

[Swooper1987 3,322]

A great game of footy. We put ourselves in a losing position early in the last with some terrible centre clearance work.  And that was a collective poor effort from Brayshaw, Petracca, Oliver and Viney in that period.  We steadied eventually and proved that we were as good as them at our best and time ran out.  The Grundy experiment - I like him but he doesn't add what we need.  No goals and no idea of forward craft really.  Hard to judge entirely on last night - it wasn't a game for big forwards.  Our best hope is Fritsch and TMac get back quick.  When last we saw him, Tom looked cooked, hopefully he has one shot left in the locker.  Leading and contesting is what we desperately need.  Looking at what's left of the available options you can put a line through Brown on that front.

We have won 5 in a row and could mount a case that we were a bit unlucky not to be celebrating our 6th in a row yet there is still so much room for improvement.  Unfortunately, the Hawks next week is now must win.  Carlton should win their last two and if we drop both we finish 5th and from there it can all be over very quickly.

[Fanatique Demon 2,647]

9 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

He had an absolute mare. One of his worst games. 

(Referring to Salem)

The Age:

BEST – Carlton: Cripps, Charlie Curnow, De Koning, Docherty, Newman, Hewett.
Melbourne: Viney, Brayshaw, Salem, Langdon.

I think Hunter, Rivers and Oliver were far better than Salem.
It just confirms our thoughts about the competence of the media.

[YearOfTheDees 3,266]

 

 

 

 

[Roger Mellie 4,032]

7 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

ARC technology. Proudly filmed by a Soviet 1935 submarine. Best in the game. 

Short for ARCHAIC

[YearOfTheDees 3,266]

 

 

[binman 42,986]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The umpiring seemed extremely ****house tonight. I hate blaming them for a loss and Carlton were good but my god the amount of scragging, pushing and blocking they got away with!

Carlton player jumps on Maxys head doesn't touch the ball. Play on.

Carlton player tries to evade a tackle. Ball end up dropping out of his hands when trying to handball. Play on.

Player sits square on Sparrows back. Play on.

JVR has his legs taken out. Play on.

And that was just the last quarter.

Carlton players getting away with fistfuls of jumpers right in front of the umps.

Most of these happened directly in front of the umpire so it's not an issue of "they didn't see it". There is something seriously wrong with the way our game is officiated, it is a joke.

And how can the goal umpire call touched if he didn't see it? If it has to go to score review there should be evidence it is touched otherwise it should be a goal.

Furious. 🤬🤬

I am beyond furious.

Forget the result. This has got nothing to do with blaming the umpires for the loss.

Though we would have won if not for the appalling display of officiating (that non free late to jvr was right below me - mind boggling that it wasn't paid - the central umpire AND forth umpire were RIGHT THERE)

That was the worst umpiring I can ever recall.

I feel sick with frustration.

I could pick literally 15 examples, but how could they pay that free against bowey in the marking contest?

That sort of grappling happens a 100 times a match. And when they mark it they hardly ever pay it.

But sure, ok pay it.

Then how do you not pay maxy, Grundy and jvr frees for being mauled all game? All game!

Particularly maxy, who had three players dragging him on that last kick deep inside 50. 

The other thing about that free was the outsize impact it had on the game.

This game was all about territory. Bowey marks 70 metres from our goal and would have sent it back inside 50.

Instead they win it and send it the other way. Pressure valve released.

I am beyond angry with the umpiring last night.

Forget the result, it was simply nuts how many clear holding the ball frees were not paid - for both sides, but we copped it worse.

It's a joke.

And don't get me started on the arc 'system'. Scrap it.

Or if not, pay for proper cameras and tech, don't have a soft call for touched and leave the decision up to the video ump to make the call.

On the soft call for touch, it is completely counter intuitive - if the goal umpire is not sure if it has been touched or not surely logic suggests, given how hard is a for a goal umpire to, one see a touch (unless completely obvious, in which case no arc needed) and two whether it is over the line or not (they are looking up - how can they judge where the line is?) that it goes to the video umpire to make the call? Otherwise what is the point?

A blues fan in front of me was going nuts when he heard the 'there is insufficient intent to over rule' call. Why?

