An interesting article in the Canberra Times today about the ACT govt's support of GWS and why GWS needs Canberra more than Canberra needs it.  On these crowd figures, GWS should just rename themselves and move (or dissolve):

• Manuka Oval: average 9804 (39,216 total)
• Sydney Showground: average 6103 (36,617 total)
• Manuka Oval highest crowd: 11,661
• Sydney Showground highest crowd: 8754

You'd think that the oval in Canberra needs to be upgraded and have its capacity increased, if GWS were to relocate there

Note that Manuka Oval's capacity (to the point of standing in the mud around the side) is only about 12,000 and there's bugger-all parking or public transport. Almost no undercover seating but some great grass hills. It is very much a cricket ground.

Sydney Showground stadium is a very pretty little (22k I think) stadium with facilities a full 30 years newer than funny old Manuka.

Just being clear that the problem here isn't the stadium.

Add to that the fact that most of the people going to Manuka games are going for the general love of football and not so much anything to do with GWS.

The problem here isn't the fans.

Personally I still think the AFL should pull the plug on GWS and bring in a Tassie team to keep an 18 team comp.

GWS is a bit of a conundrum

Living in Sydney I struggle to see how they will ever build enough support to have a large membership and draw big crowds

Some may have said the same about the Swans but the key difference is that there are a significant number of AFL supporters in Sydney that have moved here from interstate and adopted the Swans as their new team or second team. Most of these people have moved here through work commitments and I'd say the vast majority are living in the eastern suburbs, lower north shore, northern beaches or upper north shore - hardly any would be living in the western suburbs and therefore have zero interest in GWS 

The west of Sydney is growing quickly and that is where the population is expanding most rapidly - the problem for GWS and the AFL is that few if any of these people have any interest in the AFL. Most would be more interested in soccer or the 2 rugby codes

If it's going to work out for GWS my guess is it will take a very long time - question is do the AFL have the patience to persist that long.  

1 hour ago, MadAsHell said:

Personally I still think the AFL should pull the plug on GWS and bring in a Tassie team to keep an 18 team comp.

60% of all advertising revenue comes from NSW and Southern Queensland

Thats why we have GWS and Gold Coast.

Tassie generates around  6%

 

In case you think this is about emotion and history

54 minutes ago, Sydee said:

GWS is a bit of a conundrum

Living in Sydney I struggle to see how they will ever build enough support to have a large membership and draw big crowds

Some may have said the same about the Swans but the key difference is that there are a significant number of AFL supporters in Sydney that have moved here from interstate and adopted the Swans as their new team or second team. Most of these people have moved here through work commitments and I'd say the vast majority are living in the eastern suburbs, lower north shore, northern beaches or upper north shore - hardly any would be living in the western suburbs and therefore have zero interest in GWS 

The west of Sydney is growing quickly and that is where the population is expanding most rapidly - the problem for GWS and the AFL is that few if any of these people have any interest in the AFL. Most would be more interested in soccer or the 2 rugby codes

If it's going to work out for GWS my guess is it will take a very long time - question is do the AFL have the patience to persist that long.  

It’s all about Television Advertising revenue 

Money is the motivation 

GWS has approximately 30k member of which a quarter to a third are based in Canberra.  A conservative estimate is that at least a third barrack for another club, (I've also heard it might be as high as half) and have a GWS membership to get into see the footy at Manuka.  Undoubtedly this bolsters the crowd attendance in Canberra.  When the Swans play GWS here in Canberra the crowd is overwhelmingly Swans supporters.  

Of the around 20k GWS members that live in Sydney only about 6K actually go to the footy.    

It took Sydney about 30 years to financially break even up there - GWS are in for a long road.   I can't imagine a mini-rebuild of their list in the short term will improve crowd numbers. 

 

27 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

60% of all advertising revenue comes from NSW and Southern Queensland

Thats why we have GWS and Gold Coast.

Tassie generates around  6%

 

In case you think this is about emotion and history

Is that advertising revenue for the AFL jnr, or in general? 

1 hour ago, Little Goffy said:

Note that Manuka Oval's capacity (to the point of standing in the mud around the side) is only about 12,000 and there's bugger-all parking or public transport. Almost no undercover seating but some great grass hills. It is very much a cricket ground.

Sydney Showground stadium is a very pretty little (22k I think) stadium with facilities a full 30 years newer than funny old Manuka.

Just being clear that the problem here isn't the stadium.

