Hawks on the Slide: How Mitchell is making life hard for himself

[Guest]

The Norm Smith Curse didn't happen overnight.

It was a serious of events. The lawsuit with Don Blew. Barass leaving. Norm getting sacked, reinstated and, when he ran for the board, then rejected by rejected by the members (which caused him to cut all ties to the club). Norm had also been warning the playing group was running out of puff before the great crash of '65.

Richmond's post '82 meltdown played out in similar fashion.

Hawthorn best remember that.

[Diamond_Jim 12,600]

And now there's a quasi challenge to Chairman Jeff

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/kennett-s-board-facing-challenge-from-former-super-boss-ex-hawk-20211011-p58z1w.html

Jeff Kennett’s Hawthorn board is facing a potential challenge from the just-retired head of Australian Super, Ian Silk, and well-known former player and ex-board member Andy Gowers.

 

 

[rpfc 28,546]

I really don’t mind the name change @Demonland but for those ‘rpfc stans,’ as the kids say, I was attempting a ‘Haw-thorn in the side’ pun that I know three of you would appreciate…

…

I will find my own way out.

 

Ah, found the fire door!

 

(that’s a family guy reference for the two that got that)

Edited October 11, 2021 by rpfc

[Sir Why You Little 37,054]

1 hour ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Oh, hell. What a blow. Such a nice club too. The family club!

 

I was wondering how this post season could get any better. Thank you!

 

But you won't be upset if the rest of us do? Like, don't spoil the fun.

Free Swing Mate. Go for your life. We are the Reining Premier 

Gin & Tonic?

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I really don’t mind the name change @Demonland but for those ‘rpfc stans,’ as the kids say, I was attempting a ‘Haw-thorn in the side’ pun that I know three of you would appreciate…

…

I will find my own way out.

 

Ah, found the fire door!

 

(that’s a family guy reference for the two that got that)

FWIW, I liked your pun. 🙂

[DubDee 25,964]

46 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I really don’t mind the name change @Demonland but for those ‘rpfc stans,’ as the kids say, I was attempting a ‘Haw-thorn in the side’ pun that I know three of you would appreciate…

…

I will find my own way out.

 

Ah, found the fire door!

 

(that’s a family guy reference for the two that got that)

A pun so bad, the mods changed the title

ouch! 😂

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

2 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Starting to look like they might even be doing it -worse- than the Demon's first rebuild 2007-11.

Wingard, Mitchell and O'Meara are only in the 27-28 years range. They have a dozen other players older than that and many of them are also important to the team.

It is a big risk to be trying to dispose of your remaining mature players when you are already about to lose a host of them naturally. But I guess that works both ways - if they don't hit the panic button and get whatever draft selections and young players they can, they will be in all sorts of trouble anyway.

Looks to me like the only part of the ground they have reasonable prospects in from the younger players is defence. That's important (As we so happily know - Oh hey, did you hear we won the premiership? Yeah, we did that) but damn they look threadbare everywhere else.

They've got just 80 games total into every player they have 21yrs or under (Demons: 220!) and that's a fair reflection of what's available in that group.

I've looked at it and talked myself in a circle but the conclusion is; I cannot see a way Hawthorn can avoid a really awful and sustained slump.

YAAAAAAAY! WOOOO HOOO!

The best outcome for the rest of the league is if those average vets on thier list can help Hawthorn stay compeditive enough that they perennially occupy about the same ladder position they did at the end of this year, so they never quite get access to the absolute best talents that a top 1 - 4 pick brings. 

If being sufficiently non compeditive to also never be compeditive enough to be a credible finals threat also frustrates what quality youngish talent they do have on their list, who then exercise their rights as free agents, then again that's good for the competition.

Really, when you look at it, this situation at Hawthorn has been building for a number of years when they chose to take a punt on guys like $culley (maybe not so $$$ for them) and Jonathan Pattern who just wasted a list spot for a couple of years without really providing anything for the future.  Traded a quality young player to Adelaide or Port was it as part of the Wingard swap.  Another 2 - 3 years of developing a few players who could have been the basis of their future there.

Long may this mediocre list management by Hawthorn continue.

[Deestroy All 14,266]

27 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

FWIW, I liked your pun. 🙂

Me too. 
Big fan of the new rpfc [censored] on the graves of these former powerhouses. 

[pineapple dee 2,892]

Mitchell is putting more noses out of joint than Leigh Matthews or Damian Monkhorst in their heydays !! 

Keep up the good work Mitch !!

