Midfield ?

[picket fence 17,146]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:34 AM, Kent said:

So is Petracca injured? We are playing injured players again like last year Wow!!! 

Viney was managed out of the contest by Drew good coaching

Brayshaw is a HBF not a midfielder

Kossie is a small forward not a midfielder

S May you can kick out to the other side if you want So predictable

Max You got worked over by better coaching

Harmes should have played TMAc shouldn't have played

T Mac is cooked! His 2 goals from 8 or so possesions were lucky. His mobility is non existent!

[Rednblueriseing 824]

Our midfield is unstoppable when the balls going our way, however we rely on too few we should have rotated Harmes JJ, Dunstan into the team more not just as subs give them a fair run, along with Gus Kossi, and Rivers there is enough variety, we just don't use it enough.

We will wear out our guns trying to stay in top 4 than have nothing left for finals 

[Swooper1987 3,322]

12 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

You just have to look at our past few weeks to see something up with a midfield defence.

- Noah Anderson 3 votes Best game of his life.

- Butter 3 votes Best game of his life

- Will Ashcroft 2nd AFL game - Rising star nom nom.

And we supposedly have the best midfield in the AFL. 
 

You just know that Daicos will be the first player to get 50 touches in the modern era. 

This is the issue.  It's the number of possessions and quality of them that hurt us.  We have zero capacity to limit opposition mids either through design or lack of options.  Merrett blew us apart and the other Bomber mids had a field day; Brisbane collectively torched us; Anderson and Rowell were dominant (and that was without Miller); we all saw the collective efforts of the Port brigade.  We are bereft at shutting down a dominant opposition, or too arrogant with our belief that our guys will just get it done.  Unless we find a way to shut down a dominant opposing mid this will continue to happen.

[Kent 2,909]

24 minutes ago, Rednblueriseing said:

Our midfield is unstoppable when the balls going our way, however we rely on too few we should have rotated Harmes JJ, Dunstan into the team more not just as subs give them a fair run, along with Gus Kossi, and Rivers there is enough variety, we just don't use it enough.

We will wear out our guns trying to stay in top 4 than have nothing left for finals 

Exactly what we did last year This coaching group dont seem to learn

YOU CANNOT GO THROUGH THE WHOLE SEASON WITH YOUR MIDFIELD PLAYING EVERY GAME 

THEY NEED TO REST

[loges 6,767]

18 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

This is the issue.  It's the number of possessions and quality of them that hurt us.  We have zero capacity to limit opposition mids either through design or lack of options.  Merrett blew us apart and the other Bomber mids had a field day; Brisbane collectively torched us; Anderson and Rowell were dominant (and that was without Miller); we all saw the collective efforts of the Port brigade.  We are bereft at shutting down a dominant opposition, or too arrogant with our belief that our guys will just get it done.  Unless we find a way to shut down a dominant opposing mid this will continue to happen.

Part of the problem is we don't try to shut them down 

[Tony Tea 2,809]

On 5/20/2023 at 8:02 AM, dazzledavey36 said:

I know it'll never happen but I'd like to see us throw Bowey through the midfield.

Yes. He's our best user, and he's one touch.

[Roost it far 8,263]

44 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

This is the issue.  It's the number of possessions and quality of them that hurt us.  We have zero capacity to limit opposition mids either through design or lack of options.  Merrett blew us apart and the other Bomber mids had a field day; Brisbane collectively torched us; Anderson and Rowell were dominant (and that was without Miller); we all saw the collective efforts of the Port brigade.  We are bereft at shutting down a dominant opposition, or too arrogant with our belief that our guys will just get it done.  Unless we find a way to shut down a dominant opposing mid this will continue to happen.

Both Viney and Harmes are excellent shut down players. We're coached like we're the best. That's no longer true. We need to negate the best (Anderson, Butters, Cripps, Daicos....) Just get them shutdown and work around that. It doesn't make sense allowing the opposition a soft outlet around the ball. It staggers me Goodwin and co still act like it's the back end of 21. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Roost it far

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

1 hour ago, Swooper1987 said:

Unless we find a way to shut down a dominant opposing mid this will continue to happen.

Listening to Sanderson on SEN (who's been around the traps a fair bit and recently coached also) he says Coaches are generally reluctant to go for shut down option/s much of the time at the Center Bounces (CBs or 666).

We witnessed this against Port with Butters & Rozzee allowed to run amok.

So most of the time (but not always ...see below) they're pretty much pitting their best midfield set up against others, looking to get first use and then clearance out at CBs.

Personally i think Port did decide to curtail at least one of ours, by putting a cooler on Viney (smart move).  Not sure why we didn't try and curtail Rozee after half time.  Strange stuff from the coaches box.

