I'm starting to think for the first time that we're overrated. Our bottom 6 have reverted to type after Goody managed to get a tune out of them in 21. ANB and Harmes were dreadful today. Chandler anonymous. Spargs no impact. Our ball movement is as stodgy as and we have no forwards.

I don't think our problems are an easy fix either. Top 4 is looking a stretch.

2 minutes ago, BDA said:

I'm starting to think for the first time that we're overrated. Our bottom 6 have reverted to type after Goody managed to get a tune out of them in 21. ANB and Harmes were dreadful today. Chandler anonymous. Spargs no impact. Our ball movement is as stodgy as and we have no forwards.

I don't think our problems are an easy fix either. Top 4 is looking a stretch.

Put your hand up if you seriously think Goody has the ability to reinvent the team and turn the ship around

Not me

The romanticism needs to stop.

I get teary eyed myself looking at how far we’ve come and the fact that we can now draw big crowds (when we want to). 

But the proof is in the pudding, we’re bog ordinary atm and if nothing changes dramatically we’re making up numbers in the eight.

We have the talent no doubt, but my god something is not clicking- regardless of injuries. We have the right to be frustrated as [censored]

5 minutes ago, BDA said:

I'm starting to think for the first time that we're overrated. Our bottom 6 have reverted to type after Goody managed to get a tune out of them in 21. ANB and Harmes were dreadful today. Chandler anonymous. Spargs no impact. Our ball movement is as stodgy as and we have no forwards.

I don't think our problems are an easy fix either. Top 4 is looking a stretch.

Yep, and it doesn’t need to be all doom and gloom. It’s super disappointing, but it’s also a fairly pragmatic approach to take when looking at where we currently are. Our bottom 10 players aren’t getting better collectively, there’s just been a few highlights from young guys like McVee and JVR. On the whole we haven’t gotten better, and we’re lacking confidence across the team. Nobody would just finish the job today, they all wanted to give it off. 

I think we are a finals side, but I think on current form not much more. It’s a shame, but it’s a tough competition and too many of our players haven’t improved enough to lift us further.

Don’t worry about the supporters having trust issues with the team, the players clearly have doubts in the game plan and that’s is more concerning. Where is the buy in? Why has it evaporated?

Coaches have no answers, time for some fresh innovative ideas.

Id love a coaching clean out at years end, as our key pillars of contest and defence are simply shambolic and has suffocated the dare out of this team. But we’ll continue to back in a stale and broken system.

3 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Yep, and it doesn’t need to be all doom and gloom. It’s super disappointing, but it’s also a fairly pragmatic approach to take when looking at where we currently are. Our bottom 10 players aren’t getting better collectively, there’s just been a few highlights from young guys like McVee and JVR. On the whole we haven’t gotten better, and we’re lacking confidence across the team. Nobody would just finish the job today, they all wanted to give it off. 

I think we are a finals side, but I think on current form not much more. It’s a shame, but it’s a tough competition and too many of our players haven’t improved enough to lift us further.

The thing is THBT, you and BDA have made very sensible posts just now. but people are shouting down these kinds of comments and wondering why we'd even dare bring up the fact that the team could have been just a slight bit overrated.

People can tell us to be positive and that's great, we are 7-4 but we've been poor on the road and just lost to a mid range team at the G. We've had our North, Hawthorn, West Coast bloopies and still have a very tough back end of the season. Another few losses and top 4 is a real stretch, if people want us to be happy about that then they can please themselves.

I agree on form right now we are about top 6 at best. Probably don't have that extra to challenge for top honours.

29 minutes ago, layzie said:

The thing is THBT, you and BDA have made very sensible posts just now. but people are shouting down these kinds of comments and wondering why we'd even dare bring up the fact that the team could have been just a slight bit overrated.

People can tell us to be positive and that's great, we are 7-4 but we've been poor on the road and just lost to a mid range team at the G. We've had our North, Hawthorn, West Coast bloopies and still have a very tough back end of the season. Another few losses and top 4 is a real stretch, if people want us to be happy about that then they can please themselves.