That was right below us and everyone around us, blues fans included thought it was a goal - and he assumed the 'soft call' was a goal.

Imagine his joy when I told him the soft call was touched.

Let's call a spade a spade. We won that game. That was a goal. 

But the blues get the four points.

And we'll deserved too - they were fantastic. 

As were we for most off the game. Incredible fight back in the last.

The game didn't deserve the appalling umpiring served up. Ruined it. 

For god's sake AFL, have at least one full time professional umpire in each game.

And either invest in the tech to make arc work. Or scrap it. 

Otherwise claims this is an elite competition are just laughable.

By the way, to be clear, I don't blame the umpires for that display. I blame the AFL. It’s on them, pure and simple. They are the custodians of the game. 

Ask yourself why the Grand Final is ALWAYS umpired really well.

(Yes there might be one or two controversial calls each year  but can anyone recall a GF being ruined by the umpiring or a GF umpired as appallingly as that game?)

Why?

The answer is simple. 

The best umpires officiate.

They are the best because, under pressure, they consistently make the right call and apply the rules.

The best umpires also don't pick and choose or bottle it - if there is a free there they pay it.

Clear frees that are not paid  don't get the same attention as howlers that are.

But they are as bad, maybe worse, than calling a wrong free.

One, because it creates inconsistency, which fans rightly hate and two it is their job to award free kicks that are there. 

EVERY game deserves the same high standard that you get in grand finals.

There is too much riding on it for what we saw last night.

Edited August 12, 2023 by binman

[pitmaster 3,560]

20 minutes ago, picket fence said:

One team was playing finals footy..We were terrible!

If that were true we'd have lost by ten goals or more. We absorbed extraordinary levels of pressure and but for that few minutes lapse at the start of the last would have won it.

[Gorgoroth 12,955]

6 hours ago, Macca said:

The effort, endeavour & energy was fine.  We were hard at it.  And that wasn't the issue

But the execution and application was below standard and that's why we were a full 2 points out of 10 short

We played the boundary line way too much, lacked cohesion and the connection forward wasn't good enough ... for a top 4 team

Also, our disposal skills compared to the Blues fell short

Yet we very nearly won the game so there's a lot we can take out of the game

However, if we had have won, do we learn the same lessons? 

The loss can focus the team and the team now knows that we are more likely to finish 4th than any other spot on the ladder

In fact, as long as we beat Hawthorn, we should be able to work our way to a 4th spot finish

There's also a chance we can still finish 2nd but that pathway is a bit tricky

Exactly right Macca. A win might have glossed over a lot we did wrong. But also right. 
End of the day they were the better teams and we should have been 5 goals down at 1/4 time.

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,293]

45 minutes ago, Kent said:

His Groin is knackered has been for years No penetration

Even more reason for him to keep running as he had about 20 more metres ahead of him. 

[titan_uranus 25,020]

1 hour ago, fr_ap said:

Everyone saying "we can play better" - no, against Carlton, we can't. They have picked our method (contest and defence) and right now are better at it. Q1 their wall was on full display and we had no answer for it. There was nothing we could do to play better under that sort of pressure. 

I said in the pre-game we would struggle to score against this Carlton defence, especially with Petty out as Melksham wouldn't compete against Weitering. I was bang on. 

They're the best defensive side in the comp since Rd 10 by a very, very long way. 

I'm not sure I can recall us having even one simple chain of uncontested possession. Or a clear contested mark win. Blues fought and scragged and neutralised every single ball. Whether you're Owies or Acres or Holland's - they brought the ball to ground and held and pushed in every single contest. Like we used to. 

If they play like that - they won't lose another game and will absolutely go all the way. There is no side that can handle that sustained level of pressure, and there's no side with the get-out-of-jail-free card they have down the other end in Curnow. 

We've never been the most skilled and our gameplan is literally to bludgeon the opposition into submission. We got bludgeoned back. For the first time I can recall since we elevated to one of the best teams. 

Rd 6 '21 was when we took the mantle from the Tigers as the toughest team going around.

I think we've just had it taken off us.

"We'll get them in September"?

Don't think so. 

