1 minute ago, old dee said:

I can guarantee you one thing sue I never had the required skill at any age.

You’re not Robinson Crueso there.

1 minute ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

In 2020 did we have enough skill to win the premiership? no we didn’t. But did we have enough skill to beat Freo and Sydney, yes we did. When the Hawks threepeated they came to play for the big games but on a few occasions when playing a weaker side they would get jumped early and even be down at qtr time only to get a spray from their coach, then their leaders would step up and they’d go on to win by over ten goals. We get jumped by a weaker side and go on to lose, our leaders went missing last year when everyone knew what needed to happen in order to play finals. We may have been bundled straight out but it still would have been a great experience for some of our players.

We are a ninth placed talent BA. If you look at our performances over the season and not the last couple of weeks we could not cut it.  

McClure is saying exactly what Jake Niall did in his article on the weekend - our club is less than the sum of our parts (= soft, whatever). If we had 22 champions on the field who all came off the field after a 10 goal belting and they all said "but I did my part", we've still failed because these skilled players have played more for themselves than each other.

Our guys need to hold each other accountable, win their contests rather than getting sucked into others' and stick to the plan. I like the siege mentality (it's us against the world). And hopefully we have some continuity with players, because all the above is very difficult to achieve with a high turnover of players due to injury (form should be challenged rather than dropped).

Even Barassi has said that our vaulted teams of the 50's weren't a team of champions but a champion team. And Norm clearly held the line with adhering to standards.

6 hours ago, deelusions from afar said:

Disagree - I have heard him stick the boots into the Dees for years.  He makes these big statements but really has no idea what he's talking about.

I'm not saying everything is fine with our culture but I won't take notice of what Maclure thinks as I see him as a Dinosaur of a different era.

If you listen to him talk about any team (not just Melbourne) he wheels out the same narratives when things are going poorly for a team - he doesn't do the research or keep up with the changes, just shoots his mouth off and that's enough to start a chain of articles.

Do people seriously think that Max Gawn isn't "doing it"?  Do you think the senior players aren't getting together and talking about it?  Gimme a break.  The AFL is a very competitive industry where 9 teams lose every weekend - we're in the preseason with half our first choice team not playing against a nearly full strength team that will be in contention this year.

Well respected in the far cue area of d /heads.

7 minutes ago, willmoy said:

Well respected in the far cue area of d /heads.

But has he been wrong with us? Sad to say he has not. For so called commentators we are a gift. You can put us down and 9 out of ten years you will be correct. 

Tell May, Hibberd, Oliver, Jones and Viney they are soft and see how far you get.

6 hours ago, Sydee said:

He's right that its been 56 years since our last premiership

That's not something to be proud of - somethings NQR

Our list is either not good enough (possible) or there is a lack of real hunger by the playing group in particular

For many decades this club has appeared to be happy with either modest levels of success or found ways to excuse its failings

I think most of this rests with the players, once they cross that line the coaches have limited control

In my long journey supporting this club the times I have felt confident going into games knowing that the players would play for each other and give 100% unconditionally have been fairly limited unfortunately

 

The times I felt confident were the Northey years. He cared, and they followed his example. I was at the G one day when Strawb O'Dwyer stuffed something up on the outer wing. He screamed at the runner to go out and tell Strawb that his teammates had "worded their guts out" to get the ball to him and he'd let them down, and now he had a chance to make up for it over the rest of the game.

Daniher the next best, then daylight/moonlight/the-whole-of-the-universe to the rest.

 

6 minutes ago, frankie_d said:

The times I felt confident were the Northey years. He cared, and they followed his example. I was at the G one day when Strawb O'Dwyer stuffed something up on the outer wing. He screamed at the runner to go out and tell Strawb that his teammates had "worded their guts out" to get the ball to him and he'd let them down, and now he had a chance to make up for it over the rest of the game.

Daniher the next best, then daylight/moonlight/the-whole-of-the-universe to the rest.

 

IMO those were the only times in 56 years that the other clubs worried about the MFC. The rest of the time we have been irrelevant. 

What McLure is saying on the surface is correct. But 'culture' covers a multitude of sins and the comments are a tad simplistic.

In sport, the best teams win for a number of reasons. Normally, it is having a team that can have more members on a given day execute their skills under pressure than the other team. What allows them to do that varies per team. Having the talent in the first place, having the willingness to do it, the right leadership and coaching, the courage to lay it all on the line, performing when it matters, gameplan, physical conditioning, age, etc.

If you ultimately don't have the skill is your culture poor? Absolutely not. There are many examples of teams with lesser ability performing above expectations. They've done all they could to bridge the gap. Our own 1987 team a case in point. One could argue our culture under Northey was close to the best in the league. There was a ruthless determination among that team to perform. Ultimately, Carlton had the better team though.

