2 minutes ago, A F said:

I agree it's a bad contract, but that wouldn't be the contract we're paying, so it becomes irrelevant. 

It's relevant in the sense that we should realise a trade discount from Collingwood for opening space in their salary cap, much the same as what Gold Coast are seemingly offering.

5 minutes ago, A F said:

And 700k is a bargain for the second best ruckman in the game.

Agree.

3 minutes ago, IvanBartul13 said:

It's relevant in the sense that we should realise a trade discount from Collingwood for opening space in their salary cap, much the same as what Gold Coast are seemingly offering.

I get it, and I agree to an extent, but no two deals are the same.

Gold Coast may not have the same leverage as Collingwood have. We want Grundy and have met with him. No one may be willing to take Bowes, so they've had to dangle their pick 7.

Besides, Gold Coast are probably at a different time frame in their list build, where another top 10 pick is valued less than clearing cap space.

Edited September 22, 20222 yr by A F

27 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Yes, prolonging Gawn's career and replacing Jackson are obvious factors, but I was responding to your comment about how Grundy fits in to how "our problems are ball movement going inside 50, inside 50 pressure and around the ground pressure."

I agree they're problems, but looking at what we already do with the kicks to the pocket and trying to force a stoppage then to me the answer is obvious as to why the 2 rucks setup seems so important to Goody. It's been a part of his plan for a long time - We went for Preuss and people questioned why, then Jackson and people questioned why, now Grundy.

I don't love it as a plan, I would much rather have more targeted inside 50s and better forwards, but this seems the way Goodwin (a premiership winning coach) wants to go.

 

Based on the game style now of Swans, Cats and Pies, I think  the 2021 approach by Goodwin has now passed its use by date.

I just hope he is evolving strategy - wise and not looking to recruit to replicate last year. It won't fly any longer and we'll end up 8th to 5th again IMO.

7 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

Doesn't spread hi stax once your in the big numbers.  Once over max threshold of $180K  its 45 cents in the dollar above 180K.  So 500 or 700, if the toal 3 year amount is $2.0M or so  , same tax will be paid over the 3 years.

Fair enough, I am not an Accountant and was looking for benefits, but more money and a longer career may have some interest to a player.

3 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

Based on the game style now of Swans, Cats and Pies, I think  the 2021 approach by Goodwin has now passed its use by date.

I just hope he is evolving strategy - wise and not looking to recruit to replicate last year. It won't fly any longer and we'll end up 8th to 5th again IMO.

Maybe. I hate the kick to the pocket stuff, but I also recognise we weren't able to physically execute properly in the later part of the year so it's a bit harder to judge.

 

2 minutes ago, A F said:

I get it, and I agree to an extent, but no two deals are the same.

Gold Coast may not have the same leverage as Collingwood have. We want Grundy and have met with him. No one may be willing to take Bowes, so they've had to dangle their pick 7.

Besides, Gold Coast are probably at a different time frame in their list build, where another top 10 pick is valued less than clearing cap space.

Of course and you are right about the Suns, they have a strange list dynamic where they seemingly are constantly having more picks than they need.  But the pick still has the same value in the AFL universe and they probably would have a decent market for it if they wanted to trade it for a future pick.  There is nothing stopping them realising its value as an asset, even if they don't really need it as much as other clubs at the current point in time.

In any case, and this point will not be lost on @Redleg, it's that the optics of us paying full trade price for Grundy  if clubs are effectively being coerced into taking Bowes and the Bulldogs paid way unders for Adam Treloar, that will be hard to deal with.

24 minutes ago, Redleg said:

That is what has been reported though, that the Suns will look at 7 and Bowes, for his full contract to be taken over.

What if we did that, got in Bowes and said we will give you a 3 year contract at say $500k a year, so he gets a bit less in the first two years but more over 3 years and has a 3 year deal which gives him some security and spreads his tax load.. 

We then have pick 7, along with the Jacko picks.

What if Hunt leaves, who is probably on about $400k and we get a compo pick and have Bowes to replace him. We could move on Baker, Melk and Hibbo and be a fair bit ahead on our salary cap. Tomlinson may also go saving us another $500k.