I agree on form right now we are about top 6 at best. Probably don't have that extra to challenge for top honours.

Is this a dig at me? If so, you’ve completely missed my point. If not, carry on (FWIW, agree with you, we are on form a bottom half of the 8 side at best right now).

5 hours ago, old dee said:

I think your line is coming unstuck TU. We are well and truely worked out. If the blues kick straight next week they will win easy. 

Which line? The one where I said you use the 2021 flag as a crutch for your pessimism when instead you should celebrate it?

The more we lose in 2023, the more I think I’m right about that. Enjoy what we did in 2021. It was unbelievable. 

In all honesty the ALFW and VFL premierships are nice to have but the fortunes of this great club rise and fall on the success of the men’s teams. We are a brainsnap / stubbornness away from turning this season around. For all of our so called coaching brainstrust, what can’t they see that the Pies are doing. Why do we continue to do what doesn’t work against quality opposition?

Thrarurrthoooooorst in this team is like my spelling!🫣

10 minutes ago, layzie said:

The thing is THBT, you and BDA have made very sensible posts just now. but people are shouting down these kinds of comments and wondering why we'd even dare bring up the fact that the team could have been just a slight bit overrated.

People can tell us to be positive and that's great, we are 7-4 but we've been poor on the road and just lost to a mid range team at the G. We've had our North, Hawthorn, West Coast bloopies and still have a very tough back end of the season. Another few losses and top 4 is a real stretch, if people want us to be happy about that then they can please themselves.

I agree on form right now we are about top 6 at best. Probably don't have that extra to challenge for top honours.

Here's the thing though.

It's all well and good to be frustrated. I thought we were pathetic today, but I find it easier to look at the bigger picture and history is an important reminder in AFL footy (and anything really).

We're top 4, with a softer draw coming up in the second half of the year, with less 8 point games than our other top 4 competitors. Many parts of our game are in good shape (our turnover game, our scoring sources), and others (stoppages) need some work.

The stoppages issue IMV has much scope for improvement when we start to throw our better mids through the contest more often, plus I'm sure we'll have some tactical tweaks too. So that's personnel and tactics that you don't necessarily want to show in the first ten rounds.

The history side of it however is more telling. Many supporters seem to have this expectation that having won 2021, we'd be winning flags over and over in the same way. We've had to change the way we're playing because the competition adapted to our intercept game in 2021. But no team in the modern era has gone through seasons like our 2021 season repeatedly. They've all had ups and downs.

It's very similar for Richmond's 4 year period, but let's look at the Hawthorn threepeat team as a prime example. 2013 was their 2021. They won 19 games and aside from their strong qualifying final win over Sydney, won their prelim and GF by a combined 4 goals. Their finals series that season was nothing like the dominance of ours in 2021. And maybe this, plus the fact they'd fallen after their 2008 flag, kept them hungry going into 2014.

But still, 2014 saw them finish second on 17 wins. To Round 10, they were 6 and 3 (there was a bye at Round 9). Those three losses were to Sydney (who finished above them in 1st), Geelong (who finished one place below them in 3rd) and 5th placed Port. Plus, they fell over the line to Essendon (who finished 7th) by 4 points in Round 2, and some of their wins were big wins over the likes of the new and young Suns, eventual wooden spooners St Kilda and struggling Brisbane who finished in the bottom 4. 

If that was our start, we'd have been saying all the same things. Oh, we can't beat the sides around us, our competitors, but we have no trouble beating up the lowly sides. We're flattrack bullies etc etc.

Their 2014 finals campaign was better than their 2013 finals series, winning two finals easily, but only won their prelim against Port on the MCG by 3 points. Again, nowhere near as good as our 2021 finals series.

