Jolly & Simmonds vs White & Jamar

[Lord Travis 10,749]

He has height which is valuable considering we are clearly lacking in height and he rucked possibly better than Jeff White on Sunday

He has been rucking better than White for a good year now. Anyone who doesn't see that isn't watching. He doesn't do enough around the ground, but he has some pretty good ruckwork. He was in really good rucking form before he got injured late last year. I seem to recall numerous instances where he he fed off clean taps to Mclean, Mcdonald and Jones. White is serviceable in the ruck now. Lost his leap, his touch, and the ruckman around him are all taller than they were a few years ago when he dominated. He has been a great player for the MFC, and we are now seeing the struggle of what it's like not having a consistently good ruckman. We've had Stynes and White for years, and now have no heir apparent. Do we trade to get one? Draft one? Or go with an average ruck division in the future and hope our up and coming midfielders will dominate regardless?

[Gorgoroth 12,976]

jamar shows great rucking and forard presence at sandy but cannot (or has not so far) made any at AFL level

[Rogue 585]

The thought process behind trading Simmo was sound and what received as part of the trade was adequate. It was just unfortunate that Ellis got injured and Aaron Rogers didn't end up making it.

I don't agree - I thought recruiting Ellis was a mistake at the time.

RE: Aaron Rogers, I guess these things happen. Sydney picked him up so I assume it wasn't just MFC that saw something in him.

[brey9186 102]

we are the only team in the the AFL without a 200cm or over player on the list

[Rogue 585]

we are the only team in the the AFL without a 200cm or over player on the list

I thought we had one guy at 200cm? Anyhow that's totally irrelevant I totally agree with your point.

I made a thread mentioning this, and also posted up the height of the various rucks for each team.

I was pretty surprised we didn't rookie a tall kid, as then we're not giving up our draft picks on what seems to be a risky proposition - and many rucks have entered AFL via the rookie list anyhow, probably as they take a while to develop.

[McLean Machine 0]

Clearly it says at the bottom of my name "rookie" what do u think that means? Im sorry but I do not appreciate Melbourne fans or any other fans attacking our players

I am not one that likes to bag players either its just that Jeff White has really annoyed me this year he has'nt influenced games enough for a man of his size. l was at training on thursday watching him, he is a big boy. He needs to get more contested posesions and drop back in front of the opposition full forward instead of getting cheap kicks 15m to the side of his team mate. l know he goes out each week and tries l just think he can do more.

[Jaded No More 68,969]

we are the only team in the the AFL without a 200cm or over player on the list

I have a friend who is 203cm. Can't play footy, but we should definitely recruit him.

I think you should name the 200cm+ players who are actually any good. No point drafting tall players just because they are tall. Give me a shorter ruckman who can actually play, over a bean-pole who does nothing (Van Sheik ring a bell?).

The obsession with freakishly tall ruckman is foolish. It's not about how big they are, it's about how effective they are. The two are totally unrelated.

[kieranbj 111]

Going in 2002 something had to be done. Ingerson had retired in the middle of 2001. Nicholson was starting to play well at FB but we needed something else. A decision had been made that Neitz would play forward. Simmonds had been tried at CHB late 2001 with no success.

The decisions to look for a ready made CHB was sound. Bizzel and Ellis the results. Ellis looked good pre-knee and luckily Chris Lamb came from nowhere to play very well in the second half of 2002 to take over from the tremendous early 2002 form of Nicholson.

Aaron Rogers is one of my bigger misreadings . I really liked him, thought he was the heir to Neita. He led superably and kicked well. Great height and very quick. He struggled in the blustery narrow TBO were the skills kicking to the lead we never strong but I thought that with AFL players drilling it down his throat he would be dangerous. Seems I was wrong and so was Roos because he did little up in Sydney and is now playing well in the SANFL I think.

[Choko 493]

I have a friend who is 203cm. Can't play footy, but we should definitely recruit him.

I think you should name the 200cm+ players who are actually any good. No point drafting tall players just because they are tall. Give me a shorter ruckman who can actually play, over a bean-pole who does nothing (Van Sheik ring a bell?).

The obsession with freakishly tall ruckman is foolish. It's not about how big they are, it's about how effective they are. The two are totally unrelated.