Add to that the fact that most of the people going to Manuka games are going for the general love of football and not so much anything to do with GWS.

The problem here isn't the fans.

I love the Manuka Oval as a venue to watch AFL, and I’ve always found parking to be relatively easy; public transport has always sucked big time in Canberra.

The Manuka Oval reminds me of the days when the then VFL clubs had their own grounds (when I’d go in the 60’s) which were, for the most part, small capacity with a nice community like atmosphere.  

48 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

60% of all advertising revenue comes from NSW and Southern Queensland

Thats why we have GWS and Gold Coast.

Tassie generates around  6%

 

In case you think this is about emotion and history

That's all well and good. Problem is GWS have had a good 7 years or so of being in contention and they can't even get an average of 7,000 to their games. What advertisers want to jump on a team who can't draw a crowd and are about to go through a rebuild?

52 minutes ago, hardtack said:

I love the Manuka Oval as a venue to watch AFL, and I’ve always found parking to be relatively easy; public transport has always sucked big time in Canberra.

The Manuka Oval reminds me of the days when the then VFL clubs had their own grounds (when I’d go in the 60’s) which were, for the most part, small capacity with a nice community like atmosphere.  

I've been to manuka a couple of times and it's a great little ground. It would be perfect if there were 7k diehard giants fans to give it some atmosphere. There's generally 500 Melbourne supporters, 500 giants and the rest are neutral meaning it's kind of a weird atmosphere. You feel like you're in the minority in actually caring about the game. 

42 minutes ago, MadAsHell said:

That's all well and good. Problem is GWS have had a good 7 years or so of being in contention and they can't even get an average of 7,000 to their games. What advertisers want to jump on a team who can't draw a crowd and are about to go through a rebuild?

9 games every weekend and 1 of those is always with a Sydney Team at home 

2 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Note that Manuka Oval's capacity (to the point of standing in the mud around the side) is only about 12,000 and there's bugger-all parking or public transport. Almost no undercover seating but some great grass hills. It is very much a cricket ground.

Sydney Showground stadium is a very pretty little (22k I think) stadium with facilities a full 30 years newer than funny old Manuka.

Just being clear that the problem here isn't the stadium.

Add to that the fact that most of the people going to Manuka games are going for the general love of football and not so much anything to do with GWS.

The problem here isn't the fans.

Manuka sounds like the old Moorabbin ground.

I just don't think Sydney can accommodate 2 cubs. It may change but it will most likely take a very long time. If you don't follow nrl you would most likely pick Swans.

They could move to Canberra and still call themselves GWS.

Being the home of politics, it would stand for Grifters, Windbags and Shysters.

14 minutes ago, Demonstone said:

They could move to Canberra and still call themselves GWS.

Being the home of politics, it would stand for Grifters, Windbags and Shysters.

Edit...and scomos

Interestingly GWS played St Kilda, Geelong, Brisbane and Freo in those 4 Manuka games and got smoked in all of them. They used to win a lot there.

The Showgrounds games were against GC, Carl, WCE, Dogs, Hawks and Bombers. 

Not a great commercial fixture there with no Coll or Rich and Ess only late in the year with both teams done.

Its also a little misleading as they played their one big home game of the year at Stadium Aus v Sydney in round 1.

The argument that they should move home games against big Victorian clubs to the SCG to capitalise on travelling fans is a tricky one. It would help the crowds, but suddenly they are Sydney 2.0 and not GWS. And they’d have 3 home games and potentially only play a minority of home games at their home!

1 hour ago, Kozzie4PM said:

I've been to manuka a couple of times and it's a great little ground. It would be perfect if there were 7k diehard giants fans to give it some atmosphere. There's generally 500 Melbourne supporters, 500 giants and the rest are neutral meaning it's kind of a weird atmosphere. You feel like you're in the minority in actually caring about the game. 

I agree. I was there for 4 days and with all the museums, a game of golf and the footy it was a good trip. I electric scootered to the game. They get snow in the middle of winter though. 

5 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Is that advertising revenue for the AFL jnr, or in general? 

General. The AFL had to compete with the NRL in their home markets and even though crowd numbers are low in the NRL, viewing numbers are huge.