Moving on to 2015, and this time, they finished 3rd on 16 wins. They went the first 10 rounds 6-4. To Round 10, they lost to Essendon (who would finish 4th bottom), Port (who would finish 9th), GWS (who finished 11th) and one of their main competitors Sydney (who finished 4th, one place below Hawthorn that year).

Meanwhile, they beat Geelong (who would miss the 8 that year), us (who were very ordinary in our second year under Roos - we finished 13th), the 16th placed Suns and the 14th placed St Kilda. 

Again, a season to Round 10, nothing to write home about. And their finals campaign in 2015 saw them lose their qualifying final and having to go the long way to win it.

Why did I bother with all this? Well, perspective is a funny thing. And it's bizarre how quickly we forget things. We've forgotten how powerful and abnormal our 2021 finals campaign was. Expecting us to replicate that was always folly.

As for it's all over by Round 10 or 11, well, history shows us that is simply not the case and that if you're in the hunt for the top 4 and injury-free come the last few rounds, that's the goal. Just because we're not the clear premiership standout by Round 10, doesn't mean we won't win it, because we know how that one goes, don't we Melbourne fans (*cough* 10-0 in 2022 *cough*).

1 minute ago, A F said:

Here's the thing though.

It's all well and good to be frustrated. I thought we were pathetic today, but I find it easier to look at the bigger picture and history is an important reminder in AFL footy (and anything really).

We're top 4, with a softer draw coming up in the second half of the year, with less 8 point games than our other top 4 competitors. Many parts of our game are in good shape (our turnover game, our scoring sources), and others (stoppages) need some work.

The stoppages issue IMV has much scope for improvement when we start to throw our better mids through the contest more often, plus I'm sure we'll have some tactical tweaks too. So that's personnel and tactics that you don't necessarily want to show in the first ten rounds.

The history side of it however is more telling. Many supporters seem to have this expectation that having won 2021, we'd be winning flags over and over in the same way. We've had to change the way we're playing because the competition adapted to our intercept game in 2021. But no team in the modern era has gone through seasons like our 2021 season repeatedly. They've all had ups and downs.

It's very similar for Richmond's 4 year period, but let's look at the Hawthorn threepeat team as a prime example. 2013 was their 2021. They won 19 games and aside from their strong qualifying final win over Sydney, won their prelim and GF by a combined 4 goals. Their finals series that season was nothing like the dominance of ours in 2021. And maybe this, plus the fact they'd fallen after their 2008 flag, kept them hungry going into 2014.

But still, 2014 saw them finish second on 17 wins. To Round 10, they were 6 and 3 (there was a bye at Round 9). Those three losses were to Sydney (who finished above them in 1st), Geelong (who finished one place below them in 3rd) and 5th placed Port. Plus, they fell over the line to Essendon (who finished 7th) by 4 points in Round 2, and some of their wins were big wins over the likes of the new and young Suns, eventual wooden spooners St Kilda and struggling Brisbane who finished in the bottom 4. 

If that was our start, we'd have been saying all the same things. Oh, we can't beat the sides around us, our competitors, but we have no trouble beating up the lowly sides. We're flattrack bullies etc etc.

Their 2014 finals campaign was better than their 2013 finals series, winning two finals easily, but only won their prelim against Port on the MCG by 3 points. Again, nowhere near as good as our 2021 finals series.

Moving on to 2015, and this time, they finished 3rd on 16 wins. They went the first 10 rounds 6-4. To Round 10, they lost to Essendon (who would finish 4th bottom), Port (who would finish 9th), GWS (who finished 11th) and one of their main competitors Sydney (who finished 4th, one place below Hawthorn that year).

Meanwhile, they beat Geelong (who would miss the 8 that year), us (who were very ordinary in our second year under Roos - we finished 13th), the 16th placed Suns and the 14th placed St Kilda. 

Again, a season to Round 10, nothing to write home about. And their finals campaign in 2015 saw them lose their qualifying final and having to go the long way to win it.