Not true. They are certainly not totally unrelated. Since the new centre circle rule took running leaping ruckmen out of the game, Jeff White has had reduced impact. The big winners are the bigger players. Also, the in the back rule helps the bigger ruckmen who can plant themselves in the goal square. The 2 best ruckmen in the league are probably the 2 from the west, both over 200cms. Players like Darcy, Goodes, only do limited ruckmen because height wins. That's how Peter Street sometimes gets a game. I think one of the reasons you can't name too many is because they take quite a few years to come on (look at Hamish McIntosh), and the new centre circle rule only came into play in the past 5 or so years.

I agree, a better player over a taller player, but height is definitely related in this day and age.

[Jarka 767]

Jolly was traded not cos we wanted too but he was going to leave and we'd have got nothing.

Jamar a great ruckman??

Jamar can be a great full forward player??

Have you seen any Melbourne games?

Actually, Jolly got traded because he wasn't given regular game time, it became even worse when we gave up pick 20 for Ben Holland. Any chance Jolly had of breaking into the team was lost and he rightfully realised he had to go to another club to play more games. He now has a premiership to his name....which kind of reminds me of Steven Armstrong.....

In reality it was our decision that he wanted to leave.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

Actually, Jolly got traded because he wasn't given regular game time, it became even worse when we gave up pick 20 for Ben Holland. Any chance Jolly had of breaking into the team was lost and he rightfully realised he had to go to another club to play more games. He now has a premiership to his name....which kind of reminds me of Steven Armstrong.....

In reality it was our decision that he wanted to leave.

Mate, anyone ever call you a corkscrew, as that's a bit of a way to twist what happened.

It was poor coaching that he asked to leave.

[Jaded No More 68,969]

Mate, anyone ever call you a corkscrew, as that's a bit of a way to twist what happened.

It was poor coaching that he asked to leave.

He was injured, which is why he didn't get a game.

How is that poor coaching? Did you expect Daniher to play him with an injured foot just so we can keep the super-star that is Jolly in the red & blue?

FFS people, get your stories straight before you get stuck into the footy department.

To recap:

-Thompson didn't leave due to lack of opportunities. He was our number one midfielder before he injured his foot.

-Woewodin didn't agree to take a significant pay-cut. We traded him because he didn't give us much choice.

-Jolly didn't play in 2004 because HE WAS INJURED (see point #1).

For Thompson we got Moloney. For Woewodin we got Bell (and to keep a number of other senior players, namely Robbo and Junior). For Jolly we got Dunn. With the exception of the Thompson trade (in which I believe we broke even), we came up clear winners.

People who think Jolly would have made any difference to our side, are kidding themselves. Whether it's White and Jolly, or White and Jamar, we still need to find ourselves another ruckman.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

He was injured, which is why he didn't get a game.

How is that poor coaching? Did you expect Daniher to play him with an injured foot just so we can keep the super-star that is Jolly in the red & blue?

FFS people, get your stories straight before you get stuck into the footy department.

I'm talking about when he played, isn't hard to work out from the coaching comment.

Why wasn't he developed in 2003 instead of him warming the bench while our ruckman risked his career playing on one leg. Our season was in the dumps yet we continued to play White and gave Jolly little developement.

That is bad coaching.

As to the other trade, nice try at a diversion.

[demon magik 0]

i believe jamar has showed not so much but he can take a mark in our forward line and he does attack the ball hard(something white doesn't do often enough)

IMO Jolly is better than white and jamar ..... just a bit undisciplined gives away to many free kicks

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Not true. They are certainly not totally unrelated. Since the new centre circle rule took running leaping ruckmen out of the game, Jeff White has had reduced impact. The big winners are the bigger players. Also, the in the back rule helps the bigger ruckmen who can plant themselves in the goal square. The 2 best ruckmen in the league are probably the 2 from the west, both over 200cms. Players like Darcy, Goodes, only do limited ruckmen because height wins. That's how Peter Street sometimes gets a game. I think one of the reasons you can't name too many is because they take quite a few years to come on (look at Hamish McIntosh), and the new centre circle rule only came into play in the past 5 or so years.

I agree, a better player over a taller player, but height is definitely related in this day and age.

Choko,

Jaded is on the money.

Ruckwork is more than just the centre circle restriction. And height does not always get you there. Ask Peter Senior at 211cm and he is useless there. Its also about having the ability to have an impact around the ground as well.

Cox and Sandliands are the two stand outs. Yet aside from Lade and possibly Biglands I cant name a seriously good tall ruckman.

White is the last of the 195cm ruckman around. The centre rule has cruelled him at the centre bounce. His effectiveness around the ground has fallen off and that where it is hurting us.

Sandilands has created a fixation with height as the panacea to ruck ills. Its helpful but on its own you have Peter Senior or Tristan Cartledge. If you dont have ability or mobility you are stuffed. And that the rub.