Can you see any other way we could get 7, which when added to the Jacko picks would give us the ability to add to our list with high end talent.

Yeah, we'd need to tinker with the list you'd imagine, like trading out Tomlinson and Hunt.

I would assume that Lamb and co have deliberately offered long term deals to spread the dollars across years to free up some cap space for FAs over the next few years, so you'd hope we could use some of this surplus to pay Bowes.

17 minutes ago, mo64 said:

The bad part is the 5 years remaining on his contract for a player who has pretty much missed a whole year with consecutive long term injuries.

I could swallow getting Grundy if he had 2 years running on his contract, and demonstrated he had recovered from injury.

Agree, 5 years is the risky part, but IMV you have to be aggressive to win flags. Hawthorn were aggressive in their pursuit of backmen that were FAs, Geelong have been aggressive in their pursuit of Dangerfield and Cameron, and are on the precipice of a flag. We were aggressive with Lever and May.

If Grundy helps us win even one more flag during his five year contract, it's a raging success. If he helps us win two, this seems like a completely pedantic conversation in five years time.

Edited September 22, 20222 yr by A F

Just by the way on Grundy, one good tap in the forward pocket each game, could be an extra goal every game to us.

One good tap in the middle could be another.

 

Is Grundy the 2nd best ruck in the league though? He was 4 years ago. He's 29 in April coming off an injury riddled year and 5yrs to go on a contract.

Who are the Cats and Swans ruckmen?

For all the hype around Gawn, we don't dominate.

I'd prefer to put the $700k towards a KPF. Theres no doubt Grundy will come now, but I don't see it improving us.

Edited September 22, 20222 yr by SFebes

Gawn's best work has always been his influence around the ground. People point to his ruck stats but when he was clunking contested marks on the regular and being a brick wall to stop teams transitioning we were incredible. 

Then for the 2021 final series I had the treat of attending and watching the opposition sweat when he wandered forward and tossed around key backs for fun. 

The idea to make him a permenant forward in my opinion has it's flaws, but I think Jackson wasn't offering us enough at times as the second ruck or even as forward for it to even have a chance of working.

Grundy gives headaches. It wasn't long ago him and Gawn were the MVP's of the league. Players who caused headaches for opposition teams are worth their weight in gold and we should welcome as many of these players into our team as possible.

Edited September 22, 20222 yr by MurDoc516
spelling

1 hour ago, SFebes said:

For all the hype around Gawn, we don't dominate.

100% correct this year. There was such a disconnect between Max and our mids that it more often than not saw us losing the clearance battle when he was rucking.

I don’t want to win hit outs, I want us to win clearances as this is when we play our best football.

5 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

100% correct this year. There was such a disconnect between Max and our mids that it more often than not saw us losing the clearance battle when he was rucking.

I don’t want to win hit outs, I want us to win clearances as this is when we play our best football.

And it's not difficult for opposition coaches to plan against losing the hit out. Goody said it himself when we were without Gawn and Jackson for 1 game.

When is something going to happen?

I’m bored.

This was on social media today, with about fifty pies fans commenting below saying how shocked they are  

Meanwhile on Demonland we have over a thousand comments about it, dating back to July. 

Do these dopes live under a rock?
 

 

7 hours ago, A F said:

And 700k is a bargain for the second best ruckman in the game.

WAS AF.  When was the last time he played at that level?

Salary cap dump or no salary cap dump, you try and hang on to the best players on your list no matter what.  See DeGoey.

There's more to it than just the dump. I smell damaged goods! 

NO TRADE DEMONS...FCS DON'T DO IT!

On 9/21/2022 at 10:46 AM, SPC said:

We need a hybrid ruck/forward, not another tap ruckman

Absolutely! Just one, well supported with existing talent - and an improved game plan or two.

If we take Grundy, I can see a scenario where Gawn spends a great big chunk of time in defensive intercept positions and as the relief long kick when we are coming out of our own defence, while Grundy spends a large amount of time in the center (where his 360-degree awareness and handiness in chaotic play will be of most value) or providing another tall link in the chain along the wing and half forward.

For both of them it means a ton less running. It also would mean our emergency escape bomb kicks would at least reach a realistic contest every time.

