Off-season outlook: Pressure will be on Melbourne and Simon Goodwin

[drysdale demon 4,836]

14 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Buckley, Hardwick, Goodwin? 

They all coach AFL sides

[Demonsone 2,037]

Chocco Williams, Yze, Burgess, no more excuses full stop!

[binman 42,980]

6 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I just don't see how this theory can be correlated with our current state as a footy side...................... 

 

Good lord jimmy, you seem not to have understood what I have said at all. Perhaps I was unclear, so i'll give it another go.

1. I just don't see how this theory can be correlated with our current state as a footy side. 

The theory is that the evidence suggests the coach does not play a very big factor in making a great team. Which to be clear, is not to say the coach is not important - the role of the senior coach in an AFL tis critical.

But players make great sides, not coaches. And i don't need Sam Walker to tell me that. I have 40 odd years of watching the dees fail under some pretty good coaches (Barrasi says hi) and other teams win flags (Scott says hi) to come to the same conclusion .

2. The players aren't ready to perform consistently due to a variety of reasons.

Sure, but at the end of the day they are professionals and just like i am responsible for my performance at work, not my boss, so are they. Once a game starts the buck stops with them not the coach.

That said, I noted the coach is responsible for motivation and creating the optimal environment and of selecting the right players. And in response to you critique that 'I missed out' key responsibilities, also noted that it goes without saying that developing and implementing the game plan is a key responsibility of a senior coach.

3. You speak about it in such simple terms. 

Really? I wouldn't have thought so, but maybe I need to simplify things even more given it appears you've misunderstood what i wrote. 

4. Using your example of the two games that in your view were the reason we didn't play finals last year, your diagnosis is that the players simply didn't 'turn up'..?!

Where did I say those two games were the reason we didn't play finals last year? I mean, I might have at the time, given losing those two games were in fact the reason we didn't play finals (personally I think the dogs game was the killer), but not in this thread. 

And why are you using quotes around the phrase 'turn up'? Are you quoting me?  If so, i'm not sure why given I never wrote those words. Perhaps they were paraphrasing quotes, if there is such a thing. If so, still wrong, given my 'diagnosis' for the two losses in Cairns was not 'the players simply didn't turn up'.

What I did say was that the players were clearly not switched on. That is on them as pros.  Unforgivable. Particularly the second game. But sure let them off the hook and blame Goody. I'm sure the players would love that. Or at least some. Steve may not so much.

But the players not being ready to play a season defining game was not the only 'diagnosis' for losing those games. I also said the players were simply too lazy to stop Freo's spread, just as they were against the dogs, and against the Swans they played stupid football in the wet and windy conditions.

I also noted that once a game starts it is 95%, maybe more, on the players. Sure that is subjective, but I stand by it and I'm glad to have Sir Alex Ferguson (and any number of other coaching luminaries) in my corner on that. And by the by the other 5% provides plenty of scope for the coach to be the reason a team losses a given game.

5. It's far more nuanced.

Good to know, i'll factor that into my analysis of footy from now on.

6. Just as it was when we consistently played an underdeveloped and underperforming Oscar McDonald for the amount of time we did in our side. These things fall on Goodwin. Selection, gameplan, connection, player positions, gameday strategy, messaging, communication etc etc.

You seem not to be able to let Omac go. Touching.

I totally agree that selection, game plan, connection, player positions, gameday strategy, messaging, communication etc fall on Goodwin as coach.

But not being facetious here (i promise) - it would be too simple to say it falls totally on him (noting that you didn't say that).  There are many other pieces of the puzzle and other people who have key responsibilities, which is why we have spent big on getting people like yze to the club.

7. Honestly, use google to find the evidence binman. It's there. And if you didn't hear it, then maybe you don't watch enough football. People from Ross Lyon to Jason Dunstall and many in between have made comment on how easy we are to play against. 