Its fine to say that the Club needs a good 200cm + ruckman. So does nearly everyone. They are as rare as hens teeth. Tall talent is risky with a long maturation without necessarily a pay out at the end. Many such efforts to recruit such talent was wasted so many early draft picks and left Clubs in tears. The risk with big man success is that most sides go through the rookie system.

We have had Jolly, Jamar, Van Sheck and Neaves through the rookie.

One is still try to justify the number 1 ruck spot, Jamar has stalled, Van Sheck...well he was 206cm and Neaves an unknown.

So rather than being "experts" with hindsight and developing flawed outcomes.

What should MFC do? Who would you get rid of out of the three ruckman on your list to bring Neaves and would you recruit an exprienced ruck from another club? You can rookie someone but they will take at least 4 years to produce. Any other solutions?

[occo 2]

IMO MFC in hind sight probably wish they should have kept either Simmonds or Jolly, both are better than Jamar and both have a lot more grunt than Jeff White. White is soft and wont put his head over the ball. We need a good tough ruckman.

These conversations are stupid because we have lost them and we cant help that now. I really rate Jolly and i dont hate it for him leaving due to lack of game time. I also rate Simmonds a lot...my best mates cousin and a very fair and good player...who can play forward and ruck. White has been better than both of these 2 and i hope people remember whites age and all the years he carried this team. He was arguably the best ruckman a few years back for 3 years in a row in my opinion but age and this centre square limitation has ruined him. Jamar...well i feel the same as everyone else however do remember he was a rookie and therefor will take a lot of time

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

It was poor coaching that he asked to leave.

No. Jolly wanted to be No 1 ruckman. In 2004 White was the AA ruckman. When White's fitness faltered toward the end of 2004, Jolly had his chance and his efforts were appalling such that he was dropped and finished the 2004 uear where a raw Jamar was chosen ahead of him. Jolly spat it and wanted a chance to be the No 1 ruckman elsewhere and had spat the dummy. So should MFC have held him for a further year and then let him walk for nothing or seek to get value for him.

Its not surprising that after giving their first round draft pick to MFC for Jolly, Sydney played him as second fiddle off the bench behind the underrated 34yo Jason Ball. OK Jolly has Flag medal. He watched the last crucial 15 minutes from the sidelines where a 34yo played first ruck and Jolly did a Motlop and got a gratuitous medal. Last year Ball was gone, Jolly and a clone, Doyle shared the ruckwork and Sydney got exposed a dished out another first round draft pick for another 34 yo ruckman.

Thats two coaches who have worked out something interesting about Jolly......Hmmm!

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

Its not surprising that after giving their first round draft pick to MFC for Jolly, Sydney played him as second fiddle off the bench behind the underrated 34yo Jason Ball. OK Jolly has Flag medal. He watched the last crucial 15 minutes from the sidelines where a 34yo played first ruck and Jolly did a Motlop and got a gratuitous medal. Last year Ball was gone, Jolly and a clone, Doyle shared the ruckwork and Sydney got exposed a dished out another first round draft pick for another 34 yo ruckman.

Thats two coaches who have worked out something interesting about Jolly......Hmmm!

Sydney gave a second rounder for Spider, but that's not very relevant.

I was happy with the Jolly trade and am not knocking it.

I am knocking ND for not throwing the gauntlet to him and giving him a lot more game time or even first ruck in 2003. A season that White was carrying an injury that could have ended his career.

Why not rest him and try get it right and challenge his back up?

It's probably a good thing he didn't as Jolly would have been exposed and we may not have got a first round pick, but regardless it was poor coaching and helped lead to Jolly getting disillusioned.

[Go the Biff 3,436]

No. Jolly wanted to be No 1 ruckman. In 2004 White was the AA ruckman. When White's fitness faltered toward the end of 2004, Jolly had his chance and his efforts were appalling such that he was dropped and finished the 2004 uear where a raw Jamar was chosen ahead of him. Jolly spat it and wanted a chance to be the No 1 ruckman elsewhere and had spat the dummy. So should MFC have held him for a further year and then let him walk for nothing or seek to get value for him.

True, true & true again. Our footy club may have made some blues but it annoys the hell out of me when posters use their version of this trade to whack the club over the head. Thanks Rhino, it amazes me how the circumstances of Jolly's departure are revised by those using 20/20 hindsight when assessing his value. Particularly that fella on the other forum. Jolly also gave me a couple of my most cringe-worthy moments as a Demon fan. After coming off second best in a contest with Richmond's Greg Stafford he dead-set piked the next two centre bounce duels against ol' Elbows. Sh@t himself. It was embarrassing to watch.