Now if your midfield's purring along, as ours once was, we get first use more often and things just keep bubbling along and no one pays it much attention other than how well the 'stars' are going and how good it is!  Pretty shallow stuff other than the odd deep dive on the Couch or Sunday Footy Show.

So what's happened to our / other mid set ups at CBs since 2021 flag?

1.  Others have added and improved.  GC, Port, Pies, even the Hawks to a lessor degree with Newcomb & Day.  No doubt others as well.

2.  We've added Grundy.  Grundy"s ok to sometimes VG at CB.  However, anytime he's taking that bounce it means Max isn't in there.  That's all well when Max is injured, coming back from injury on the mend or just needs a chop out. However, with a fully fit firing Max,  Max is easily the best tap / CB ruck going around when he's unhampered fitness wise.  Great to have Grundy, real handy & allows Max to go forward but... you aren't going to get the same success /  results at 666 with Grundy as you are with Max.

2.  We usually have two main extractors (Viney & Clarry) and a part timer in Max at CB.  Not just extraction ...also tackles / taking tackles in order to hold up proceedings so the oppo doesn't get first use so often.

In the last few matches that's been left (mostly) to only Max & Viney and they  both had an off game against Port.  I suspect this wasn't per chance as they would've watched the vision against the Hawks and saw that most of the extracting was from these two so lets try and cool their influence here?  That's pure speculation and im only an amature looking in from afar so potentially a complete load of bunkem but you never know.

As to what's happened to Clarry at 666, easily best of all three when he's on song and possibly the best in the AFL... i have no idea.  But the last few weeks or so, for whatever reason, at CBs we have not seen much of Clarry the super extractor.  Occasionally yes, but not as prolific as usual IMHO.

Fix this part and get him back to being one of the AFL kings here and we probably go back to our best pretty quickly i reckon!  Viney can't do most of the extracting alone against the best with side assists from Max and occasionally Grundy.  Not week in & out anyway.  Some weeks it might come off.

The strange thing is Clarry is still going great extraction wise at around the ground stoppages.  So i don't get why it's dropped away at CBA.  Having said that, it's certainly not panic stations either as it's only been a few weeks and i could also be totally barking up the wrong tree!

Maybe the coaches were asking this (first use extraction at CBs) from others of late like JJ & Sparrow (alongside Viney & Max) and Clarry's just lost the instinct to jump in a little (for now) and will just need to get back on the bike.

And this may be all it is plus also getting Max back to full match fitness & some really good form (through the middle).  Remember that the Port match was the first time since coming back from iniury that the FD asked a whole heap more from Maxy at CBs.

I dont know the exact numbers but the week before against the Hawks he was only at CBs 32% of the time and this went up to around 55% or so vs Port?

He might need another two or three matches at 50% - 60% CBA in order to come up to speed / full fitness here?

There are also other positives... it isn't all gloom

Apart from Port, Viney's been in ripping form

Tracc's having a superb year and still a force for clearances at CBs as a receiver.

Get Clarry really fresh, full tilt fit and back on the extraxtion / first use bike at CBs and we might just be an unstoppable force again, even against the best.

However, i also think we lack speed in the middle.  Someone who can get on the end of an extraction burst out and off with silky ball use into the 50.  Will probably need to recruit this.  I can't see it coming from the present list.  Tracc does offer an option here but it's more power than speed over the first 10 or so.  Maybe Taj next year if he comes on nicely?

Edited May 21, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[jnrmac 20,060]

On 5/19/2023 at 10:44 PM, adonski said:

Too ploddy at centre bounces without both Trac & Clarry in there at all time

Don't think Tracc had a CBA in the first half. He was the catalyst for our 3rd qtr run though in the middle

It has bothered me for some time that Clarry spends way too much time wrestling with opponents at the Centre bounces. Great player that I love to watch but its a part of his game that frustrates the hell out of me 

[jnrmac 20,060]

13 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

You just have to look at our past few weeks to see something up with a midfield defence.

- Noah Anderson 3 votes Best game of his life.

- Butter 3 votes Best game of his life

- Will Ashcroft 2nd AFL game - Rising star nom nom.

And we supposedly have the best midfield in the AFL. 
 

You just know that Daicos will be the first player to get 50 touches in the modern era. 

Its a given. We learn nothing.

 

Could have added Essendon game Merret 35 touches. Parish 34, Shiel 28

Edited May 21, 2023 by jnrmac

[titan_uranus 25,014]

Just now, jnrmac said:

Don't think Tracc had a CBA in the first half. He was the catalyst for our 3rd qtr run though in the middle

It has bothered me for some time that Clarry spends way too much time wrestling with opponents at the Centre bounces. Great player that I love to watch but its a part of his game that frustrates the hell out of me 

Trac had 2 CBAs in each of the first two quarters (2/4 in Q1, 2/4 in Q2). Then 5 in each of the last two quarters (5/9 in Q3 and 5/5 in Q4). 