What is this business about evidence of people saying we are easy to play against?  You're right, there's probably plenty of examples to back up that argument. But that is not the the assertion I asked for evidence of. Your assertion I asked you to provide some evidence for was (my emphasis):

'there are many footy experts both in the media and or who work within the AFL who know full well that Goodwin's shortcomings as a coach in a variety of areas are the main contributing factor as to why we are a middle of the road side right now'.

 And, no i won't do the work to find the evidence. You can do that.

8. A head coach takes full responsibility for moulding a team over a period of time to play a certain way.

He/she might well do and as Old Dee noted the buck stops with the head coach. Which is why, historically they get sacked when success doesn't come (by the by this seems to be shifting somewhat - Hardwick being the obvious example - as AFL clubs start to realise the coach isn't the key factor at play).

But whilst they might take full responsibility, they are not in fact fully responsible for moulding a team over a period of time to play a certain way. Sure they are the most important element but as I noted there are many other pieces of the puzzle. For example  Jennings had  fair bit of responsibility for our game plan up to the end of 2018, McCartney was critical in terms of instilling a certain approach and guys like Yze and Williams will have similar responsibilities.

9. He has been too slow to make change to the list in general, positional change and change in the way play.

I agree that under goody (and Roos) the club has recruited too many similar type players - contested ball winners. And that we have not recruited enough outside players or elite kicks.  That's not all on him - again there is a team behind such decisions but he sets the agenda no doubt.

But collectively they brought in Lever and May to address the defensive weaknesses you highlighted and last year recruited Langdon to fill a glaring gap. May and Langdon are probably in the top 10 players we have recruited in the last 50 years in terms of impact.

And they went outside the square in selecting Kozzie and Jackson, two players with x fact that are a million miles from the glass eaters they have previously recruited. And in Rivers they have look to address the need for elite kicks, something they have continued to focus on this season with Bowey and  Laurie. Rosman is another x factor selection and Brown represents another pretty big change to the list given it signaled Tmac was unwanted.  

So in the last two years, half of his time as coach, Goody has hardly been slow to make changes to the list. 

As for being slow to make positional changes and changes to the way play are we watching the same team? 

I mean seriously, it is actually quite remarkable how much our game style (not the fundamentals) has changed since Goody started coaching us. To be honest if you can't see that i can't be bothered pointing out how. But the players we have recruited give a clue, as does the scores we concede,  how much we now score and our scoring to possession ratio, amongst a myriad of other indictors.  

And slow to make positional changes? Perhaps you mean positional changes during games. If so, then it is true he doesn't make many but it is really a subjective thing as to whether this is a bad thing or not.

But if you mean playing players in different positions week to week, he has been anything but slow to try different options. Tmac from back to forward, Petty from back to forward, Gus from the center to the wing (and back), Jones all over the shop, Harmes mid/tagger/half back, Smith forward/back, Weed as back up ruck in 2018 and then not again, etc etc. 

10. We've been losing in an almost identical manner for three years now under Goodwin, 

No we haven't. 

Goody has coached for four seasons. In 2017 and up to about the mid point of the 2018 season the common dominator of our losses was the best teams opening up and hurting us on the rebound by punishing us for our super aggressive high press and [censored] foots skills. We ran up big scores against the mid rung teams but the best teams not only beat us they did so by 5 or six goals. We then made significant changes to our game plan, stopped being so aggressive with our press and stopped running players of the half back line.

From that point to the end of the 2018 season we became the hardest team to score against in the league. And in 2019 and 2020 we remained pretty hard to score against, which is reflected in the fact we have less blow outs (even in 2019 when we had so many injuries). 

Another difference to the way we have lost in the four seasons Goody has been coaching is that a factor in our losses in 2019 and 2020 has been our woeful inside 50 to scoring ratio. That was not such an issue in 2017 and 2018, when we were much more efficient, a fact reflected in our high scoring.

So no, we haven't been losing in an almost identical manner under Goodwin, unless you mean the opposition has scored more than us in those losses, which if the case is an issue we have struggled with for 165 years. 