Same goes with Daniher's 1998 and 2000 teams.

It is easy easy to throw everything into the same bucket and generalise. St Kilda has 100 years of bad culture? No, their teams under Alves were amazing. 

Culture, like most other things, can change for the better or for the worse. It can change for the better as it did under Checker Hughes, Norm Smith, Barassi, Northey and Daniher. But many other things are at play as well.

 

23 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Tell May, Hibberd, Oliver, Jones and Viney they are soft and see how far you get.

What about the other 17 DeeZee? 

I wouldn’t say he’s wrong about our culture, in 2018 it had appeared we had managed to change that with us playing tough uncompromising footy that actually made teams fear playing us. Now I feel like our brand is a fake tough, in that we have bash and crash players but when it comes to laying tackles and doing the one-percenters it just doesn’t seem to happen. 

Time and time again we’ve watched Melbourne teams coast through seasons of mediocrity. I agree that it has to be player driven but it can’t just be Max. Max is a great leader at pushing training standards and excelling at your choosing position, but he can’t be expected to create a new culture. The whole team needs to be want to buy in, work for each other, sometimes be willing to take a supportive role if your teammate is on fire that day. 

As for not dropping people of importance; Jones, TMac, Fritsch, Jetta are just to name a few that have been dropped. Melksham and AvB (most agree) somehow continued to get a pass last year. 

16 minutes ago, old dee said:

What about the other 17 DeeZee? 

Soft

40 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

Tell May, Hibberd, Oliver, Jones and Viney they are soft and see how far you get.

They need to lead in a way that others don't question and follow. No quarter given. Binman mentioned Oliver not doing same basic stuff that I would drag an u/15 for no matter how good he is.

If I do it to the best player in the side then nobody is sacred. I love Clarry but if continues to be an issue that's how you make a statement and change culture.

It's been done with Stevie J, Nick Del Santo, Montagna, Jeremy Mcgovern, Michael Walters, Heath Shaw and others

43 minutes ago, frankie_d said:

The times I felt confident were the Northey years. He cared, and they followed his example. I was at the G one day when Strawb O'Dwyer stuffed something up on the outer wing. He screamed at the runner to go out and tell Strawb that his teammates had "worded their guts out" to get the ball to him and he'd let them down, and now he had a chance to make up for it over the rest of the game.

Daniher the next best, then daylight/moonlight/the-whole-of-the-universe to the rest.

 

I don't know anywhere near Goodwin when it comes to football. I am a plodder, playing and understanding. I read others opinions on here and feel smarter by far.  But..

I get more upset, during a game, after a game, than I think Goodwin does. (its his job,  its my passion, apart from my darling).

I would really love to have a coach that obviously shared a passion for our club, and actually showed it.

There should be "learnings" whether you win or lose, but that's not why  you play. Practice match or for the 4 points .

You play to win and feel great for the next few days, until the next time you get learnings.

Hate it when I think the other sides think we are soft cox, as that Carlton player surmised. Probably why I liked Rod Grinter and Aaron Vandenberg.

Come on Dees get angry if we get behind in a game.

6 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

As I said, it's low-analysis populism. It resonates with those who don't like to think too hard, like Maclure.

A broken clock is still right twice a day. Our culture is poor and it does need to be driven by the players. Poor culture is failing to turn up for key games, it's giving teams a look in, it's failing to put the foot on their throat. It's been around for years and it's something that seems to be inherent in the club because changing players and coaches doesn't seem to fix it.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by Dr. Gonzo

2 hours ago, old dee said:

We are a ninth placed talent BA. If you look at our performances over the season and not the last couple of weeks we could not cut it.  

When I get a minute I want to look at our starting 22 for the two losses against Freo and Sydney last season compared to our starting 22 for the Geelong and Hawthorn finals in 2018. May only joined us at the end of 2018, Lever missed through injury (from memory) Petracca only started dominating last season. In short our talent has improved but our culture hasn’t. 

Whats behind the Saints rapid rise? 
2018 Saints 16th, Dee’s win 2 finals

Ratten appointed Saints coach.

2019 Saints 14th, Dees 17th

End of 2019 Saints trade in Hill, Howard, Ryder, Jones and Butler. 
 

2020 Saints 6th win a final, Dees 9th

Ive used the Saints as an example because they have managed to turn it around in two seasons. They have some talented players but I wouldn’t say they’re an overly skilled side. Ratten has brought a culture and gameplan that their players have seemingly bought into. I just looked at the Saints best 22 for this year, I personally think if both lists are fit, player for player we have the better list.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by Bombay Airconditioning

5 hours ago, old dee said:

I actually think our current problem is not enough good players against the top half of competition. It is not unusual but as fans we tend to over rate our players ability.