A few weeks to go -the top 4 theorising is pointless unless you claim to predict Brisbane and port's movements - we will play who we play. 

Oh - and also as I said, Grundy back in and our stagnancy returns. Yes his individual output was good, but that misses the point. He's always been Ok - he's a good player - but he makes our greatest trump card - Max - worse. For some reason. He can't be picked again. Just doesn't fit. 

You’ve written this like the game played out all like the first quarter. 

As the game went on we got progressively better at breaking down their defensive wall and pressure. We ended up with more scoring shots, despite their early flood of territory.

And in case you missed it, we were the thinnest of margins from winning the game. If the goal umpire had given a soft call of goal, would you still think the mantle had been passed?

The game was a strongly contested one between two strongly contested sides. Carlton, as we discussed mid-week, is much better than many have thought. They can win it. But I don’t consider that game signals the end for us. It should, though, be a reminder that we can’t afford lapses (mid-game, or at selection - got to get this Petty-less forward line right ASAP, and I think I agree with you on Grundy).

[Fanatique Demon 2,647]

7 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Wouldn't think so as the ball isn't in the vicinity at the time.

That’s incorrect. You can’t bump or block a player unless the ball is within 5 metres. Then it comes down to how you do it.

[binman 42,986]

15 minutes ago, Gorgoroth said:

 we should have been 5 goals down at 1/4 time.

Why?

Yes they dominated the first quarter. We were on our back foot that whole quarter.

The blues might have felt they should have been up by 5 goals.

They weren't because our defence was so brilliant.

The matildas should have scored three times in the first 10 mins of the second half. 

They didn't because of how brilliant the French defence was.

The blues didn't miss too many easy chances in the first. They just couldn't convert inside 50 dominance into scores. That was more about what we did right, then they dis wrong.

I'll bet London to a brick, the expected scores were not far off tge actual score in the first.

 

[The heart beats true 18,128]

33 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

What can you do with a fwd problem like ours?

How many teams have their FOUR best options injured and out of form ?

 

Petty

Tmac

Bbb

Fritta.

We have done well all things considered.

I think this gets criminally overlooked. We have had no luck with our key forwards.

That JVR has come on as well as he has at AFL level has been a huge bonus, but he needs a senior body to help. 

[binman 42,986]

10 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

You’ve written this like the game played out all like the first quarter. 

As the game went on we got progressively better at breaking down their defensive wall and pressure. We ended up with more scoring shots, despite their early flood of territory.

And in case you missed it, we were the thinnest of margins from winning the game. If the goal umpire had given a soft call of goal, would you still think the mantle had been passed?

The game was a strongly contested one between two strongly contested sides. Carlton, as we discussed mid-week, is much better than many have thought. They can win it. But I don’t consider that game signals the end for us. It should, though, be a reminder that we can’t afford lapses (mid-game, or at selection - got to get this Petty-less forward line right ASAP, and I think I agree with you on Grundy).

Great post. Spot on.

The blues were fantastic. Brutal.

But if you rate the blues  who are now the new pies, then it is logically inconsistent to not rate us as highly.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Why?

Yes they dominated the first quarter. We were on our back foot that whole quarter.

The blues might have felt they should have been up by 5 goals.

They weren't because our defence was so brilliant.

The matildas should have scored three times in the first 10 mins of the second half. 

They didn't because of how brilliant the French defence was.

The blues didn't miss too many easy chances in the first. They just couldn't convert inside 50 dominance into scores. That was more about what we did right, then they dis wrong.

I'll bet London to a brick, the expected scores were not far off tge actual score in the first.

 

On xScore we should have won, despite their early territory dominance. 

Also if I’m reading this correctly the QT margin should have been a few points higher than it was on xScore:

 

 

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Brisbane?

Nope, Brisbane can't defend well enough to withstand 20 inside 50's in a quarter and pressure above 250 for sustained period. if that was even Brisbane or Collingwood i suspect Carlton hit quarter time with a 6-7 goal lead and the game is nearly cooked. 

I don't think we are, or will get enough credit for withstanding that type of momentum. i've never seen a better defensive effort on a football field. 

if we are just a tiny bit cleaner we win that game by 3-4 goals which is remarkable because i don't think anyone else could have beaten Carlton playing like that.