What i would say is there is certainly repeating themes about our losses (and many of our wins for that matter).

Probably one theme that has been there throughout Goody's tenure is our propensity to give up runs of unanswered goals. And i would argue another consistent theme in our losses is too many lazy players who don't put in the required effort. 

Other themes include turning the ball over too much, gifting easy goals to the opposition and failing to hit targets inside 50. 

The other obvious theme in 2019 and 2020 is so much effort for so little reward.

To be clear as senior coach Goody has a responsibility to address all these weakness and you could argue his game plan might magnify them. By the same token the player have to take level of responsibility and once the game starts most of the responsibility. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by binman

[DurriePirate 97]

3 hours ago, binman said:

So no, we haven't been losing in an almost identical manner under Goodwin, unless you mean the opposition has scored more than us in those losses, which if the case is an issue we have struggled with for 165 years. 

Oh boy did I enjoy this little gem. had myself a big ol laugh.

Binman does it again!

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

8 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

A head coach takes full responsibility for moulding a team over a period of time to play a certain way.

We've been losing in an almost identical manner for three years now under Goodwin, and he has been too slow to make change to the list in general, positional change and change in the way play.

If any Melbourne supporter disagrees with that last sentence, please give me a reason to listen you.

I'm on the record as supporting what Goody did up until 2018 as a job pretty well done. I don't think he really was provided with a huge chance to mold the list, he added Melk, Hibbo and Lewis to bring in some skill and then went out and won games.

If anything I think he was the victim of being a first time head coach surrounded by this club mantra of winning contested ball and being hard at it. The Roos, McCartney, Viney even Jason Taylor mantra was flowing full bore and we were winning more than we had previously, it's pretty easy to see where we fell in to a trap.

How much should've been changed faster than the end of 2018 and how much of that is on Goody? I'm not confident to say one way or the other. Our draft picks for a long time had a skill/speed/run component, way back to Hannan and Johnstone, Spargo, Fritsch, Baker, Jordon, Bedford, Chandler. Plus key defenders with Lever, May, Petty. Bringing in KK. We had Langdon pretty much locked in a year before he came too.

I'll give him some benefit of the doubt with the list, there's too many others responsible for the failings too. Changes to game plan - we should've seen more in 2019 but the whole year was a dumpster fire, 2020 was better at least with the defensive zone and after a bad start with the tempo coming under control. Positional changes - meh, we've had so many one dimensional players for so long it's hard to move them around.

The big faults are failing to turn over assistants and failing to create the right processes that prevent issues building up. We've needed a skills coach for a long time. We've needed a fresh voice for the midfield. We've needed to train more on MCG sized ovals. Etc etc. Those kind of little details that add up to important things on the ground are where he's lacking. Attention to details is one of the most vital things for a coach in any sport and I don't think Goody really has it

[rjay 24,928]

11 hours ago, binman said:

and other teams win flags (Scott says hi)

When you have a great team sometimes the art of coaching is to stay out of the way.

Scott, 2011

Joyce, 1988

[one_demon 826]

Well they've changed everyone around him so if we fail next year, there's only one change left to make

[Big Carl 333]

On 12/30/2020 at 3:35 PM, binman said:

Why? Surely many coaches improve in all sorts of ways, including game day coaching, as they gain experience.

Goody has made a point about being a life time learner so I can't see why he can't improve his coaching.

Saying it won’t make it happen. He won’t change. 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

10 hours ago, Big Carl said:

Saying it won’t make it happen. He won’t change. 

It will be difficult for him to change his match day, in the box processing of gmes. Goody a life time learner?  I am not aware of any educational qualifications.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Half forward flank

[Sir Why You Little 37,042]

Goodwin has 12 weeks of the ‘21  season to prove himself

Winning is the Barometer 

[Roost it far 8,277]

To say the coach doesn’t win matches is ludicrous in the extreme. Are we saying that Roos didn’t mastermind Sydney’s rise or Blight didn’t win Adelaide a flag or Beveridge get the Doggies over the line. Clarkson says hi in 08. 
Some clown just wrote a thesis trying to say a coach isn’t important.  A coach is paramount to success...period

Edited January 8, 2021 by Roost it far

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,841]

On 1/5/2021 at 9:36 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

Yes i am waiting on this one too. 
I heard a whisper about 2 days ago

We shall see....