Why did I bother with all this? Well, perspective is a funny thing. And it's bizarre how quickly we forget things. We've forgotten how powerful and abnormal our 2021 finals campaign was. Expecting us to replicate that was always folly.

As for it's all over by Round 10 or 11, well, history shows us that is simply not the case and that if you're in the hunt for the top 4 and injury-free come the last few rounds, that's the goal. Just because we're not the clear premiership standout by Round 10, doesn't mean we won't win it, because we know how that one goes, don't we Melbourne fans (*cough* 10-0 in 2022 *cough*).

Post of the night for me AF.

The bigger picture is important you are right, I'm certainly not giving up on the second half of the season. 

These flags are hard to win, everyone knows it. Its very hard to evolve the game style. Our coaches have got the massive challenge of overcoming the challenges.

We get another chance, I really hope we can come home with a wet sail but there are a few things that need to change.

6 minutes ago, A F said:

Here's the thing though.

It's all well and good to be frustrated. I thought we were pathetic today, but I find it easier to look at the bigger picture and history is an important reminder in AFL footy (and anything really).

We're top 4, with a softer draw coming up in the second half of the year, with less 8 point games than our other top 4 competitors. Many parts of our game are in good shape (our turnover game, our scoring sources), and others (stoppages) need some work.

The stoppages issue IMV has much scope for improvement when we start to throw our better mids through the contest more often, plus I'm sure we'll have some tactical tweaks too. So that's personnel and tactics that you don't necessarily want to show in the first ten rounds.

The history side of it however is more telling. Many supporters seem to have this expectation that having won 2021, we'd be winning flags over and over in the same way. We've had to change the way we're playing because the competition adapted to our intercept game in 2021. But no team in the modern era has gone through seasons like our 2021 season repeatedly. They've all had ups and downs.

It's very similar for Richmond's 4 year period, but let's look at the Hawthorn threepeat team as a prime example. 2013 was their 2021. They won 19 games and aside from their strong qualifying final win over Sydney, won their prelim and GF by a combined 4 goals. Their finals series that season was nothing like the dominance of ours in 2021. And maybe this, plus the fact they'd fallen after their 2008 flag, kept them hungry going into 2014.

But still, 2014 saw them finish second on 17 wins. To Round 10, they were 6 and 3 (there was a bye at Round 9). Those three losses were to Sydney (who finished above them in 1st), Geelong (who finished one place below them in 3rd) and 5th placed Port. Plus, they fell over the line to Essendon (who finished 7th) by 4 points in Round 2, and some of their wins were big wins over the likes of the new and young Suns, eventual wooden spooners St Kilda and struggling Brisbane who finished in the bottom 4. 

If that was our start, we'd have been saying all the same things. Oh, we can't beat the sides around us, our competitors, but we have no trouble beating up the lowly sides. We're flattrack bullies etc etc.

Their 2014 finals campaign was better than their 2013 finals series, winning two finals easily, but only won their prelim against Port on the MCG by 3 points. Again, nowhere near as good as our 2021 finals series.

Moving on to 2015, and this time, they finished 3rd on 16 wins. They went the first 10 rounds 6-4. To Round 10, they lost to Essendon (who would finish 4th bottom), Port (who would finish 9th), GWS (who finished 11th) and one of their main competitors Sydney (who finished 4th, one place below Hawthorn that year).

Meanwhile, they beat Geelong (who would miss the 8 that year), us (who were very ordinary in our second year under Roos - we finished 13th), the 16th placed Suns and the 14th placed St Kilda. 

Again, a season to Round 10, nothing to write home about. And their finals campaign in 2015 saw them lose their qualifying final and having to go the long way to win it.

Why did I bother with all this? Well, perspective is a funny thing. And it's bizarre how quickly we forget things. We've forgotten how powerful and abnormal our 2021 finals campaign was. Expecting us to replicate that was always folly.