[Cards13 9,117]

4 hours ago, dieter said:

Yes, Kennett knows a lot about 'footy' - witness his move to demote Clarkson to Box Hill the year after they won the flag. Jeffie was also good at selling off infrastructure, which very surprisingly, got snapped up by his mates. Then again, that's what mates are for.

diets I was at the G the day Jeff jumped on radio after a few drinks, I was at a sponsors event and somehow ended up in the Long Room and Jeff was leaning against the bar pontificating with a crowd and putting back a number of tumblers. His performance on the radio was amazing in the context of where the Hawks ended up, he clearly has always had an agenda against Clarkson. 

The fact Clarkson is on record as saying he is consulting for a potential Tasmanian team and would coach them (if unemployed at the time) I think is telling. It would be chef's kiss territory if he was the first coach of a Tassie team and thumbs his nose at a Kennett led Hawks (Jeff will have long retired by then).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-24/alastair-clarkson-open-to-coaching-tasmanian-afl-team/100490892

[Cards13 9,117]

4 hours ago, DubDee said:

Clarkson has certainly left the Hawks in an awful state. Very little youth coming through and the senior players are mostly ones that have been traded in, so they have no core leadership to bring them forward. if the rebuild started in 2018 they would be looking good now to bounce back.

I think Mitchell is doing the right thing to start a rebuild and you do need to be aggressive, but you have to know the marketplace.  there is no one is salary cap space.

I would not be surprised at all if Mitchell or O'Meara leave at the last minute and the hawks are paying a chunk of their salary next year.  they both came to the hawks for success and now they are looking at years of rebuilding with an untried and seemingly arrogant coach

It is an interesting point DD, he and the always acclaimed Graeme Wright have certainly left a few ciggie butts and half empty stubbies on the floor. Big Sam sure wants to do a clean up of the place. 😂

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

To expand a bit more on how bad the Wingard trade and list management decisions made by Hawthorn around that time has been for them:

2018 Port Adelaide has received Burton (2021, now 24 yo, from Hawthorn) Mayes, pick five and five 15 in the swap, giving up Wingard and pick six.

Hawthorn netted Wingard, but gave up pick 15, pick 35 and Burton.

I've never watched him closely enough to make a credible assement of him, but Burton must be a fair player, because he played something like 24 games for Port in a season they played in a prelim.

Not exactly sure what pick swap Port might have done outside of the one with Hawthorn, but it's worth noting that in the same year as the Wingard swap, the picked up Rozzie, Butters and Duursma.

There's a sliding door moment for you.

[DubDee 25,964]

34 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

To expand a bit more on how bad the Wingard trade and list management decisions made by Hawthorn around that time has been for them:

2018 Port Adelaide has received Burton (2021, now 24 yo, from Hawthorn) Mayes, pick five and five 15 in the swap, giving up Wingard and pick six.

Hawthorn netted Wingard, but gave up pick 15, pick 35 and Burton.

I've never watched him closely enough to make a credible assement of him, but Burton must be a fair player, because he played something like 24 games for Port in a season they played in a prelim.

Not exactly sure what pick swap Port might have done outside of the one with Hawthorn, but it's worth noting that in the same year as the Wingard swap, the picked up Rozzie, Butters and Duursma.

There's a sliding door moment for you.

Horrible trade by the hawks. Burton is an excellent defender with very good kicking skills. 

wingard is a decent player. Had good years at Port but he tries when he wants to now

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,704]

5 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

The Norm Smith Curse is over.

The Clarkson Curse has begun. 

Long live the Clarkson Curse!

Was thinking this exact thing last week 😂

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,859]

5 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Starting to look like they might even be doing it -worse- than the Demon's first rebuild 2007-11.

Wingard, Mitchell and O'Meara are only in the 27-28 years range. They have a dozen other players older than that and many of them are also important to the team.

It is a big risk to be trying to dispose of your remaining mature players when you are already about to lose a host of them naturally. But I guess that works both ways - if they don't hit the panic button and get whatever draft selections and young players they can, they will be in all sorts of trouble anyway.

Looks to me like the only part of the ground they have reasonable prospects in from the younger players is defence. That's important (As we so happily know - Oh hey, did you hear we won the premiership? Yeah, we did that) but damn they look threadbare everywhere else.

They've got just 80 games total into every player they have 21yrs or under (Demons: 220!) and that's a fair reflection of what's available in that group.

I've looked at it and talked myself in a circle but the conclusion is; I cannot see a way Hawthorn can avoid a really awful and sustained slump.

YAAAAAAAY! WOOOO HOOO!

By my reckoning, that was about our eighth since '64. 

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,859]

Scene: Round 20, 2022, Horethorn vs. Suns. Horethorn down by a goal at three quarter time. Need to win to avoid the wooden spoon.

Mitchell: "Right boys, we're in this. I just need one more quarter of commitment, blood and guts. Run your hardest and tackle like you've never tackled before. Go in, head first if you must . . . commit to the contest and put your team mates before all else. Can I count on yous all?"

Wingard under his breath to O'Meara: "Yeah, nah."