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/third-afl-coach-splits-with-wife-as-devastating-impact-of-2020-season-grows/news-story/e1a9388701124dfa8ef6fb92ab6ae07e

News.com.au reporting a third coach has split with this wife but has refused to name the coach.

Not suggesting it’s Goodwin, but....

[Dr. Gonzo 24,221]

8 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/third-afl-coach-splits-with-wife-as-devastating-impact-of-2020-season-grows/news-story/e1a9388701124dfa8ef6fb92ab6ae07e

News.com.au reporting a third coach has split with this wife but has refused to name the coach.

Not suggesting it’s Goodwin, but....

Lol at blaming the hubs because these meatheads can't keep their [censored] in their pants

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,841]

Quite a punishing first 6 weeks for Goody and he’ll need to be 4-2 at worst if he’s any change of making finals and hence keeping his job. We need to be consistently ahead of the ledger all season as we have a penchant under Goodwin for dropping games to bad teams in the second half of seasons for absolutey no good reason and it coming back to cost us top 4 and top 8 spots in 2017, 2018 and 2020)

(2017 - North and Collingwood. 2018 - St Kilda. 2019 - St Kilda and Sydney 2020- Sydney)

We also generally have a poor to mediocre first 5 to 6 rounds under Goodwin forcing us to go on 3-4 winning streaks mid season such as 2017 and 2020.

The first 6 rounds are very punishing as follows:

Fremantle - Will make us fight to the last minute under Longmuir. If the side goes to sleep for a quarter, we will lose this game.

St Kilda - Were a pretty serious side in 2020 and will only go up a notch at Marvel.

GWS - Have a great record in Canberra. Even better than Giants Stadium.

Geelong - Always hard to beat but we’ve come very close in the last two home and away game we’ve played them at the G. A season defining game for  Goodwin IMO and has yet to beat Geelong in the regular season.

Hawthorn - We have no business losing this game and Goodwin has a great recent record over the Hawks.

Richmond - Goodwin also hasn’t beaten Richmond and hasn’t really gotten close aside from a terrific game of footy on Anzac Eve 2017. He needs to beat one of Richmond or Geelong in the first 6 rounds to show that we’re on the upward trend under Goodwin and to take our first major scalp since late 2018.

We then have 4 teams that are likely to highly likely to miss finals. A 4-2 or 5-1 start could really set up our season assuming we don’t have any accidents.

A big first up 6 weeks.

[rjay 24,928]

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/third-afl-coach-splits-with-wife-as-devastating-impact-of-2020-season-grows/news-story/e1a9388701124dfa8ef6fb92ab6ae07e

News.com.au reporting a third coach has split with this wife but has refused to name the coach.

Not suggesting it’s Goodwin, but....

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lol at blaming the hubs because these meatheads can't keep their [censored] in their pants

Are they saying that the 3rd coach has split because of another relationship/s?

There are other reasons marriages split and sometimes it's not even the male of the partnership caught with their pants down.

Edited January 9, 2021 by rjay

[Sir Why You Little 37,042]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/third-afl-coach-splits-with-wife-as-devastating-impact-of-2020-season-grows/news-story/e1a9388701124dfa8ef6fb92ab6ae07e

News.com.au reporting a third coach has split with this wife but has refused to name the coach.

Not suggesting it’s Goodwin, but....

I only heard a whisper...

he has a job to do

[dazzledavey36 54,946]

4 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lol at blaming the hubs because these meatheads can't keep their [censored] in their pants

Stupid comment to suggest this is the case with the unknown 3rd coach.