As for it's all over by Round 10 or 11, well, history shows us that is simply not the case and that if you're in the hunt for the top 4 and injury-free come the last few rounds, that's the goal. Just because we're not the clear premiership standout by Round 10, doesn't mean we won't win it, because we know how that one goes, don't we Melbourne fans (*cough* 10-0 in 2022 *cough*).

I heard that we have the toughest 2nd half fixture based on the current top 8

6 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

I heard that we have the toughest 2nd half fixture based on the current top 8

We only play 2 current top 8 sides after the bye - Brisbane at the G and the Saints. 
Of course we also need to play Adelaide, GWS and Sydney and they are by no means given wins. 
But we also play North and Hawks again. 

There are a number of players who were too easily beaten in 1 v 1 battles today against mediocre opposition.

Some were that ordinary even Goody shouldn't be putting his complete faith/trust in them from here, let alone us fans on the sidelines.

Some will no doubt work their way back into form but need a spell at Casey, where they should not get another call up unless they do.

Others had their 'jump the shark' match today however and appear to be on a slippery slope down.  Possibly close to being out for the count 

Replacements needed from here when others genuinly earn a call up at Casey.

Recruiting required at years end to bring in further talent and fill in some of the missing holes.

18 minutes ago, layzie said:

Post of the night for me AF.

The bigger picture is important you are right, I'm certainly not giving up on the second half of the season. 

These flags are hard to win, everyone knows it. Its very hard to evolve the game style. Our coaches have got the massive challenge of overcoming the challenges.

We get another chance, I really hope we can come home with a wet sail but there are a few things that need to change.

Agreed. 👍

51 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

We only play 2 current top 8 sides after the bye - Brisbane at the G and the Saints. 
Of course we also need to play Adelaide, GWS and Sydney and they are by no means given wins. 
But we also play North and Hawks again. 

Perhaps it was the remaining fixture, but definitely heard something about us having the hardest fixture.

we will be fine

6 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Perhaps it was the remaining fixture, but definitely heard something about us having the hardest fixture.

Yes I heard that too.

On “The Couch” they mentioned we have the hardest draw from round 11 onwards and Essendon have the easiest.

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Yes I heard that too.

On “The Couch” they mentioned we have the hardest draw from round 11 onwards and Essendon have the easiest.

From Round 11, we have 6 games against the current top 11 (but only 3 against current top 8 sides), and 6 games against the current bottom 7. 

It’s possible that’s the hardest draw but that would surprise me. 

Certainly though, other sides must have worse travel fixtures than us. 

3 hours ago, FritschyBusiness said:

we will be fine

Agree.

At least there isn't as much travel in the back end. That was a killer last year.

10 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Is this a dig at me? If so, you’ve completely missed my point. If not, carry on (FWIW, agree with you, we are on form a bottom half of the 8 side at best right now).

Which line? The one where I said you use the 2021 flag as a crutch for your pessimism when instead you should celebrate it?

The more we lose in 2023, the more I think I’m right about that. Enjoy what we did in 2021. It was unbelievable. 

I sure did, sadly any thoughts of a repeat are fading fast. 

22 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

From Round 11, we have 6 games against the current top 11 (but only 3 against current top 8 sides), and 6 games against the current bottom 7. 

It’s possible that’s the hardest draw but that would surprise me. 

Certainly though, other sides must have worse travel fixtures than us. 

I've been thinking about the travel requirements of interstate clubs and the advantages of home crowds.

I said home crowds rather than home games because I think there is a big difference.  Last week against Power at their HG it was a full house in a small ground. I think the players and umps hear a lot more noise than our HG.

We lose advantage at the G because it's a 100k ground and we sometimes don't fill a quarter of it. The noise factor isn't there. Also there are more supporters of interstate sides living in Melbourne than Dees fans in Pert or Adelaide.

Also, interstate sides are more familiar playing at the G than we are at Gabba or Optus eg.

Just saying.

9 hours ago, A F said:

Here's the thing though.

It's all well and good to be frustrated. I thought we were pathetic today, but I find it easier to look at the bigger picture and history is an important reminder in AFL footy (and anything really).