Edited August 23, 20223 yr by jnrmac

6 hours ago, Sydee said:

GWS is a bit of a conundrum

Living in Sydney I struggle to see how they will ever build enough support to have a large membership and draw big crowds

Some may have said the same about the Swans but the key difference is that there are a significant number of AFL supporters in Sydney that have moved here from interstate and adopted the Swans as their new team or second team. Most of these people have moved here through work commitments and I'd say the vast majority are living in the eastern suburbs, lower north shore, northern beaches or upper north shore - hardly any would be living in the western suburbs and therefore have zero interest in GWS 

The west of Sydney is growing quickly and that is where the population is expanding most rapidly - the problem for GWS and the AFL is that few if any of these people have any interest in the AFL. Most would be more interested in soccer or the 2 rugby codes

If it's going to work out for GWS my guess is it will take a very long time - question is do the AFL have the patience to persist that long.  

I also live in Sydney and agree with these comments. I lived in Canberra in the early-mid 80’s, and AFL was pretty strong (a lot of the residents came from elsewhere), and then Raiders came along and League became very strong, along with Union. It seems that with GWS numbers, there is still strong Canberra interest in AFL. I think GWS in Sydney is a lost (and expensive ) cause.

2 minutes ago, Hassa Mann said:

I also live in Sydney and agree with these comments. I lived in Canberra in the early-mid 80’s, and AFL was pretty strong (a lot of the residents came from elsewhere), and then Raiders came along and League became very strong, along with Union. It seems that with GWS numbers, there is still strong Canberra interest in AFL. I think GWS in Sydney is a lost (and expensive ) cause.

Yes the AFL missed a great opportunity.  Most of Canberra's early growth was public servants being trasnferred from Melbourne who of course had an aussie rules background.  At worst the city was 50:50 between rugby and footy.   But the NRL got in first with the Raiders and provided a team for Canberra and so it took off.   Canberra now supports both a league and union team, but a shadow of an AFL team.  The AFL missed the bus badly.

8 hours ago, ElDiablo14 said:

You'd think that the oval in Canberra needs to be upgraded and have its capacity increased, if GWS were to relocate there

Ever been there? It’s a fantastic ground to watch footy 

1 hour ago, Hassa Mann said:

I also live in Sydney and agree with these comments. I lived in Canberra in the early-mid 80’s, and AFL was pretty strong (a lot of the residents came from elsewhere), and then Raiders came along and League became very strong, along with Union. It seems that with GWS numbers, there is still strong Canberra interest in AFL. I think GWS in Sydney is a lost (and expensive ) cause.

Agreed.  If you have to travel just as far as it would be to watch a Swannies game would you not choose the latter?

7 hours ago, sue said:

Yes the AFL missed a great opportunity.  Most of Canberra's early growth was public servants being trasnferred from Melbourne who of course had an aussie rules background.  At worst the city was 50:50 between rugby and footy.   But the NRL got in first with the Raiders and provided a team for Canberra and so it took off.   Canberra now supports both a league and union team, but a shadow of an AFL team.  The AFL missed the bus badly.

It was interesting place Canberra in those days, moving from Melbourne for work - I knew no one. But like a country town if you played sport, it took no time at all to get involved and meet people. 

15 hours ago, Sydee said:

GWS is a bit of a conundrum

Living in Sydney I struggle to see how they will ever build enough support to have a large membership and draw big crowds

Some may have said the same about the Swans but the key difference is that there are a significant number of AFL supporters in Sydney that have moved here from interstate and adopted the Swans as their new team or second team. Most of these people have moved here through work commitments and I'd say the vast majority are living in the eastern suburbs, lower north shore, northern beaches or upper north shore - hardly any would be living in the western suburbs and therefore have zero interest in GWS 

The west of Sydney is growing quickly and that is where the population is expanding most rapidly - the problem for GWS and the AFL is that few if any of these people have any interest in the AFL. Most would be more interested in soccer or the 2 rugby codes

If it's going to work out for GWS my guess is it will take a very long time - question is do the AFL have the patience to persist that long.  

Absolutely long term.

The end goal from a supporter growth perspective is the second generation of migrant families in the west, and the generations of kids who grow up out there.

It'll take 30 years, but if the AFL actually want to be a long term money generating national competition then they need to invest in the market there long term.

14 hours ago, MadAsHell said:

That's all well and good. Problem is GWS have had a good 7 years or so of being in contention and they can't even get an average of 7,000 to their games. What advertisers want to jump on a team who can't draw a crowd and are about to go through a rebuild?

The AFL doesn't care about crowds, they care about advertising and TV, that's where the money is.