[old dee 23,792]

18 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Stupid comment to suggest this is the case with the unknown 3rd coach.

I think it is a low odds bet who it is!

[old55 23,590]

4 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Quite a punishing first 6 weeks for Goody and he’ll need to be 4-2 at worst if he’s any change of making finals and hence keeping his job. We need to be consistently ahead of the ledger all season as we have a penchant under Goodwin for dropping games to bad teams in the second half of seasons for absolutey no good reason and it coming back to cost us top 4 and top 8 spots in 2017, 2018 and 2020)

(2017 - North and Collingwood. 2018 - St Kilda. 2019 - St Kilda and Sydney 2020- Sydney)

We also generally have a poor to mediocre first 5 to 6 rounds under Goodwin forcing us to go on 3-4 winning streaks mid season such as 2017 and 2020.

The first 6 rounds are very punishing as follows:

Fremantle - Will make us fight to the last minute under Longmuir. If the side goes to sleep for a quarter, we will lose this game.

St Kilda - Were a pretty serious side in 2020 and will only go up a notch at Marvel.

GWS - Have a great record in Canberra. Even better than Giants Stadium.

Geelong - Always hard to beat but we’ve come very close in the last two home and away game we’ve played them at the G. A season defining game for  Goodwin IMO and has yet to beat Geelong in the regular season.

Hawthorn - We have no business losing this game and Goodwin has a great recent record over the Hawks.

Richmond - Goodwin also hasn’t beaten Richmond and hasn’t really gotten close aside from a terrific game of footy on Anzac Eve 2017. He needs to beat one of Richmond or Geelong in the first 6 rounds to show that we’re on the upward trend under Goodwin and to take our first major scalp since late 2018.

We then have 4 teams that are likely to highly likely to miss finals. A 4-2 or 5-1 start could really set up our season assuming we don’t have any accidents.

A big first up 6 weeks.

Richmond and Geelong played in the GF and St.Kilda finished 5th and we're playing them away. 4-2 will be on target for top 4 and 5-1 will be on track for GF. 3-3 is on par for finals.

[dazzledavey36 54,946]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

I think it is a low odds bet who it is!

We all knew it was Goodwin all along. Stating that he's been unfaithful is plain stupid on the base of no facts or evidence. 

[one_demon 826]

I would imagine being an AFL coach would put a lot of strain on relationships 

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,841]

2 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

Richmond and Geelong played in the GF and St.Kilda finished 5th and we're playing them away. 4-2 will be on target for top 4 and 5-1 will be on track for GF. 3-3 is on par for finals.

In theory yes but it’s a long season, some of last years poor to average sides might be much improved next year and we habitually stuff up 1 or 2 games when we’re hot favourites.

A strong start is imperative if we’re any chance of finals given our proven lack of consistency.

3-3 and it sounds like another middle of the road and inconsistent Goodwin season IMO.

[old55 23,590]

45 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

In theory yes but it’s a long season, some of last years poor to average sides might be much improved next year and we habitually stuff up 1 or 2 games when we’re hot favourites.

A strong start is imperative if we’re any chance of finals given our proven lack of consistency.

3-3 and it sounds like another middle of the road and inconsistent Goodwin season IMO.

You said minimum 4-2 to have any chance of making finals.  I don't think that's correct and I've explained why.

I agree we must make finals but Goodwin won't  be sacked if we're 3-3.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Pollyanna

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,841]

31 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

You said minimum 4-2 to have any chance of making finals.  I don't think that's correct and I've explained why.

I agree we must make finals but Goodwin won't  be sacked if we're 3-3.

And I agree that he won’t be sacked off 3-3 but I reckon he’ll have a bit of work to do if we’re only breaking even after rd 6.

[old dee 23,792]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

We all knew it was Goodwin all along. Stating that he's been unfaithful is plain stupid on the base of no facts or evidence. 

Not sure if that is aimed at me dd.but I never said anything about him.