I wonder whether his ankle impacted his ability to play consistent midfield.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

Thought Gus let himself down when he was in the middle for someone screaming out for more midfield time. He may get another chance if Clarrie doesn't get up but he will need to be far better than what he displayed in the guts on Friday.

[SPC 3,549]

16 minutes ago, Hellaintabadplacetobe said:

Thought Gus let himself down when he was in the middle for someone screaming out for more midfield time. He may get another chance if Clarrie doesn't get up but he will need to be far better than what he displayed in the guts on Friday.

Gus is not the answer to our problems- he is not dynamic. Like others I think Rivers needs more midfield time, especially now that Salem is back. Bowey, Sparrow and Koz are our best 3rd rotation option. I don’t like Viney and Oliver in the same centre square setup. 
We will certainly need to improve in this area in the draft. Need 2 taller, inside/outside mids with pace and ball use. We could have addressed this in the 2021 draft, but went a bit smaller in Bowey and Laurie (Bowey is a find, but more half back). They are not the right size for extended clearance minutes.

[Roost it far 8,263]

With Oliver likely out with a hamstring Sparrow will need to play his role and Trac will need to spend more time in the middle. I really hope his foot/ankle is fully healed as he's in for a big few weeks. It actually might make us a little unpredictable with Oliver out. If Max, Trac, Viney and Sparrow can get the job done next week I'll be happy. It's still the forward half that worries me.

[1858 285]

8 hours ago, Kent said:

Exactly what we did last year This coaching group dont seem to learn

YOU CANNOT GO THROUGH THE WHOLE SEASON WITH YOUR MIDFIELD PLAYING EVERY GAME 

THEY NEED TO REST

This.

Gotta feel sorry for them because they play their hearts out every bloody week for this team whilst they slowly get grinded into the ground.

The secondary issue is depth and it's going to catch up with us very soon.

Now, Dunstan is a candidate for a call up next week but the bloke has hardly played a senior game in 2yrs. He'll get done by the pace of senior footy as well as a lack of real match practice of playing with Petracca, Viney & Gawn. He'll get hung out to dry and it's all due to those dopey bastards in the FD.

Brayshaw (currently) is not mid standard, Sparrow tries but cant make an impact. Jordan needs work and isn't quite fit for purpose.

I also wonder which youngsters we have in the wings who are genuine mid material. Last few drafts have been a bit underwhelming.

Meanwhile Collingwood can rotate about 7 top mids.

We're looking into the midfield abyss over the next few years.

[whatwhat say what 22,746]

8 minutes ago, 1858 said:

This.

Gotta feel sorry for them because they play their hearts out every bloody week for this team whilst they slowly get grinded into the ground.

The secondary issue is depth and it's going to catch up with us very soon.

Now, Dunstan is a candidate for a call up next week but the bloke has hardly played a senior game in 2yrs. He'll get done by the pace of senior footy as well as a lack of real match practice of playing with Petracca, Viney & Gawn. He'll get hung out to dry and it's all due to those dopey bastards in the FD.

Brayshaw (currently) is not mid standard, Sparrow tries but cant make an impact. Jordan needs work and isn't quite fit for purpose.

I also wonder which youngsters we have in the wings who are genuine mid material. Last few drafts have been a bit underwhelming.

Meanwhile Collingwood can rotate about 7 top mids.

We're looking into the midfield abyss over the next few years.

do you pay attention to our injury list? dunstan is out injured and will be for several weeks yet

filth rotate five inside mids - de goey, adams, titchell, pendlebury / naicos - and the majority of their damage is done on the outside of the contest with sidebottom jaicos, naicos / pendlebury, noble

[1858 285]

1 minute ago, whatwhat say what said:

do you pay attention to our injury list? dunstan is out injured and will be for several weeks yet

filth rotate five inside mids - de goey, adams, titchell, pendlebury / naicos - and the majority of their damage is done on the outside of the contest with sidebottom jaicos, naicos / pendlebury, noble

I knew Dunstan was injured this week (wasnt sure how long though) but really, this week, week after it doesnt matter the point still stands.

Re: Pies, if they copped injuries they have genuine options to swing quality players inside or out on gameday as well as week to week management. We arent in the same situation.

[Roost it far 8,263]

4 minutes ago, 1858 said:

I knew Dunstan was injured this week (wasnt sure how long though) but really, this week, week after it doesnt matter the point still stands.

Re: Pies, if they copped injuries they have genuine options to swing quality players inside or out on gameday as well as week to week management. We arent in the same situation.