[Jibroni 5,004]

23 minutes ago, binman said:

I am beyond furious.

Forget the result. This is got nothing to do with blaming the umpires for the loss.

Though we would have won it of not for the appalling display of officiating (that non free late to jvr was right below me - mind boggling that wasn't paid - the central umpire AND forth umpire were RIGHT THERE)

That was the worst umpiring I can ever recall.

I feel sick with frustration.

I could pick literally 15 examples, but how could they pay that free against bowey in the marking contest?

That sort of grappling happens a 100 times a match. And when they mark it they hardly ever pay it.

But sure, ok pay it.

Then how do you not pay maxy, Grundy and jvr frees for being mauled all game? All game!

Particularly maxy, who had three players dragging him on that last kick deep inside 50. 

The other thing about that free was the outsize impact it had on the game. This game was all about territory. Bowey marks 70 metres from our goal and would have sent it back inside 50. Instead they win it and send it the other way. Pressure valve released.

I am beyond angry with the umpiring last night.

Forget the result, but it was simply nuts how many cleat holding the ball frees were not paid - for both sides, but we copped it worse.

It's a joke.

And don't get me started on the arc 'system'. Scrap it.

Or if not pay for proper cameras and don't have a soft call for touched and leave it up to the video ump to make the call.

On the soft call for touch, it is completely counter intuitive - if the goal umpire is not sure if has been touched or not surely logic suggests, given how hard is a for a goal umpire to, one see a touch (unless completely obvious, in which cade no arc needed) and two whether it is over the line or not (they are looking up - how can they judge where the line is?) that it goes to the video umpire to make the call? Otherwise what is the point?

A blues fan in front of me was going nuts when he heard the 'there is insufficient intent to over rule' call. Why?

That was right below us and everyone around us, blues fans included thought it was a goal - and he assumed the 'soft call' was a goal.

Imagine his joy when I told him the soft call was touched.

Let's call a spade a spade. We won that game. That was a goal. 

But the blues get the four points.

And we'll deserved too - they were fantastic. 

As were we for most off the game. Incredible fight back in the last.

The game didn't deserve the appalling umpiring seved up. Ruined it. 

For god's sake AFL, have at least one full time professional umpire in each game.

And either invest in the tech to make arc work. Or scrap it. 

Otherwise claims this is an elite competition are just laughable.

By the way, to be clear, I don't blame the umpires for thst display. I blame the AFL. it's on them, pure and simple. They are the custodians of the game. 

Ask yourself why the Grand Final is ALWAYS umpired really well.

Yes there might be one or two controversial calls each year  but can anyone recall a GF being ruined by the umpiring or a GF unpired as appallingly ad that game.

Why?

The answer is simple. 

The best umpires officiate. They are the best because, nder pressure, they consistently make the right call and apply the rules.

The best umpires also don't pick and choose or bottle it - if there is a free there they pay it.

Clear frees that are not paid  don't get the same attention as howler, but they are as bad, maybe worse, than calling a wrong free. One, because it creates inconsistency, which fans rightly hate and two it is their job to award free kicks that are there

EVERY game deserves the same high standard that you get in grand finals.

There is too much riding on it.

I watched the game with a Carlton mate last night and TBH there were a lot of frees both ways that were not paid. There were 34 paid on the night but there should have been more. Buy then again with the physicality shown would that have compromised the style of game?

As bad as the umpiring was I still think the better team won which is what we need to address. And as for Petraccas non goal I'm happy to take Marchbanks declaration that he touched it:

Caleb Marchbank on @abcsport

: bit of a heart stopper but nice to get the win. I just turned around and thought ‘please touch this, please touch this’. And fortunately I did. And the umpire saw it that way. #AFLBluesDees

[The heart beats true 18,128]

I will say at the ground it was glaringly evident that the longer the quarters went on the fitter we looked.

I think we’ve got our fitness plan right this year. That game goes for another 2 minutes and we’d win. They literally clung on for the last 10 minutes. Credit to them for that, but Salem should have kicked his goal and the score review doesn’t matter.