That doesn't explain our losses to teams below us on the ladder.

Unfortunately this is going to be the case going forward, comments like McClure's will only intensify after a couple of dodgy performances. 

I hope this doesn't happen for the sake of the club i love, but the wolves will be waiting at the door for Goodwin and Co.

The only club in the competition without a purpose built complex/Facility that houses our whole club administration and all that jazz.

No Casey /Gosch's Paddock aren't purpose built facilities for our club. This is a contributing factor not the only factor in our weak culture spiritually, team harmony, whole club togetherness.

This is not a cop out for what the players are producing from a footy perspective far from it, but is the group excited about training down at Casey? or walking 300 meters across Gosch's paddock to go to and from our changing rooms to go to training.

So what are players like Clarry and Trac thinking when its contract time?stay at the MFC because of our great culture its a club which has great facilities where we walk 300m to train or travel an hour to train at Casey. These will be real life factors for these two and our other young guns going forward.

Theses are the little things our club unfortunately has to contend with placing us futher behind the 8 ball. When will this ever change? could still be years away.

Culture is all encompassing, its not just on the ground and with in the playing group, its your whole entire club.

Yes the MCG is our home ground and was our "home" a long time ago but we've been soulless for long enough.

Welcome to the ugly side of our club culture.

Edited March 10, 20214 yr by Win4theAges

Bull dust ! What does he know about our club? What is  his source of “ information “ ?

Absolutely true. Why bother arguing against it. Coaches can't win games.Physios cant win games. Supporters can only keep feeding money to this failure ridden pack of losers until the players have had enough of being laughed at.

2 hours ago, old dee said:

We are a ninth placed talent BA. If you look at our performances over the season and not the last couple of weeks we could not cut it.  

Rubbish.

11 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

When I get a minute I want to look at our starting 22 for the two losses against Freo and Sydney last season compared to our starting 22 for the Geelong and Hawthorn finals in 2018. May only joined us at the end of 2018, Lever missed through injury (from memory) Petracca only started dominating last season. In short our talent has improved but our culture hasn’t. 

Whats behind the Saints rapid rise? 
2018 Saints 16th, Dee’s win 2 finals

Ratten appointed Saints coach.

2019 Saints 14th, Dees 17th

End of 2019 Saints trade in Hill, Howard, Ryder, Jones and Butler. 
 

2020 Saints 6th win a final, Dees 9th

Ive used the Saints as an example because they have managed to turn it around in two seasons. They have some talented players but I wouldn’t say they’re an overly skilled side. Ratten has brought a culture and gameplan that their players have seemingly bought into. I just looked at the Saints best 22 for this year, I personally think if both lists are fit, player for player we have the better list.

This is spot on.

We're a club full of excuses.

So many seasons and "must win" games that we just don't even turn up for.

That ruthless winning culture was there for a short time in 2018, collapsed in a prelim and hasn't been seen since.

 

2 hours ago, frankie_d said:

The times I felt confident were the Northey years. He cared, and they followed his example. I was at the G one day when Strawb O'Dwyer stuffed something up on the outer wing. He screamed at the runner to go out and tell Strawb that his teammates had "worded their guts out" to get the ball to him and he'd let them down, and now he had a chance to make up for it over the rest of the game.

Daniher the next best, then daylight/moonlight/the-whole-of-the-universe to the rest.

 

 

1 hour ago, old dee said:

IMO those were the only times in 56 years that the other clubs worried about the MFC. The rest of the time we have been irrelevant. 

And yet even during those years we lost games to lower ranked teams and had runs of losses that cost us the double chance. There's a game I have a vhs replay of from 1990 against the Blues and the commentators refer to an article during the week referencing Collingwood players who had called us soft. We can out breathing fire in the Blues game and were up by 50 points or so just after half time. We went on to sneak in by a goal.

2 hours ago, frankie_d said:

The times I felt confident were the Northey years. He cared, and they followed his example. I was at the G one day when Strawb O'Dwyer stuffed something up on the outer wing. He screamed at the runner to go out and tell Strawb that his teammates had "worded their guts out" to get the ball to him and he'd let them down, and now he had a chance to make up for it over the rest of the game.

Daniher the next best, then daylight/moonlight/the-whole-of-the-universe to the rest.

 

I thought the same thing when reflecting on the posts here. Northey well ahead of the rest, and that playing group were daring and played for each otherm  and yes, Danahier bought in fully too.  

Those comments are gibberish.

They mean nothing.

He has no great insight into the current culture of the club and how that's being driven.

We're not winning enough games of footy but broad generalisations about culture are not a reliable means of explaining the problem.