I really like the thought of a less tired Gawn competing for marks. Could break contested mark records!

With the roles mostly divided like that and neither of them having to cover so much ground just to reach contests, both would be playing close to 100% game time, allowing for some extra rotations for the running and grunting players.

The idea continues to grow on me.

7 hours ago, Redleg said:

Just by the way on Grundy, one good tap in the forward pocket each game, could be an extra goal every game to us.

One good tap in the middle could be another.

 

Tom McDonald and JVR both showed off their ability to win the ball in the ruck and snap. Strong key forwards doing a Hawkins seem more effective than rucks in that situation. Grundy has the ability to it but I can't remember it being a great part of his game. Same goes for Max. He grabs it just fine, but it's pretty easy to smother in the 7 seconds it takes for him to get boot to ball.

11 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Grundy on $700k is a reasonable deal for the club. He was a top 10 player in the game. So I don't think a late first round pick is the issue. (Cap space is a much more important asset than picks in the age of free agency. We just don't get to see this because salaries are not public.)

But I agree that he is not the best way for Melbourne to spend the $700k in our cap. We should be targeting a forward.

Members might be better served if they were polled on the Grundy deal - and supporters if so requesting. We sit here with a thousand recommendations of varying influence and opinion (which is healthy) but have little 'input' to the decisions that are sometimes made.

Some decision in the past season have been breath-taking; the old '...paddling the river in a barbed-wire canoe...' has been a regular occurrence.

Having watched our VFL side begin to peak, playing a game that became stronger and more unstoppable towards their finals series - and eventually reaching a crescendo at the right time due to advances in teamwork and execution - it was evident, early, that there were overdue infiltrations of youthful talent across the field of play that should have been inserted into the big-time (albeit in small numbers) and thus, receiving support and encouragement in the AFL side and its game plan to really strengthen our opportunities despite fielding injured players and reputational individuals sadly out of good form. I honestly feel that recruiting Grundy invokes a holding of breath for most Demon supporters, just like some of the decisions made to play tired or injured personnel, singular game plan capacities and continuously pursued but unspecific 'learnings' for next week.

 

1 hour ago, Demon Dynasty said:

WAS AF.  When was the last time he played at that level?

Salary cap dump or no salary cap dump, you try and hang on to the best players on your list no matter what.  See DeGoey.

There's more to it than just the dump. I smell damaged goods! 

NO TRADE DEMONS...FCS DON'T DO IT!

Degoey may well sign for St Kilda...

25 minutes ago, A F said:

Degoey may well sign for St Kilda...

I'd be flumoxed if he ends up there AF. 

Has to have some link somewhere if the Manager's to have any leverage at the bargaining table i would think.

This is only last year. Looks not bad as a forward. His hands are clean. He doesn't kick that many goals in total as he's been the main ruck. I think with 50% time in the forward line he could kick 25 to 35 goals a year. If Max can replicate that with his 50%, that's a good outcome.

Another positive I see in the signing is, lets say Gawn and Grundy play until there 34. That means we have Gawn for 4 more years and Grundy for 6. In my opinion, our premiership window is more than 4 more years. By getting Grundy extends our time with a dominant ruckman whilst in our window, tapping it down to Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney etc.

18 hours ago, IvanBartul13 said:

It's possible but Gold Coast have to get something back in the trade for it to be AFL sanctioned.  I would be very surprised if they get nothing back of any value.  If they want a pick in the teens back it's not quite so inviting.  if they are happy to take a future third or something back, well that changes everything.  FWIW, I and many others believe there is a clear tier of top players in the draft which ends at pick 5 or 6. 

Well history proves you are wrong !!

8 hours ago, xman97 said:

This is only last year. Looks not bad as a forward. His hands are clean. He doesn't kick that many goals in total as he's been the main ruck. I think with 50% time in the forward line he could kick 25 to 35 goals a year.

There is some negative recency bias on Grundy -  largely because he has been absent in a season where Collingwood turned things around. 

I’m genuinely not sure whether 50% forward line time is feasible though… never kicked more than 12 in a season and even though that may be because he hasn’t spent time there I’m sure they experimented with this a bit with Cox in the side.