Rubbish, if the Pies lose DeGoey or Daicos or Moore they have issues just like every other team 

[1858 285]

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

Rubbish, if the Pies lose DeGoey or Daicos or Moore they have issues just like every other team 

Moore rotates midfield does he? FMD

Pies could handle losing a mid easily, they did quite well without Adams who you conveniently missed. It doesn't mean those players you listed arent good it means they have more good options for cover. That's the point.

[jacey 333]

9 hours ago, Kent said:

Exactly what we did last year This coaching group dont seem to learn

YOU CANNOT GO THROUGH THE WHOLE SEASON WITH YOUR MIDFIELD PLAYING EVERY GAME 

THEY NEED TO REST

Petracca and Clayton Oliver have played less midfield this year than last year and 2021. There's a considerable effort this year to run more numbers through the midfield and  we are getting mixed results. 

So which do you want?

Seems like people are complaining we don't have 4 or 5 petraccas and Olivers. 

 

[Demon Disciple 12,122]

2 hours ago, jacey said:

Seems like people are complaining we don't have 4 or 5 petraccas and Olivers. 

Not having 4 to 5 Petraccas/Oliver’s is not the issue. It’s the gap in quality between these 2 to the rest on our list. Our midfield quality is very shallow. So much so that when Clarry and Trac aren’t firing, we’re in big trouble (this is further exacerbated by our very poor ruck-mid connection).

Forget the draft, we need to bring in quality midfield talent now. If that means letting the likes of Harmes, Brayshaw, Sparrow, ANB and JJ go, then so be it.

Surely the likes of Tim Kelly, Whitfield, Greene & Green from WCE & GWS want some onfield success? Go after them.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Demon Disciple

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,938]

Our problem is we have too much of the same, one paced contested ball winning bulls who aren’t winning the contested ball and when they do there is no connection with the forward line they just blindly bomb it in. There is no balance in our midfield or depth of midfield just more one paced contested ball winning players.Where is the speed and silk. We have 2 All Australian ruckman that should be providing silver service and we are not getting bang for our buck in the midfield, this group should be better but at the moment they are not.

[Roost it far 8,263]

25 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

Not having 4 to 5 Petraccas/Oliver’s is not the issue. It’s the gap in quality between these 2 to the rest on our list. Our midfield quality is very shallow. So much so that when Clarry and Trac aren’t firing, we’re in big trouble (this is further exacerbated by our very poor ruck-mid connection).

Forget the draft, we need to bring in quality midfield talent now. If that means letting the likes of Harmes, Brayshaw, Sparrow, ANB and JJ go, then so be it.

Surely the likes of Tim Kelly, Whitfield, Greene & Green from WCE & GWS want some onfield success? Go after them.

Absolutely should be chasing some outside run. Whitfield would be a good start, surely he wants out?

[whatwhat say what 22,746]

1 hour ago, Roost it far said:

Absolutely should be chasing some outside run. Whitfield would be a good start, surely he wants out?

rumoured to be on $1m a year; we won't be able to afford him in our salary cap structure

i still think our best bet is to trade out of the next two drafts and bring in one high class selection and back our football dept to get them up to afl levels quickly

apparently not a deep draft for mids this year tho, so...

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

 I’m not sure whether anyone watched FoxFootys First Crack tonight. 
 

I don’t have a trained eye to pick up certain oppo strategies when we play, but under the eye of the First Crack team there was some pretty damning evidence on our midfield stoppage and post clearance structure  / work rate.

This particular clip really showed the specifics on why our midfield defence was really off. Basically Clayton was a bee to a honey pot and his man would run off him post clearance and setup a scoring chain. It was brutal to see it unfold the way it did time and time again - really 2018 like. I guarantee you’d see it for others as well. 
Lastly, Rozees goal in the dying minutes - take a guess who his opponent was.

For a team that prides itself of defence, our midfield was way way off. It was both coaching (not hard to tell Clarry to tighten up on his opponent at any of the quarter breaks) but also execution as well - getting sucked into the contest while his opponent stays on the outside… Port already had a HB or HF press up into the contest to create a turnover or at worst create another stoppage. 

These are small, fixable things but seeing it on Sunday night footy analysis shows are too late. Why isn’t our coaching panel able to react to this? Why can’t we exploit a Port vulnerability?

The coaching panel got a lot of credits for ‘21, they used some Of that last year and the injuries etc took their toll, which is fair enough - but they are really getting towelled up by the more experienced coach’s. Theres something about Goody being on the bench and Yze in the box during the game that just doesn’t feel right ? Very difficult to see these things at ground level so there has to be a bit of reliance on Yze. If this season goes down the sink, then I’d be seriously looking to change this up.