[1964_2 2,357]

8 hours ago, rpfc said:

As we all love the slide down the ladder of the Hawks I thought it be good if we talk about the current mistakes that Sam “I’m too good to let one of the greatest coaches ever have a dignified exit” Mitchell is repeating. 

We all know how them pushing out Hodge and Lewis and co broke their culture (could have learnt something there Sam)…

And now they are doing the same with established senior players: 

https://www.afl.com.au/news/683923
 

Wingard on the table but he doesn’t want to be on the table… 

Mess.

When TMac and ANB were on the table last year, they were told they should move on and it wasn’t a surprise and they should try to control their own destiny. 

Nothing concrete materialised and you know the rest. 

But Hawthorn are shopping people that have not been brought on that journey; something tells me the results they will get owing me sane that we saw from TMac and ANB.

Discuss.

kicking out Clarko before he is ready to go is worth a 57 year curse at least!

means no more hawks flags while I am alive     :)

 

[Crompton's the man 659]

I have confessed previously to consenting to an accord with one of my sons-in-law that the progeny of the mixed marriage would be brought up to barrack for whomsoever might be in the higher position on the ladder at the time

 

and time goes by so slowly……

 

 

but my second most favourite Russian proverb comes to mind for some reason that I can’t explain:

 

If you live long enough you will see the body of your enemy floating down the river 

[Jaded No More 68,967]

Wingard is the definition of a downhill skier. 
Skilled but soft as butter and lazy. The worst player to have in a young team trying to set standards. 
No wonder GWS wants him. Another selfish highly skilled player to add to the “me first” club. 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

The arrogance of Hawthorn is they (Kennett) believed their success came from some sort of superior system or culture when in reality it was brought about by a bunch of high and priority draft picks.

Their sustained success then came from being able to attract good players from other teams who wanted to play with all the high and priority picks.

Geelong are similar in that their success was based around a lot of father-son selections (although they do draft very well) and then topping up their good list with other good players from other clubs.

[rpfc 28,546]

1 hour ago, Clint Bizkit said:

The arrogance of Hawthorn is they (Kennett) believed their success came from some sort of superior system or culture when in reality it was brought about by a bunch of high and priority draft picks.

Their sustained success then came from being able to attract good players from other teams who wanted to play with all the high and priority picks.

Geelong are similar in that their success was based around a lot of father-son selections (although they do draft very well) and then topping up their good list with other good players from other clubs.

Correction - they did draft well. They ain’t got nobody coming through.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,816]

This thread should be preserved for the benefit of historians. It's a great example of two completely different lines of thought ending in the same conclusion.

The first is that Hawthorn should keep Clarkson and removing him is the dumbest move a football club could make since the MFC parted ways with Norm Smith which will lead inexorably to long periods of pain for Hawthorn supporters.

The second is that Hawthorn's list management in the last 5 years has been so diabolical that keeping Clarkson on as coach is the dumbest move a football club could make since the MFC parted ways with Norm Smith which will lead inexorably to long periods of pain for Hawthorn supporters.

[old55 23,626]

The problem for Hawthorn is that they are not going to be bad enough to get access to the pointy end of the draft for a number of years. They are looking like a 7th to 12th team and probably on the slide.

A midfield of Mitchell, O'Meara, Wingard, Worpel, Impey, Shiels, Phillips, Howe - serviced by McEvoy, maybe Ceglar if he stays, and the promising Reeves is competitive without being at the top echelon.  The problem here is that the core of talent is closer to the end than the start of their careers.  This area is going to ultimately get worse before it gets better.

The backline looks solid and has a lot of potential provided Grainger-Barras delivers on his draft position. Sicily, Day and Scrimshaw are all good players.  Jiath is exciting. Frost, Hartigan and Hardwick are all capable.  Bramble showed some good signs at the end of last year.  This area will only improve.

The forward line is more uncertain. Gunston and Breust are very good players and providing their bodies hold up will deliver the goods over the next year or two.  Talls have shown some promise but are unproven - it could go either way with Koschitzke and Lewis.  Moore had a very promising 2021.  This area is going to get worse before it gets better.

But I'd much rather be following Hawthorn than Geelong.

Edited October 12, 2021 by old55

[whatwhat say what 22,783]

15 hours ago, Crompton's the man said:

If you live long enough you will see the body of your enemy floating down the river 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by whatwhat say what

[grazman 7,441]

34 minutes ago, old55 said:

The problem for Hawthorn is that they are not going to be bad enough to get access to the pointy end of the draft for a number of years.

There's talent and then there's application. The big unknown is whether there's some blowback in terms of morale/happiness that some of those that have been publicly shopped around might not be as committed to the cause.  It has the potential to unravel very quickly for them if there is significant dissonance between the senior players and the coach/es.

Edited October 12, 2021 by grazman