We're top 4, with a softer draw coming up in the second half of the year, with less 8 point games than our other top 4 competitors. Many parts of our game are in good shape (our turnover game, our scoring sources), and others (stoppages) need some work.

The stoppages issue IMV has much scope for improvement when we start to throw our better mids through the contest more often, plus I'm sure we'll have some tactical tweaks too. So that's personnel and tactics that you don't necessarily want to show in the first ten rounds.

The history side of it however is more telling. Many supporters seem to have this expectation that having won 2021, we'd be winning flags over and over in the same way. We've had to change the way we're playing because the competition adapted to our intercept game in 2021. But no team in the modern era has gone through seasons like our 2021 season repeatedly. They've all had ups and downs.

It's very similar for Richmond's 4 year period, but let's look at the Hawthorn threepeat team as a prime example. 2013 was their 2021. They won 19 games and aside from their strong qualifying final win over Sydney, won their prelim and GF by a combined 4 goals. Their finals series that season was nothing like the dominance of ours in 2021. And maybe this, plus the fact they'd fallen after their 2008 flag, kept them hungry going into 2014.

But still, 2014 saw them finish second on 17 wins. To Round 10, they were 6 and 3 (there was a bye at Round 9). Those three losses were to Sydney (who finished above them in 1st), Geelong (who finished one place below them in 3rd) and 5th placed Port. Plus, they fell over the line to Essendon (who finished 7th) by 4 points in Round 2, and some of their wins were big wins over the likes of the new and young Suns, eventual wooden spooners St Kilda and struggling Brisbane who finished in the bottom 4. 

If that was our start, we'd have been saying all the same things. Oh, we can't beat the sides around us, our competitors, but we have no trouble beating up the lowly sides. We're flattrack bullies etc etc.

Their 2014 finals campaign was better than their 2013 finals series, winning two finals easily, but only won their prelim against Port on the MCG by 3 points. Again, nowhere near as good as our 2021 finals series.

Moving on to 2015, and this time, they finished 3rd on 16 wins. They went the first 10 rounds 6-4. To Round 10, they lost to Essendon (who would finish 4th bottom), Port (who would finish 9th), GWS (who finished 11th) and one of their main competitors Sydney (who finished 4th, one place below Hawthorn that year).

Meanwhile, they beat Geelong (who would miss the 8 that year), us (who were very ordinary in our second year under Roos - we finished 13th), the 16th placed Suns and the 14th placed St Kilda. 

Again, a season to Round 10, nothing to write home about. And their finals campaign in 2015 saw them lose their qualifying final and having to go the long way to win it.

Why did I bother with all this? Well, perspective is a funny thing. And it's bizarre how quickly we forget things. We've forgotten how powerful and abnormal our 2021 finals campaign was. Expecting us to replicate that was always folly.

As for it's all over by Round 10 or 11, well, history shows us that is simply not the case and that if you're in the hunt for the top 4 and injury-free come the last few rounds, that's the goal. Just because we're not the clear premiership standout by Round 10, doesn't mean we won't win it, because we know how that one goes, don't we Melbourne fans (*cough* 10-0 in 2022 *cough*).

Thanks AF, you summarised alot of the recient history I was trying to recall as well.

Was it the break through 2017 premiership year that Richmond supporters were microwaving membership cards? 

If you go back even earlier to the dominant talent rich Geelong sides era 2007+, they didn't get everything on there own terms either.

We're not doing things as easy/dominant as we'd like, but we are definitely more disiplined and regularly competing better than any MFC team since 1964, so I don't think there's much more that we can ask than that.  Ask any AFL premiership coach and they'll all say how bloody hard they are to win and also require some extent of good fortune as well.

All the bed wetters decrying our 'pathetic' performances of late need to get a grip and are just showing their own lack of football IQ.

23 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree.

Hmm binman can you tell me your definition of "fine". Serious question.