[binman 42,986]

3 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

On xScore we should have won, despite their early territory dominance. 

Also if I’m reading this correctly the QT margin should have been a few points higher than it was on xScore:

https://x.com/aflxscore/status/1690346182424530945

Thanks - that's brilliant.

So on expected score their expected score at the end of the first quater was only aprox four points higher then their actual score.

Incredible defence given the i50 diff. Brilliant.

I'm sure goody would have made that exact point at quarter time.

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

Just now, The heart beats true said:

I will say at the ground it was glaringly evident that the longer the quarters went on the fitter we looked.

I think we’ve got our fitness plan right this year. That game goes for another 2 minutes and we’d win. They literally clung on for the last 10 minutes. Credit to them for that, but Salem should have kicked his goal and the score review doesn’t matter.

Plus we simply don't adjust to the wet.

Looking forward to a sunny spring September..

[Webber 10,468]

23 minutes ago, binman said:

Let's call a spade a spade. We won that game. That was a goal. 

This! Feeling your anger and frustration binman (as was Goody in his presser, but as ever, he was masterful in his restraint). And for all those who say, “you can’t blame the umpiring for the loss, if we’d played better we would have won, DESERVED to win even”, that’s a wholly different point. The umpires in the last quarter made it an uneven playing field. Fact. Bad umpiring changed the course and the result of last night’s game. Fact. No different to the Adelaide shambles in ‘21, for which the AFL issued a mea culpa afterwards. Will they do it this time? No chance. And what’s been done to fix this shambles, what’s REALLY been done? A fourth umpire? It’s just added 33% more confusion and inconsistency. Spare me! Not full time professionals, not better technology. Nothing. It kills our game. KILLS IT. This result could affect our flag chances this year. It’s that simple. 

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

There is no way any other team in the country withstands that first quarter from Carlton like we did. 

[binman 42,986]

21 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Plus we simply don't adjust to the wet.

Looking forward to a sunny spring September..

The wet exacerbates our biggest weakness - too many poor kicks. Even our best players are average kicks.

And our best kicks -  Salem and bowey - both kicked very poorly last night.

I got there at 4:30. Rained non stop until about 7. So the ground was super soggy.

Then during the game there was a misty raini falling for almost the entire game.

Made handling tricky, and there was no chance for the ground to drain.

The blues def handled the conditions better.

Edited August 12, 2023 by binman

[bandicoot 1,395]

2 hours ago, fr_ap said:

Everyone saying "we can play better" - no, against Carlton, we can't. They have picked our method (contest and defence) and right now are better at it. Q1 their wall was on full display and we had no answer for it. There was nothing we could do to play better under that sort of pressure. 

I said in the pre-game we would struggle to score against this Carlton defence, especially with Petty out as Melksham wouldn't compete against Weitering. I was bang on. 

They're the best defensive side in the comp since Rd 10 by a very, very long way. 

I'm not sure I can recall us having even one simple chain of uncontested possession. Or a clear contested mark win. Blues fought and scragged and neutralised every single ball. Whether you're Owies or Acres or Holland's - they brought the ball to ground and held and pushed in every single contest. Like we used to. 

If they play like that - they won't lose another game and will absolutely go all the way. There is no side that can handle that sustained level of pressure, and there's no side with the get-out-of-jail-free card they have down the other end in Curnow. 

We've never been the most skilled and our gameplan is literally to bludgeon the opposition into submission. We got bludgeoned back. For the first time I can recall since we elevated to one of the best teams. 

Rd 6 '21 was when we took the mantle from the Tigers as the toughest team going around.

I think we've just had it taken off us.

"We'll get them in September"?

Don't think so. 

A few weeks to go -the top 4 theorising is pointless unless you claim to predict Brisbane and port's movements - we will play who we play. 

Oh - and also as I said, Grundy back in and our stagnancy returns. Yes his individual output was good, but that misses the point. He's always been Ok - he's a good player - but he makes our greatest trump card - Max - worse. For some reason. He can't be picked again. Just doesn't fit. 

You are joking if you think Carlton can sustain this into the finals and win it from 5th. This game was their final. Wouldn’t surprise  me they were to lose to Gold Coast next week