He may have a flag but Jason Ball got it for him. Jolly remains what he has always been - a very good # 2 ruckman. Those who think otherwise & point to hitout statistics need only review Darren's finals campaigns. That's not to say he can't improve - he has had plenty of good teachers along the way & in Everitt he has another. But why was Everitt recruited (rhetorical question folks) ?

[Jarka 767]

When Jolly was given his 'chance', he'd spend about 80% of the game warming the bench. He rarely played more than a handfull of games in a row and he certainly wasn't given the chances that Jamar has had after so many ordinary performances.

Jolly was pushed down the pecking order below Jamar and Holland, but I'm prepared to wager that at the end of all their careers only Jolly will have played in a premiership team.

[Nasher 33,616]

but I'm prepared to wager that at the end of all their careers only Jolly will have played in a premiership team.

Playing in a premiership team does not automatically make you a superior player. There have been some dead set duds who have a premiership medal in their cabinet. Conversely there have been some brilliant players whose cabinets are bare.

Playing in a premiership is completely irrelevant to the argument.

[Jarka 767]

Playing in a premiership team does not automatically make you a superior player. There have been some dead set duds who have a premiership medal in their cabinet. Conversely there have been some brilliant players whose cabinets are bare.

Playing in a premiership is completely irrelevant to the argument.

I didn't say that it did make him a superior player so please don't misquote me.

The facts remain that we now have one of the worst ruck combinations going around and thjere are two decent performing ruckman playing for other clubs that we once had on our list.

[mauriesy 7,302]

Its fine to say that the Club needs a good 200cm + ruckman.

Plus what's the obsession with "200cm", other than it's a nice round figure? Why not 198 or 199cm?

We've got three of them. (No comment of whether they're actually any good.)

[Nasher 33,616]

I didn't say that it did make him a superior player so please don't misquote me.

The facts remain that we now have one of the worst ruck combinations going around and thjere are two decent performing ruckman playing for other clubs that we once had on our list.

I didn't misquote you. I quoted you directly. If you weren't saying that playing in a premiership made him a better player then why did you make the point at all?

I also don't think have the worst ruck combination going around. I'd put us somewhere in the middle. Let's take a look at some:

Adelaide: Their #1 is Hudson who is a quality player. Who else do they have? Some "combination".

Brisbane: The Lions have always managed to maintain a pretty solid list of rucks. They'd easily beat us.

Carlton: Ackland and Cameron Cloke. I'm quaking in my boots there.

Collingwood: Their best is Fraser but he's a #1 pick. He's not as good as Jeff White was in his prime. Beyond that Richards is so-so and Bryan is, well...

Essendon: Hille and Laycock together would stack up better than what he have.

Freo: Sandilands is a good ruckman, but beyond that they've got little. Longmuir can't get on the park at the moment.

Geelong: I don't even know who their ruckmen are. King ? Ottens?

Hawks: Robert Campbell and Simon Taylor are both slow moving, fumbling giants who provide almost nothing around the ground. We've got one Mark Jamar, they've got two of them.

North: Their ruck combination is Hale and McIntosh. Both first round draft picks. Yes they're a good combo, and so they bloody should be for the price they paid.

St Kilda: Rix, Brooks, Gardiner, Kozi... Oooooooh. Scary.

Swans: Everitt is a top class ruckman. Jolly is a good second ruck. They're on top of us.

West Coast: Cox is obviously the best in the business and Seaby IMO has what it takes to be a #1 at other clubs. Clearly they're better than us.

Bulldogs: Again Darcy is classy but they've got very little depth beyond that. Minson's form radically fluctuates and Peter Street has demonstrated time and time again that despite being the tallest man on Earth, can't play footy.

Tiges: Simmonds is a good player, but as good as Jeff White at his best? I don't think so. Good ruckman don't want to play as #2 rucks and Simmonds is a good example of that. Trent Knobel is a journeyman footballer who offers nothing other than taps.

Port: Lade and Brogan are good players.

So to summarise I'd say Brisbane, North, West Coast, Sydney, Port and maybe Adelaide have ruck divisions that are undoubtedly stronger than ours. That's six clubs. I don't think we're any worse off than any of the other nine clubs I mentioned. We're certainly not the worst.

[Madness 44]

For the future:

Dunn > Jolly. Nuff said.